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Posted: 2/20/2008 5:11:26 PM EDT
| Around the boards and especially in the Masada thread there's alot of animosity toward Bushmaster, but I don't see why. Is it because they don't adhere to the "mil-spec" as far as bolts, barrels, etc? With the increased availability of "mil -spec" rifles from places like CMMG and other places made everyone snobs? When colt was the only game in town for all those special little features, I don't recall this much hate toward the other, more affordable brands. Anybody mind explaining this to me? Is everybody but-hurt because magpul wont be making the masada and THATS the sand in the proverbial mangina? |
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I love my Bushy M-4 and have never had any problems. It's just a matter of choice and taste. In fact, I see where MidwayUSA is now carrying a complete BCG from Bushmaster -- a nice step up from all of their DPMS parts. And, I bought an extra one for only $126 (complete BCG). Now, I also have a JP Enterprises JP-15 precision rifle with its specially treated stainless steel (pearl black) bolt carrier and LMT bolt. I bought a backup one like that too. The special JP carrier is also now being sold by MidwayUSA for about $170. |
I don't think it is Koolaide drinking when I have seen that out of a batch of 25 rifles from BM, 5 had the bolts break in two at the cam pin before 500 rds and nearly half had loose carrier keys, either poorly staked or not at all... Thankfully these were only stop-gap guns ordered for use only while an order from colt was back-ordered. Since, Colts arrived and BM guns are Miles gear only...
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Has anyone here ever seen a BM bolt or carrier break? I'm curious because I have not . I also am not a gunsmith, armorer or instructor either. BM is the the leading producer for the civilian market by far, so there are more bushmasters out there to have a problem with than any other brand. No "M4 feed ramps" but never had a FTF, 1/9 twist but accuracy = to my Colt, "improperly staked key" that never came loose, "non MP bolt" than never broke, "H buffer" that I never missed, "no parkerizing under the FSB" who cares. I'll tell you what I do like: no sear block, no stupid screw in the front pivot, no "C" shaped carrier, and no odd size trigger pins. Buy what you like and shoot the shit out of it. |
No, that would be under the "some have had issues" part of my statement. The kool aid part is the ones that have "heard or was told......" w/o proof or personal expierence. Even in the Army shooting full auto I personally have never seen a bolt or carrier fail. But being a machinist for 20 years I also realize that it can happen. SPC, NDT or batch testing is not 100%!!! 5 of 25 is totally "unacceptable"...... I dont care who the manufacturer was. 
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| I do not hate BM. I do however question their fixing what is not broken. BM acquired Cobb Mfg. and I understand their intent is to replace the LW barrels that Cobb previously used with success with their own BM barrels. I want to see a test on the BM barrels and available profiles and weights. So far BM is a -1 for this approach in my book |
Needless to say when we contacted BM we were not pleased... 
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No Hate, But I would not buy one. I think the last few years Bushmaster let quality slip and then quickly sold off the company. Now the new management is a mess and they are taken on new projects (Masade ACR)before they correct old quality control problems/customer service complaints. Better choices out there in the AR world right now. Plus, other companys have much better customer service. Rock River Arms is one of those company's. John |
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FACTORY GUN RECOMMENDATIONS and QUALITY CONSIDERATIONS: I'm constantly buying, selling, and trading AR15's. Something I have noticed over the years is that a new or unknown comany will come on the market and make a very good product at a very good price when they first start out. As the word get's out about how good the product is and how and the company get's flooded with a demand for their product. Suddenly the price goes up and the quality goes down. This has happened to even larger companies. For example, a department / agency buys a set number of guns and runs them hard and has zero problems. Another department / agency buys from the same company a year or two later and has nothing but problems. In the mid - late 90's a unnamed company made some pretty nice AR15's. I've owned SEVERAL of their guns in the last decade and a half. I noticed that in 1999 with Y2K approaching the quality went down and the prices went up. Around 2001 I noticed that the quality and attention to detail started to slowly go back up, but the guns still had some minor short comings. After the Assault Weapons Ban sunset in 2004 this companies quality control hit an all time low and the prices went up dramatically. From what I have seen over the years, supply and demand has a big effect on the AR15 market. A year ago I may have recommended "Company X" because they were putting out a quality product for a economical price, a lot can change in a year (quality / prices) and I may no longer recommend that company's products. Thanks to guys like Rob_S for making a comparison chart, which helps out a lot of new / first time buyers. ************************************************ I recently wrote the following on another board, in reference to Bushmaster: As of late Bushmaster has gotten a bad reputation, especially on the internet. In the not so distant past, Bushmaster was considered a decent product by most. In recent years Bushmaster's quality has gone down while their prices have gone up. Locally a Bushmaster M4 sells for approximately $1,000 - $1,100, I can purchase a LMT M4 for $965. For the price, it's a no brainer, get the LMT. That being said I have seen a lot of Bushmaster AR's in tactical training classes over the last 8 or so years. The number one problem that I've seen with factory Bushmaster guns is the gas key is not properly staked resulting in malfunctions. I have owned several Bushmaster AR's over the years and put thousands of rounds through the guns. Most without a problem. Someone asked me to prove the statement I made above and what follows is my response: Bushmaster cuts a lot of corners. Colt builds it's guns per the info outlined in the Technical Data Package. LMT follows closely behind Colt. Here is a comparison chart that rob_s made. The chart is posted with Rob's permission:  Compare LMT and Bushmaster. The following is a list of features / services performed on LMT's standard guns that Bushmaster does NOT do: -MPI Bolt -Pressure Test (HTP) Bolt -Shot Peen Bolt -Black Extractor Insert -Properly staked gas key -M16 Bolt Carrier -MilSpec Barrel Steel (Bushmaster uses 4150, but it's not the same grade as defined in the TDP) -MPI Barrel -Pressure Test Barrel -1/7" Rifling Twist -M4 Feedramps -"F" Marked Front sight base (needed for flat top receivers....this is why you need the taller front sight post for Bushmasters) -Milspec carbine receiver extention (this is why you can't fit a SOPMOD, Vltor, or any other Milspec stock directly onto a Bushmaster) -Staked castle nut (this is why sometimes the castle nut on the receiver extention (carbine buffer tube) comes loose on Bushmasters) -"H" Buffer (heavy carbine buffer) So there is all of the things that Bushmaster DOESN'T do. Why would you PAY MORE and GET LESS. I use to recommend Bushmaster, I have owned literally dozens of Bushmaster's over the years. I have noticed that when the demand goes up, Bushmaster's quality goes down. This was very noticable around Y2K and at the end of the Assault Weapon's Ban. In fact since the sunset of the Assault Weapon's Ban, Bushmaster's quality has never gotten back to the point that it was in the 1990's and early 2000's (with a noticable drop in quality shortly before and after Y2K). I'm not bashing Bushmaster, but I always consider what I'm getting for my money. If a store had a Bushmaster M4 and a Colt M4 sitting side by side and both guns were the exact same price, I would take the Colt EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. Now if the Bushmaster M4 is $800 and the Colt is $1,200, (and if the quality of the Bushmaster was on par with what they were building in the 1990's), I have no problem buying or recommending the Bushmaster. All things considered, why would a person pay $1,100 for a Bushmaster M4 when you can get a LMT M4 for over $100 less? |
| I love my bushmaster, but I have had a few issues with it- the carrier key came loose and had to be restaked. The roll pin somehow fell out and the gas tube came loose as well. Both of these were a simple fix, and since then I haven't had a problem with anything. |
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What a bunch of crap. I work for a state police agency that has purchased just under 2000 of their rifles. They have been extremely reliable, and trouble-free. I also spent a week at the manufacturing plant in Maine, and I can tell you that the people that work there are extremely passionate about building a great product. Their quality control is extremely impressive. I challenge anybody here that has first hand experience with slightly under 2000 rifles from any manufacturer to post your results with mine. Personally, I think that there are a bunch of "Armchair Commandos" who profess to be the end-all expert on the AR-15 rifle, and anybody who purchases anything other than their endorsed company is just an idiot. I don't give a flying flip about your "mil-specs". I was involved in establishing the specs for my agency's rifle, and Bushmaster stepped up to the plate, and manufactured the rifle to our specs, and they work everytime that we pull trigger. Every single time. We worked first hand with the manufacturer, they built what we wanted, we taught our people how to maintain, and shoot the weapon, and we have an extremely reliable and trouble free weapon system that our personnel can protect the public and theirselves with. That's the bottom line folks. If you think that your semiauto Colt, Oly, Stag, or LMT is mil-spec, you are sadly mistaken. None of those companies sell an entirely mil-spec semiauto weapon. There may very well be a few of your parts that meet DOD standards, but an AR-15 is a totally different monster than a M16. Mil-specs are ridiculous standards, because the .gov is the 1000 pound gorilla that can pull these ridiculous specs out of thin air. About 80% of their standards don't have a damn thing to to do with reliability or accuracy. Most are carryovers from an era when the .gov purchased weapons during a time of war, when that was the only method of culling out manufacturers who were not in "the loop". These worthless specs were established by the old War Department, and the early era of the DOD to be able to deny contracts to companies who were not in the politcal cliche. Don't pay attention to the weekend warriors, who have owned a total of 5 or less AR-15 based weapons in their lifetimes. Go with what works, and buy a quality weapon system, whether it be a BM, Colt, LMT, Stag, or whatever, and let the fat-ass couch potatoes who have never used one in combat blab thier crap to their fellow morons. NOTE: I modified my original post, because my numbers were incorrect. We are currently at 1987 rifles, as of three weeks ago. So my initial claim of "over 2000" was incorrect. My apologies for being off count by 25. |
That's nice, but the 25 we got, sure that isn't 2000, sucked. Broken bolts in less than 500 rds and loose carrier keys just dont pop up...it comes from QC. We contacted them & got new bolts, but our faith in them had already taken a hit. That is why they were cylced out and sent to the training dept. I don't blame employees, I don't blame management, but the expirence was real and therefore I have a poor opinion of them. |
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My AR is a Bushmaster bought in 02 and I've never had a problem, though I've only fired a few thousand rounds through it. OK, I'll admit I've had a couple fail to feeds, but those were clear cases of crappy magazines. So, I really like my bushmaster. However, what's happened recently seems to be that they've concerned their interests in many other areas (working with remington to make a realtree gun, buying up Cobb, acquiring the MASADA, etc) and have done two things: 1. Haven't kept up with the market -Since the AWB has expired and the AR has seemingly mushroomed in popularity, many other competitors are releasing quality, Mil Spec AR's, often with cutting edge configurations and accessories (even the S&W M&P's have the option of being loaded with Troy accessories) at significantly more reasonable prices (CMMG, LMT to a Degree, Stag, etc all for WELL under 1k), Bushmaster has pretty much kept putting forth the same guns that might have been appealing on the market in the middle of the AWB. 2. Have faltered on quality control and apparently customer service -I've never had to deal with Customer Service, nor have I had a problem with my gun, as I've stated. However, I've heard of enough accounts of more recent bushmaster purchases being plagued with QC type problems. I think since they've been under new management (Cerberus, yes?), they seem to have shifted their concerns more with expanding the company rather than ensuring the customer is completely satisfied with the product. All in all, if I were purchasing an AR right now, I'd definitely look at companies other than bushmaster. Hell, even Colts seem to be less of a pipe dream anymore. |
How many of those 25 rifles had broken bolts? I had a new personally owned Colt LE6920 that broke a bolt (cracked at the cam pin hole) within the first 700 to 1000 rounds. I didn't run out and condemn Colt as not being a great manufacturer, just like I didn't run down Ford when my wife's Expedition shit the transmission at 6000 miles. I have yet to see a broken bolt in any of our Bushmasters, or even an improperly staked carrier key screw. |
Cutting corners would be more like not putting taper pins in a FSB and skipping the push pin weep hole. That is cutting corners. Not having M4 feed ramps is not cutting corners, it is not applying a update. Where do you find a bushmaster for $1100? They are $850 at thr Armory. Bushie has 1/7 twist, the last one I bought had a black insert ( tax time special), sell H buffers. and having a non milspec extension doent stop the rifle from working. |
I stated it eariler, but 5 of 25 broke completely in two at the cam pin while over half would fire a few rounds and stop in half-battery...thus the loose keys. We only ordered the BM guns as a stop-gap since we needed to arm a bunch of new hires right away and the colts we had requested were on back-order for quite some time. Since then, the Colts arrived and the BM became MILES gear only. Furthermore, we bought 25 RRAs, once again, waiting for the Colts. The only issue with them is that the triggers went to shit faster than they should have...& few charging handles broke up near the end along with a few springs. In contrast, we have a decent ammount of colts that are over 10 years old & have over 75,000 rds through them without major issues. The newer ones, bought to replace the BMS & RRAs run perfect. We shoot more than normal and train more than normal (we qual every 3 months & if you fail you are gone) Our ammo budget in nealry unlimted & our guns really get worked over, so between the three brands we have seen all types of things break. Any part on any gun can break any time, but Colts failures are very few and far between. Maybe we are just lucky. Regardless, if you have a gun that has Zeros issues, no matter the maker, than you have a good gun. I just haven't seen many BMs lately that don't have issues. |
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I'll admit it: I drank the Bushmaster Kool-Aid and ordered one last week. Should be in by mid-March. I chose BM for several reasons, biggest of which was price: It was the least expensive of all the 20" A2 target models. I looked at Armalite, BM, High Standard, RRA. All appeared to be about the same in terms of finish, except oddly enough for the Armalite: The model I looked at was very rough; I kinda suspected it was a parts gun at first. I was surprised because I expected better from Armalite, especially since it was about $150 more than a BM. The only one that was close in price was the High Standard, and although I thought it had a very good fit and finish it's a new company that has little if any history -- good or bad -- to rely on. Bushmaster, OTOH, was a known quantity, and although there are some people here who would not recommend it based on recent QC issues virtually everyone agrees their customer service is first-rate. After it comes in I'm going to look over it very carefully and if anything looks amiss (such as a canted front sight) the dealer said it's going back or getting replaced before I buy it. So in summary, the BM had what I was looking for at the price I could afford. Combine that with good customer service and warranty and I decided for me at this time it was the best value. I was able to get a BM plus a dozen mags for about what I would have paid for a comparable Colt model. So for me, it's worked out so far. |
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Guys, if these semiauto AR's were built to DOD Mil-Spec standards, you would likely be paying Colt prices+ for your rifles. DOD specs are absolutely NOT necessary for a reliable weapon that will outlast you. Why the addiction to Mil-spec, when nobody manufactures a semiauto rifle to specs that don't exist in the civilian market? Just because a glossy advertisement says "Mil-Spec", don't believe it! There are no semiauto mil-specs, and even if there were, you would be paying for a rifle built to specs that don't have a damn thing to do with accuracy, reliability, or quality. This "Mil-Spec" shit has become like crack cocaine to some folks on this board. Trust me, if your rifle didn't come from a US Military contract, then it's not Mil-Spec, regardless of who assembled it. I know you KoolAid drinkers are hating me right now, but the truth hurts sometimes when you have wasted your hard earned cash to have your favorite sports team (I mean gun manufacturer) engraved on teh side of the receiver. Buy about 2000 rifles of your favorite brand, shoot the shit out of each one of them, and then come and present your case to me. Otherwise, have another sip of your favorite flavor of Kool-Aid. |
I don't disagree at all. As a matter of fact, you stated it well. The mil-spec craze is, frankly, taken to a foolish extreme... |
Thanks squibround. Trust me, I'm not trying to sell anybody's brand of AR's. Almost all of them are very good, most are excellent, but all manufacturers will make guns that slip through the cracks of Quality Control. It's just the nature of the beast. I have a boring old A3 DPMS 20-inch with a Gov't profile barrel that has so many rounds through it that it defys belief. It has the original gas rings, bolt, carrier, barrel, extractor, ejector, and springs. It's a 100% reliable weapon. Hell, the carrier key is staked, but it barely touches the screws. The barrel isn't pressure tested, Magnetic particulate tested, and neither is the bolt. It just runs, and runs, and runs. Does that mean that DPMS is the best out there? Hell no! But the bottom line is that it is a great weapon, and guess what? There probably isn't a damn thing that is mil-spec on it. GASP!!!!!! That rifle has well over 10,000 rounds through it, much of those are 5.56 NATO, not .223. No FTF, FTE, NADA! Guys......I'm not trying to sell you on a brand. Just let go of your Mil-Spec wet dreams for semiauto weapons. They really don't exist outside of your imagination. Buy something that works for you, and enjoy it. If it doesn't work, fix it. These rifles can be repaired & maintained by a 10 year old. They are mechanical devices, and even the beloved and flawless Colts will sometimes break. Just fix it, and shoot it enough to learn to bank your life on it. Quit this childish, baseless brand bashing. Any group of parts that work together to cause an effect is a mechanical device. When one of those parts fails to function, as designed, the whole machine breaks down. No biggie, just fix the problem and move on. Newsflash: Even "Mil-Spec" US Government guns break down. I know it's tough to believe, but they do. They have mechanisms in place to fix those mil-spec guns, and get them operational again. |
Once again, well said...& for the DPMS, it does not surprise me...we had colts that the former armorer (One foot out the door to retirement & didn't care) had neglected and failed to do any PM on. We shot the shit out of them only to find out once the new amorer pulled them apart, that the throat erosion was terrible & the extractor springs were broken for apparently a very long time, but guess what? The guns ran without a hitch. I agree, every brand makes flawless guns & every brand makes lemons...no better words were said when you stated to get a gun that works & shoot the hell out of it.
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No doubt squibround, there are lemons in every brand. As long as there is a human presence in the mix, there will be mistakes. Again, I don't give a flying flip about what brand you buy. I've seen Colts, Bushmasters, DPMS, Oly's, and a few others that were first class turds. I/we identified the problem, made the necessary corrections, and the guns ran like they should. Period. There will always be some who refuse to realize this, and when they encounter an issue, will throw a particular brand "under the bus" and attempt to influence others. It reminds me of a bunch of school girls arguing over what brand of purse is "better". If your Oly runs better than my DPMS or Bushy, then I need to address the problem, so that we can both be on the same page. If you ain't USGI then you aint MIL-SPEC!!!!! PERIOD!! Realize it, get over it, and be thankful that your rifle doesn't have to be within tolerances that are politically motivated, and frankly a bunch of BS that doesn't have any affect on it's performance. |
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Quoted: What a bunch of crap. I work for a state police agency that has purchased just under 2000 of their rifles. They have been extremely reliable, and trouble-free. I also spent a week at the manufacturing plant in Maine, and I can tell you that the people that work there are extremely passionate about building a great product. Their quality control is extremely impressive. I challenge anybody here that has first hand experience with slightly under 2000 rifles from any manufacturer to post your results with mine. Personally, I think that there are a bunch of "Armchair Commandos" who profess to be the end-all expert on the AR-15 rifle, and anybody who purchases anything other than their endorsed company is just an idiot. I don't give a flying flip about your "mil-specs". I was involved in establishing the specs for my agency's rifle, and Bushmaster stepped up to the plate, and manufactured the rifle to our specs, and they work everytime that we pull trigger. Every single time. We worked first hand with the manufacturer, they built what we wanted, we taught our people how to maintain, and shoot the weapon, and we have an extremely reliable and trouble free weapon system that our personnel can protect the public and theirselves with. That's the bottom line folks. If you think that your semiauto Colt, Oly, Stag, or LMT is mil-spec, you are sadly mistaken. None of those companies sell an entirely mil-spec semiauto weapon. There may very well be a few of your parts that meet DOD standards, but an AR-15 is a totally different monster than a M16. Mil-specs are ridiculous standards, because the .gov is the 1000 pound gorilla that can pull these ridiculous specs out of thin air. About 80% of their standards don't have a damn thing to to do with reliability or accuracy. Most are carryovers from an era when the .gov purchased weapons during a time of war, when that was the only method of culling out manufacturers who were not in "the loop". These worthless specs were established by the old War Department, and the early era of the DOD to be able to deny contracts to companies who were not in the politcal cliche. Don't pay attention to the weekend warriors, who have owned a total of 5 or less AR-15 based weapons in their lifetimes. Go with what works, and buy a quality weapon system, whether it be a BM, Colt, LMT, Stag, or whatever, and let the fat-ass couch potatoes who have never used one in combat blab thier crap to their fellow morons. NOTE: I modified my original post, because my numbers were incorrect. We are currently at 1987 rifles, as of three weeks ago. So my initial claim of "over 2000" was incorrect. My apologies for being off count by 25. [/quote Glad you like your Bushmasters. But there are better choices out there in 2008 for the money. They might of been the AR Company from 1994-2004 but there old management ran the company into the ground right before they sold the company. Bushmaster was bought by a large corporation called Cerburus Capital Management, L.P. This large corporation also bought Remington ARMS. Hopefully they can turn Bushmaster around as it will not be an easy task with current competition being as good as they are. Quality control and customer service at Bushmaster has been going down the last few years and they are buying and adding guns to there catalog (Masada ACR, Cobb firearms) before they correct the problems with the rifles they currently manufacture. John |
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My take on the TDP is this..it doesnt mean better quality its just a garuntee of a certain level of quality for the government because they know its being made by the lowest bidder and they want more than what there paying for or a garuntee of more than what there paying for. Granted we dont by rifles by the thousands...my garuntee of quality is building my own..or in my state rebuilding old pre-bans.Way back H&R M16s sucked so the government got what they payed for with no garuntees..maybe thats why the TDP is so important its a garuntee of a certain level of quality,uniformity and consistency. Maybe the civilian industrie should set a standard thats adhered to and then the biggest choice would simply be brand as everything would conform to a certain standard for money paid. |
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sucks that some of you have had bad CS with Bushmaster. were speaking to the CS guy in a professional tone of voice? or maybe just yelling and spouting off about how those guys at ar-15 were right and you should have bought a Colt or S&W or X other brand, or as "doorgunner" pointed out some nonsense about mil-spec? i've personally been on the phone with bushmaster a couple times over the last three months, they've always been very polite, curtious, and professional... my roomate used to work in a gunshop, delt with them from time to time, called them the other week looking to replace a castle nut he'd used or lost or something{didn't get whole story} but the CS guy remembered him from doing buisness with him/the shop he worked for well over a year ago, and went ahead and including shipping, dropped the castle nut in the mail free of charge... one of the guys i spoke too even remembered me and my reason for calling* *(sent an BAR-10 off to get freefloated), flashhider had been welded on for some dumb reason on the 20" barrel, but they were glad to drill/cut it off, add the ventilated freefloat tube, replace the flashhider with a new one{not welded this time}, cut the notch into the charging handle as requested{for addition at somepoint of a taclatch so i can more readily clear the scope while charging the rifle} a few other little things and shipped it right back to me, only problems i had were a screw-up with the credit card company{i was using someone elses, i don't own one}. to be fair the finish on the "modded" charging handle wasn't AS perfect as it could have been, and it took them a day or two to get in/find the propper .30 cal bored matching "izzy" muzzlebreak/suppressor to replace the old one. but other than taking a bit of time {and remember the credit card thing and the fact that i was shipping/recieving right before christmas and called a couple times to check the progress} to get it back to me, i really have no complaints, and am quite satisfied... i'm not saying someone there maybe hasn't had a bad day and came off as an ass to a customer or something, or hell maybe you did just get treated like shit{by a rep or by the quality of actual service or product you recived), i wasn't there and don't know everyones expierences, but all (3) of my Bushys run great, and i've yet to have anything but a pleasent expierence with them... and carried over from the "S&W or Bushmaster" thread for the butthurt and angry S&W coolaid drinkers, though i said i didn't dislike the rifle(and i don't, if it works for you and you like it, own it, shoot it, enjoy it), and mentioned i had unremarkable(meaning not great, not bad) CS with S&W on a m39 my father needed a sight replaced on, Bushmasters CS was infact remarkable... i do wish Bushmaster would offer the option of threading on their 20" "predator" model. maybe, with time?.. and though i would show my support for them i am not an employ, or paid by them or anything, and FWIW the majority of my next three{i'm thinking a pair of matching kiss m4s projects, and a non-carbon 9mm) will probabally be coming from CMMG as they do offer a few options that Bushmaster currently does not , just trying to relate my expierences... speaking of showing support, i do wish they'd thrown in a nice bumper sticker or something like Larue does(great CS btw), so i could show show my support for their "bad" CS and "subpar" non-.milspec products... |
I'm a USAF CATM Instructor, I teach, handle and shoot everything from the Mk19 on down. I can tell you from handling over 20,000 rifles from both Colt and FN, that there specs far excede Bushmasters. Nothing against Bushmaster, but we have had Instructors bring in there civilian model AR-15's and run them against ours. Most do good at first, but when the rounds count starts to climb, as does in combat, things tend to break, nothing big, just small parts that are easily replaceable, but prevent the weapon from working. There is a reson we have a high standard in AR-15/M4 weapons, cause when PL1 resources and peoples lives are on the line you have to have and trust in the best weapon. Just my 2 cents. |
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