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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR vs. Mini-14 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/24/2008 11:34:42 AM EDT
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This is the year that I will add a 223 semi-auto to my gun safe. I've read a lot about the AR and all the different variants of it. However, I live in the People's Republic of California, so my options are a little more limited - maybe a LOT more limited - than you lucky guys in other states. I have done research on the OLLs at calguns.net, so I'm aware of the possibilities of going the DIY route. But, I still read stories about guys whose rifle gets confiscated and they spend a lot of court time trying to get it back. Some guys get off but never see the rifle again. I don't feel like being the test case for some anxious Asst DA, so I'm also looking at Ruger Mini-14's. The first thing I notice about the Mini-14, other than its legality, is its lack of out-of-the-box accuracy. There is a major cottage industry built up around taking Ruger's semi-auto products and making them shoot like they should. I'm not a match shooter, but I know there will be some steps I would take, like bedding and a trigger job. My question here has to do with the basic differences between the two rifles. I own a CMP Garand, so I'm very familiar with the gas-operated bolt via an operating rod. The Mini-14 is basically the same system, with an operating rod pushed by the gas from the gas port. The gasses stay up in the gas cylinder. The AR, however, ports the gasses all the way back to the bolt itself (help me here), with a big buffer tube extending back into the stock. What implications does this have in keeping the rifle clean? Does the AR require more maintenance and attention to detail to make sure that the gas system continues to operate? |
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Welcome to the board. Waited a bit to jump in there, huh? I have a mini 14, hasn't been to the range in years. Sits in the safe, since I can't bring myself to sell it. Good, reliable minute of pie plate accuracy. Ah, the AR. Understanding that cleaning and maintainance are part of the fun, I find the AR to be a vastly superior rifle. Accurate, and great. I am a believer. Get a piston upper if it is an issue to you, and no matter what you do, take a newbie to the range. |
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There's not much more to AR maintenance than any other platform. Yes, the gas system does vent back into the upper and carbon builds up in the upper and on the bolt/carrier assembly, but this isn't anything that a few minutes with some CLP, a brush, and rag wont take care of. I own both, and actually find AR maintenance a bit easier, but neither one is bad. |
| I suffer from the same geographical condition you do, and have one OLL running and another in about mid-build. Rumor has it that Bill Ruger was one of the influencing forces behind the assault weapons ban as it stands so that had some influence on my decision. I also believe that the Mini-14 is badly overpriced for such poor out of the box accuracy. I've heard there are things you can do to make it better, but why start with a fixer upper when for the same price you can start w/ accurate and build up? Ithink the final straw for me was dodging brass from 30 feet or so as some guy several benches down firing his mini. |
IIRC what he said was, "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in a magazine". I think he was under some legal pressure because his rifles (mini-14) were being used in "alot" of murders, and needed to make some sort of statement to appease the people that were pressuring him. I've been seeing some Mini-14s that have a weight at the end of the barrel. You will have to fine tune it for every different load you shoot, which is time consuming and sort of forces you to use only the loading you've dialed in. I think that after all the time and money you spend accurizing the mini, it will come out as accurate as an AR, and cost around the same amount of money. The AR isn't very hard to clean, as stated above, all you need is some CLP a couple brushes, and some rags. If you hit up your hometown forum, there should be some guides on how to make a CA legal AR. |
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What are you going to use it for? Self defense? Plinking? You will read many strongly held opinions here and they are just opinions. The TRUTH is that either will do GREAT for the above uses. Anyone who tells you differently is full of bull. The two rifles are VERY different. Both a dependable. The AR is much more accurate and customizable. However, you can hit a mansized vital area at 100 yards all day long. with the Mini. Bill Ruger did originate the idea of magazine capacity restrictions -saying no citizen needs more than 10 rounds. I'll never forget that. However, if I lived in CA I'd get the Mini-14 |
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I look at it like this... AR15: Over a dozen manufacturers Buy an AR lower and you can add several uppers of varying barrel lengths - several rifles off one lower.. As for everything else - just look at the well established AR15 industry - parts, parts and more parts readily available, mostly inexpensive.. and talk about accesories - only limited by your budget. Mags are readily available and inexpensive. Gunsmithing not needed for basics Mini-14: One manufacturer Very insignificant support industry Not very accurate Mags are outrageous and difficult to find Poor ergonomics If I lived in Kalifornia - Earthquakes, Mudslides, Wild Fires, Floods, Horrible traffic, High Taxes,High Crime, High cost of living and government that does not think you as the average citizen(subject) should defend yourself... hmmm I would be looking to move.... |
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Maybe because of CA law the Mini-14 is the way to go. They are fun rifles and fairly reliable but aren't as accurate as an AR type platform. There are after market stocks and other rail attachments that can be added but again this has to be done within CA law. Because of your state's law you are going to be dealing with 10 or less round magazines so factory 5 round magazines shouldn't be an issue. A lot of the issues I've seen with Minis (including mine) were magazine related and factory high caps were pretty darn expensive during the ban. Maybe go on Calguns to see what others there are saying. |
| In my experience a Mini 14 is good for about 2 - 4 MOA if you have a good one. 4 -8 if you have a bad one. (Sometimes worse.) They are reliable if you have good mags, but good mags for a Mini are much more expensive than for an AR. You have to make the decision if it's worth the extra cost for reliable mags & lower accuracy over an AR. |
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I own a mini-14, one of the older models (circa 1980) when they were still using all wood furniture. I got it fairly cheap and I liked the looks of it. It's a neat little piece, though you should understand the gun's limitations. There are two main "problems" with the Mini-14 and both are fixable, though doing so somewhat defeats the purpose of the gun in the first place. The first problem is the thin barrel. Because of the relatively small diameter barrel, the firing process subjects it to a lot of "whip." Bedding solves some problems but only as far as the stock reaches. The end of the barrel can be weighted down with a compensator, flash suppressor, plain old weight, etc. but you're still just bolting on things to try and fix an inherrent flaw. The proper solution is to get a bull barrel. Note that the Ruger factory "bull" barrel (seen on the "target" model) actually isn't for a reason I'll get into next. The second problem is the gas system. Yes, it's simple, yes, it's reliable but as such, it's fairly poorly constructed. The gas port is too large which causes somewhat inconsistent muzzle velocities as well as extremely POWERFUL ejection of spent casings. Also, the factory torque setting on the gas block is usually inconsistent and overtight, causing some accuracy problems as well. The simple solution is to get a smaller gas port insert and re-torque the gas block screws. It's a $20 fix, completely invisible on the rifle and does make a significant difference in both accuracy and shootability. BUT, there's the issue of the gas block itself. As I said earlier, the factory "bull" barrel actually isn't because it still uses the same (small) diameter gas block as the other versions. This means that for and inch of its length, the bull barrel has been turned down to the normal small diameter. This also happens to be the point where the barrel is weakest (since you've drilled a hole in it) AND where you're putting pressure on it from the gas block. So, really, the factory bull barrel is just a waste of money in that you don't get the accuracy that you pay for. It's a step in the right direction, yes, but it's not enough. So the proper solution to accurize a mini includes a bull barrel with a full-diameter gas block attachment. This means a new gas block and new gas block insert. I say it's not really worth it because in order to do that, you're significantly increasing the cost of the rifle and you're adding a significant ammount of weight to it. We haven't even touched the trigger or stock yet... So, for the cost to make a mini shoot like a match AR (and it can most certainly be done), you could just buy a match AR. IMHO, the mini has two principal advantages - low cost & light weight. To buy a proper bull barrel and gas block assembly defeats the whole purpose of the rifle in the first place because you're making it heavier and more expensive. I'm not saying it's a bad move if you want a match mini (and again, it can certainly be done) but it's more of a niche market than either ARs or stock minis. If you feel it's for you, don't let me stop you, just know going into it that you're going to spend a lot of money making the mini into something that it was never meant to be. It's like, you CAN make a Honda Civic that will smoke a Porche 911 but for the money and effort involved, why not just buy the Porche to begin with? IMHO, if you want a mini but still want to do something to improve its accuracy, get a smaller-diameter gas block port, re-torque the gas block and then epoxy-bed it. $50 and a few hours of work is all it will take. If you really want, get yourself a bolt-on flash suppressor. You can easily get it into the 2-3 MOA range with those simple mods. It still won't be a match rifle but then, you didn't buy a match rifle. Good luck! Oh, and post pics! EDIT: I should add, my mini is still bone-stock, no mods. I have it because I like the way it looks and I think it's a neat, handy little rifle. I think modding it would take away some of that charm for me. I understand the rifle won't ring plates at 200 yards every single shot and I'm OK with that. |
| I had a stainless ranch model mini 14 I bought about 7 years ago. I then bought a 20" bushmaster. I sold the mini 14 shortly afterwards. It was a fun gun, but nowhere near the potential of an AR. It was fairly accurate, not as much so as the AR. I really didn't like the way the magazines worked on the mini (as far as inserting and removing). The only reason I regret selling it is that I paid $383 for it brand. I have since added to the collection of AR's. |
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Oh boy, you hit my button! Can't speak to the issue of letting the state determine what kind of rifle you get. But as for the Mini, I owned one, then went through the whole gamut of aftermarket "accurization" steps trying to get it to shoot well. I got mine to the point where, if the rifle was not too hot, but also not too cold, and if you used the right load, and clicked your heels together, and said your prayers, you could occasionally produce a 5-shot group of around 1.5" at 100 yards. Not consistently though. The dreaded "5th shot flyers" were awful, and so was the consistency. After shelling out $600 for the rifle, and $500 more on a nice stock and various customizations to accurize it, it still couldn't shoot consistently as I expected. And no, I wasn't looking for a target rifle in the Mini. Just consistent, 1" to 2" shooting at 100 yards. Some people would tell me they could get this out of their Mini's, but when I questioned them on details, it always fell apart: ONLY if you used special handloads, and ONLY if you limit it to 3-shot groups, etc. All kinds of fudging had to be done. Maybe one person out of a 100 that I've observed on the Mini web forums has truly gotten performance out of a Mini that could rival the average AR. Then I bought my first AR. Talk about contrast! It cost $200 less than the accurized Mini, and it shot better with IRON SIGHTS at 100 yards than the accurized Mini-14 could shoot with a scope! And it was consistent: hot, cold, in between. Look, I'm not going to knock the Mini, but it's very important you understand what it IS, and what YOU WANT. I did not understand either very well when I purchased, and that was MY fault. On the plus side, I would agree that the Mini is extremely reliable in the mechanical sense of feeding, firing, and extraction. It's also a bit simpler to field strip than an AR, though not much, and cleaning goes a bit quicker, though it's not an extreme difference. As for accuracy, the Mini has what would have been defined as "combat accuracy" around 50 years ago: fairly consistent 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards, and you may be able to do better than that by taking certain accurization steps, using handloads, using quality glass, or all of the above. If you're ok with that level of performance, get the Mini. Personally, I could never be happy with a rifle as inaccurate and inconsistent as most Mini's are. As for cost, it is an absolute myth that they will save you money. By the time you accurize them and buy mags, you'll spend more than you would for a reasonable brand AR like a Rock River, and the Mini STILL won't shoot as well. Oh yes, remember magazines. Bill Ruger believed he knew better than you how many rounds your mag should have. You can still get factory 20rd mags (the aftermarkets are unreliable--don't get 'em), but the best price on the Internet is about $45 apiece at CheaperThanDirt.com, and they are are frequently sold out. If you assume you want at least 6 mags per rifle, that equals 6 X 45 = $270 you must add to the price of your Mini. AR's, on the other hand, have unlimited options for magazines. Typically even good brand mags can be hand for $10 to $15 apiece. In my view, the main downsides of the Mini are: inaccurate/inconsistent shooting performance, expensive and hard-to-get mags, an overall cost that is higher than a similarly equipped AR, and certain critical firing system parts are hard to get or you cannot get them at all (whereas with AR's, you can get almost any part you need from multiple sources). On each of these points, an AR is demonstrably a better choice. So I won't say a Mini is bad, but after I understood what an AR could do for me, I just lost all desire to own a Mini. Other folks still enjoy their Mini's, and that's great for them. I'm just being honest saying I couldn't recommend a Mini to a friend. |
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Man, I didn't expect this many replies in one afternoon! Don't you guys work? So, the consensus is that the Mini-14 is a pain to accuratize. The only good thing is that the local heat won't bat an eyelash at it. My main use would be plinking. And, of course, the End Of Days scenario. For the AR, I had planned on an A2-style with the MMG. That way, when the sh*t hits the fan, I could put on the pistol grip and grab the hi-cap mags. I was thinking that a flat-top would be best because I read the Mini-14 vs. AR article here and it talked about the problems of close work with the tall AR sights. I think I'll move ahead with ordering my OLL. I'll be back here for more tips as I collect the parts. Thanks for your help. |
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If you're absolutely determined to own a Mini, and you want a good shooter that overcomes the problems listed above, there's a company that can do conversions and turn your Mini into a tack driver. Plan to spend in the range of $600 to $700 for the rifle new, and then another $400 to $700 again for this company to improve your trigger, install a complete-length bull barrel, and a custom gas block to fit the barrel, and also to bed your action, etc. They do brilliant work, and if you want a Mini and are willing to pay for it, I've known many people who have gone this route and been happy with the results. However, for the amount you spend, you could get a really nice gas piston AR (like the Sig 556, for $1400), or you could build a nice custom match AR, or you could get TWO more modest-priced AR's. The custom Mini is indeed a nice rifle, but like someone above said, it's a bit like building a Honda Civic into a Porsche. http://www.ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/ruger_mini_prices.php |
. That stock on there is hideous! Have you thought about an m1a or a garand?
If you look carefully, you will note a set screw in the center of the mag release. This prevents the button from functioning without a separate "tool", creating a fixed 10 round mag, and thus a cali legal semi-auto. |
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If you are looking for a .223 for hobby shooting, the Mini is a miserable choice. If you just want a Mini 14 to keep stashed away for the End Of The World As We Know It then go for it. If that's all you're allowed to own in California that's what you're going to get stuck with. Get it as cheaply as possible and don't spend a dime on any modifications, you'd be throwing good money after bad. Myself, I'd get an M1 Garand and just call it a day. I guess Garands are legal in California. |
| If I had to live in Calli I'd get a mini. I have heard that they are going over to a medium weight barrel on all minis, this may help accuracy. As others have said I would move. I moved from IL to TN to get away from a state that did not belive in my right to carry a firearm. But I have a profession that I can do prety much anywhere I want, not everyone does. |
| they make this thing called an accustud, accurod or something like that that bolts onto the bottom of the barrel that is supposed to take the vibration out of the barrel. It makes the mini look like a M14. It's supposed to reduce your groups by 75% or so. I can't remember what the hell it's called, but it might help with accuracy issues. As far as function, I've never seen a mini that didn't go BANG everytime you pulled the trigger. |
The Mini-14 is not a combat worthy weapon. However, that being said it is a fun gun to shoot. This is mine after work was done by Accuracy Systems. Sub MOA all day long 45 to 62gr. rounds. I can't begain to say how many jack rabbits this rifle has dispatched out here in the Nevada deserts.   |
I'd like to inquire how much effort and money went into accurizing that thing |
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The first rifle I owned was a Mini-14. It shot 2 MOA groups all day. The problem with mine was the center of that group would move up to 5" at 100 yards between range sessions. It was inexpensive, but after I added the pistol-grip folding stock and bayonet-lug flash hider it was no longer light! I sold it off to get a Daewoo DR200 and the Daewoo got sold when I made my AR. I think I would vote with my feet and move to someplace that trusted me with a real gun if I lived in California. |
Don't know if you saw my post earlier, but I've owned a Mini, and am a moderator in a forum that has a lot of active Mini owners. The company that does the nice accurization work as above is Accuracy Systems Inc, and the cost of doing their full job, which guarantees sub-MOA results, is equal or even slightly higher than the cost of a new Mini rifle, currently around $800 for the full option, $400 for the reduced. You can spend less than that and just get sort of a half-job, which gives you a trigger job, and some kind of a barrel-harmonics-tuning device, for $300. Add that to the roughly $650 cost of a new Mini, and you're shooting about as accurately as your standard out-of-the-box AR. So, it can be done. Someone above also alluded to a less expensive option that can be added onto a standard Mini. This is called the Accustrut, it's a device that attaches to the barrel right near the gas block, and it simply stiffens the barrel. These cost $120, and I know by personal experience plus testimony from many users that they will reduce groups on an otherwise unenhanced Mini, as they claim, from 50% to 75%. However, the Accustrut does NOT eliminate the Mini's problem with consistency, it'll tighten your 3-shot group average a bit, but you still have the problem with extreme fliers once the barrel heats up (which occurs after only 5 to 10 quick shots), and once that occurs, the Accustrut no longer has any positive effect. Bottom line, it only helps when shooting from a cold or moderately warm barrel. Good for hunting or low-volume target-shooting only. I believe the Mini is a mechanically reliable rifle (it'll always go "bang"), but the ONLY way to turn it into a truly consistent-shooting, accurate rifle, is to almost completely remake the gun as Accuracy System Inc does, by completely rebarreling with a heavy barrel, adding a custom gas block for the heavy barrel, truing the bolt and action, improving the trigger, and bedding the action. By the time you're done with it as ASI does it, your Mini is now an accurate and consistent rifle, but it's also a 10-pound behemoth, so the light, fast-handling aspect that was one of the advantages of the Mini in the first place is now gone. Oh, and by the way: the factory sights absolutely stink, they are nothing like those available to AR owners, and you don't have any good options unless you're willing to tap and drill the receiver, and spend another $250 to $300 just to set up with some good sights. Bottom line: I think the stock Mini is only good for a plinker, or an inexpensive truck gun to use when shooting at close range and accuracy doesn't matter much. You can certainly make it into a nice rifle, as ASI does, but you have to ask the question: why would you want to spend $1500 to $1600 to build a Mini into a 10-pound rifle that shoots .223 about as accurately as a standard, new-in-box AR would for about $900 to $950? I guess there would be ONE advantage to the Mini set up in this way: it gives you a true "gas piston" type of operating system, if you really have to have one of those. :-) |
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A guy I work with bought his Mini14 recently for $450, I bought mine years ago for $375. It may not be as accurate as the AR15 but they are very reliable and fun to shoot. The new Mini14 is advertised with a heavier barrel which should improve accuracy. I watched a guy at the range this summer with a target version Mini14 do some very impressive shooting at 300 yards. The mini14 is a good rifle but can't really be compared to the AR15 With all that said, for the difference in price I would buy the AR15. |
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I own two Mini-14/5 rifles. These are the latest issue. I owned two in the 1970s and sold them both. The stainless wood stocked Mini-14/5 is as accurate as any standard AR, whereas the stainless synthetic Mini-14/5 will hold its own with most AR Carbines. I have no problem with barrel heating and wandering points of impact on either of these new Mini-14/5 rifles. Also, for me, the Mini points faster than an AR style for close in snap shots. On the other side of the coin, the AR rifles have easier to adjust sights which provide better long range sight pictures, at least for me. I also have an AR15 derivative capable of .5MOA and under, something the Mini cannot do in my estimation. I do believe the AR platform can be tuned for better accuracy much more painlessly than a Mini if you have the knowledge and take the appropriate steps. I have found that AR magazines are a hit or miss effort. They may be cheaper than Ruger Mini magazines, but three or four Ruger Mini magazines are very dependable and can be obtained as serviceable with the purchase of the three or four. The Mini shoots between 1,000 and 1,500 rounds per year and gets 1 cleaning per year, no hiccups. I believe it is more robust than the AR overall. The big question, which would I keep? Since I live in a state where I can have an unadulterated AR, I would give them the nod, mainly because they are the US long gun and parts and other accessories abound. However, if I was going to live where field serviceability was paramount, I would take the Mini if forced to choose between the two. The Mini will take dirt and abuse that will stop the AR. Also, in California, I may give the Mini strong consideration, as you can have a normally functioning firearm without any modification nonsense such as fixed 10 round magazine and "top" loading. I believe Ruger should have limited his magazines to 10 rounds to preclude any crazy modifications being imposed, but his 5 shot only offering is over reacting. |
| I'm sure that you have already received some very technical responses, so allow me to offer a qualitative one. There is no comparison between these two weapons. I have owned a few Mini-14s and currently own five AR-15s. The AR-15 is in a class of its own and the Mini-14 is a distant competitor. Sighting, repeatable accuracy, modular functionality, reliability, durability, easy-to-fix and other compelling features are all on the side of the AR-15. The only reason to get a Mini-14 is price and they have been getting more expensive lately, whereas you can build a decent AR-15 for only a few $ more. Go with the AR-15. |
| As said here before, AR is a much better weapon overall, and more expensive. On the other hand, a good used Mini-14 for around $300-$400 is a good weapon for the money. It is accurate enough within fragmentation range of the 5.56 cartridge. If not in Kali, a better comparison may be a 5.56 AK with the Mini-14, either of which is generally quite reliable and accurate enough for the intended purpose within frag range. Now, if ammo would just come back down to $4.00 or less per box, I could shoot my AR or a mini instead of the more affordable 7.62x39 and .22 LR! |
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Here's my experience with the Ruger Mini series: Bought a used Mini-14 right after the 94' AWB because I wanted an AR but at the time couldn't afford one and thought the Mini would be a great compromise. I was happy with my Mini14 as long as I didn't shoot ARs. The AR has a smoother action (if that's what you want to call it) and is more accurate. Instead of buying an AR or selling my Mini14 I bought a Mini30 because at the time I wanted a semi-auto rifle in a larger caliber to hunt deer with in WV where I had hunted a few years in a row. The mini30 was garbage to me. You've got the mini's accuracy (which is not super great but minute of bad guy/deer) and then throw in Wolf ammo which is not exactly accurate to begin with. MY Mini30 did not like the Wolf ammo and with expensive high cap magazines that sometimes worked (I had the best luck with the extendable Thermolds) it wasn't living up to what I had hoped it would be. Sold the Mini14 to buy my first AR and I still have the Mini30 but haven't shot it in about 7 years. My Mini14 was 100% reliable and fun but....... I wanted an AR and the Mini was not an AR so I wasn't impressed. YMMV. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR vs. Mini-14 (Page 1 of 2)
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