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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - army marksmanship test (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/25/2007 2:10:40 PM EDT
im going into the army and i wanted to know how the basic marksmanship test went just so i know how ill do, i have the army 25m targets, isnt there prone supported and unsupported only? and isnt it like 40 rds? i know this is the wrong forum but i wanted a good answer from the AR GODS who know all thanks
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When I served there were two methods of qualifying....paper 25m targets that represented ranges from 50m to 300m. And the pop-up target range. If you go to the ARFCOM “Manuals and Downloads” page, you can download FM23-9 which covers Army marksmanship and the standards for qualifying. |
| Well it has been several years ,but I doubt it has changed much. If I Remember correctly the first 20 rounds is supported standing in a fox hole, and the 2nd 20 rounds is prone unsupported. In the Army you will only shoot out to 300 meters. There will be pop up targets starting at 25 meters Those don't stay up very long, hence the nickname fast Freddie. I don't remember all of them but I think there are also 50, 75, 100, 150, 200, 250 and 300 meter pop up targets. The targets way out there stay up a little longer than the ones up close. They will teach you how to shoot. Since the 5.56 shoots pretty flat you can pretty much just shoot center mass and pass. Just pay attention to your D.I. and you will do fine. I hope it's not pouring rain like it was when I had to qualify the first time. Good Luck and have fun. Oh boy will there be lots of fun! |
It's been over 13 years since I last qualified but that's how I remember it also, except I was thinking the targets started at 50 meters going out to 300 meters. I read somewhere recently though that the Army was considering changing the Qualification to incorporate shooting from a kneeling and standing position based on actual combat conditions that have been encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan. The article said they were testing this new method with some units to see how well it worked. Like the other responses said though just pay atttention to your instructors as they will teach you everything you need to know. I would not get too wrapped up in trying to learn alot of things before you go to Basic though since you might learn bad habits which are hard to break and they will break them one way or another. The best advice I would say is to concentrate on PT and getting yourself in good physical conditon, concentrate on 2 mile run, push ups and sit ups. That will help you the most since they will teach you the rest. Good luck and thanks for willingness to serve. |
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The schedule C (25m reduced) targets are no longer authorized for qualification. The Army qualification consists of 40 rounds fired at timed popup targets. 20 rounds are fired from a standing foxhole supported position, and 20 rounds are fired prone unsupported. The targets are at 50, 75, 100, 150, 200, 250, and 300 meters. The closest targets pop up for three seconds, while the 300m targets pop up for about eight seconds. The 50, 75, and 100m targets are the smaller "head-and-shoulders" targets, while the further ones are standard E-type sillouhettes. |
Yeah 300m is as far as they went for rifle qual. If you had the chance to shoot on a machinegun range you may have gone out further. |
I went through Basic at Ft. Mclellan, AL in Feb. 89 and it was the 300 meter pop ups as described by others. Seeing how standardized the military is I would think it was the same everywhere. |
Do you have a source for that? It would make my day if that were the case 0 especially if it meant rebirth of the KD ranges that were always supposed to be for backup quals. |
It was not part of Qualification but we did fire wearing Full MOPP Gear icluding the mask. I believe we only fired out to 25 meters though. We did it at night too if I remember correctly. |
There is a separate NBC gear qualification, it's 20 rounds at 25m IIRC. |
Pro mask and night fire is part of qualification - but I have only seen it done right once in nearly 15 years now. Most places call it "familiarization" or simply blow it off completely due to range limitations. |
I don't have a source for the moment, but I know that the order came down a couple years ago that had me change from qualifying troops on the C targets to taking them to the full popup range, telling me that they were no longer valid for qual. I'll see what I can dig up for you. |
Wow, I hadn't heard about that! I have been told that the EST 2000 is authorized for use in qualification. I was very skeptical before I used it (remembering the old Nintendo M16 trainer). However, I was very pleasantly surprised by the EST 2000. We used it for M9 PMI, and it was dead-on accurate. They are also able to show you the track of your muzzle on the target through the entire engagement, and it also indicates your aiming pattern prior to the shot, at the break, and your follow-through. |
Last qual I ran was in Iraq - so all sorts of rules were ignored. I've been out of the mainstream loop for some time now. |
A well-run EST is lots of good fun and training. Again, I could be incorrect on the officialness of the 'no sched c' order, it's just what I was told by higher. In case anyone is interested, the C targets have a higher standard for hits: Expert: Hits 38 to 40 targets. Sharpshooter: Hits 33 to 37 targets. Marksman: Hits 26 to 32 targets. |
Best part is, nobody can claim the targets just weren't working as they shoot the ground 5 feet in front of them.  I want one in my basement some day. |
This has actually changed. The distances are still the same, however the shooting positions are different. The foxhole has been phased out. It's now 20 rounds from the prone supported, 10 from the prone unsupported and 10 from the kneeling. Just hope and pray that the day you qualify, all the targets on your lane are working correctly. During my qual in basic, the 150 would pop-up and immediately fall back down...and unfortunately, that target comes up several times. Oh well. Additionally, when you qualify, you will do so wearing full battle rattle. That is, Kevlar, or ACH depending on how high speed your company is, IBA (body armor with ceramic plates), LBV (your load bearing gear with full canteens), knee pads and elbow pads. It is a real pain to fire from the prone with the IBA creeping up and pushing your kevlar down over your eyes...the key is kevlar donuts...they work wonders. -Cope |
Ah yes, I forgot about the change. I've been on such non-stop deployment that I haven't had a standard qual in about 2 years. |
The ACH will help with the helmet problem you had. Do they even make ACU pattern covers for the old kevlars? I remember reading about the knee pads and elbow pads thing - I had to laugh, as I never wore elbow pads even in Iraq. I wonder who came up with that? I am going to have to qualify on the M16 for the first time in I don't know how many years this December, since I am deploying as an IA, and my orders say "rifle." It will be interesting. |
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Negative on the ACU pattern for Kevlar covers...we were the only company in our battalion running around in the old kevlars too, everyone else had the ACHs. Yeah, the knee and elbow pad thing was a pain. Luckily, the drill sergeants in our platoon told us we could go without, since we'd never use them anywhere else anyway, so we were able to qualify without that extra stuff, but the other platoons weren't so lucky. -Cope |
Ahhh - basic training. Well, you shouldn't see those helmets again. Maybe the old ACH helmets with the fucked up black chinstraps, but that's it. Sounds like your drills were smarter than the Pentagon desk warrior who came up with the knee and elbow pad thing. Good for them. |
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order the army says we should conduct the Qual.. 1st method is the Pop up described by 13Fist. 2nd is similar to #1 but on the KD with the same firing positions 3rd is the 25meter "Alt C " It is very frustrating trying to get the Company commanders out of the Alt C mindset... Nothing worse for a young gung ho troop than going to the range and waiting 8 hrs to fire 40 rounds at 25 meters... I am at Ft Devens training area every month and you see all the units file in and wait in the bleachers all day long at the alt C 25 meter courses, when you have 2 excellent KD ranges with 40 points a piece sitting vacant.  When we get troops out on the KD range firing and pulling pits they absolutely love it....actually practicing some MARKSMANASHIP and getting some valuable training rather than just "checking the Box for the year" It really burns me to hear all the lip service about "lessons learned". We take all these reports about what's happening over in the box and publish reports, but nothing changes. Marksmanship, the fundamental necessity of soldering takes a back seat to EO, or Cultural awareness. ARGGGG>......... 
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I'm surprised the KD range is even in working order. That in itself is a rarity. The check the block mentality is a nasty one - and sadly, not going anywhere soon. Very few people even know what a KD range is, let alone that the manual calls for qual with it in case no pop-up range is available. Good luck finding targets even if the range works. The 10 meter machine gun qual is my favorite, though - and further proof that nobody reads the damn manuals. |
Everyone always had to qualify with Kevlars - it's the addition of the IBA that makes it stupid. Remember lying prone with a ruck on, and trying to look up? Same deal? |
+1. Good luck and thanks for serving. Army '88 - '93, FLNG '93 - '97. |
I was agreeing with it. Not bashing it. the dang kevlar always tipped down over when we did anything on the range |
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The first time you kneel down on a spent piece of brass during a fire fight will convince most that knee pads are a good idea. I've almost been taken out of a fight due to the extreme pain shooting through my knee cap after having done just that. I became a believer. While some may think it's being accident prone, I think of it as being super aggressive. I have also whacked the hell out of my elbow on a door jam while doing room clearing. That's a pain that has to felt to be appreciated. Having said that, elbow pads are a pain in the ass. |
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Any of you Old farts like me remember the Weaponeer??? I would love to have that set up in my basement.... you would'nt see me until spring...... I think the Pop up Qual course is a good course but should be used along with a KD longer range course and a CQB qualifyer as well. That should cover the gamut of Marksmenship environments our troops should be proficient in. let me have theTRADOC for one year.. I'll give you a Marksmenship program for the U.S. Army that the Marine Corp would be jealous off...... |
Although I think the qual procedure could use an overhaul, it's worth noting that there is more than just the popup range in the qualification procedure. The full qualification includes the 40 round popup prone/kneeling course, a 20 round NBC gear course, a 40 round night-fire course, and a 20 round close-range "reflexive-fire" course. I think it would be nice to have some more CQB-style qualification, but it's not necessary for most of big green. |
He meant the 1900s, musket man.  ETA/ the Army qualification test is 50-300m - 20rds standing supported in a hole, 20rds prone unsupported. |
I do like those inserts. Interesting aside, I was actually deployed with the very first unit to enter theater with ACUs. We had version 0.5 uniforms, and they fell apart FAST. In 13 months I went through DXing 13 uniforms. That's one complete uniform blowout per month, cycling through 4 uniforms at a time. Some of them only lasted 7 days of actual wear. They've improved them a lot now. |
Its not a big deal, but they do make them. The nasty guard unit I am in now gave me one. Last drill I went to, the popup range was being used by another company so they had us qualify just shooting paper targets. It was pretty easy. They give you a set amount of time and you put a hole in each target. 20rds supported 10rds unsupported and 10rds kneeling. The targets where just huge pieces of paper with simulated 50m and up to 300m targets. There were 10 targets total. You just put 2 holes in each from supported and 1 in each from the other postitions. edit for spelling |
It's funny you mention the Weaponeer because I was thinking of that last night when I first read these posts but I could not remember the name of it. We spent a day on it when I went through Basic in 89. If I remember right it looked like an old Arcade Shooting Gallery and the M16 that was mounted to it simulated the recoil and everything. I was thinking of that and the Drills Sergeants taking a dime and balancing it on the barrel of the M16A1. We would practice dry firing it until we could do it consistently without knocking the dime off of the barrel. It's funny how much of the stuff you learn in Basic Training you still remember today even when you have not practiced or performed any of it for over 15 years. |
It's not the qualification procedures that are in most dire need of overhaul . . . it's the entire institutional mindset of the U.S. Army that continually places marksmanship on the backburner. For a real change to occur, a CSA and CMA need to come on-board that are marksmanship nuts. Then, the regs need to be rewritten to require more "rounds/soldier/year" and the authorizations for that ammo need to change to support it. If you look at the actual amount of ammo units are allotted by reg, it's pathetic. What's even more pathetic, is that there are many Officers and NCO's that will point to that reg and say "Bu-bu-bu-but we fired our allocation!! We shot enough this year!!" Soldiers (from E-1 to O-10) should be on the range EVERY month. No questions asked. Combat MOS soldiers should be on the range every WEEK. And there should be enough ammo and range space so that the "hurry up and wait" goes away. |
Agree 100%. Now that I've transitioned from active to NG, I've submitted proposals to the state NGB suggesting the creation of roving "marksmanship trainers" who would move between the various ranges in the state, so that guard units could take a drill weekend and get an intensive marksmanship mini-course out of it. I've already modeled out a training course for the trainers, as well as soldier training and suggested ammo allotments, so if anyone would like a copy to modify as they see fit and submit to whoever will listen, feel free to ask. It's not much, but it's what I can do from my current position. |
The M16A1 was BSZ for a 43/250M Battle Sight Zero. Often done on the 25M range using the 'L' aperture for a 25/375M zero then you flip to the unmarked aperture for the 43/250m zero.
I would love to see a copy of your proposal...maybe if enough soldiers from enough states start calling for this, we might get lucky. I'll send a PM with my email address. -Cope |
ShakinNotStirred
Ahhh. Someone who gets it..... STRAC allocations have never been enough for big green to reach the level of marksmanship that we COULD Have. Phoebus You idea is sound, but you will quickly learn that the NG is a totally differnt animal (Very soon I suspect) and your idea will fall on deaf ears because they just do not have the time or the money or resources to fund it. What is needed is a total paradigm shift . You would think all the Senior NCO's who grew up in the Cold war would get it and be the ones making changes.. but once you pin on E-8 - E-9 you loose touch with your past .. sort like a 4 term Senator... you start out with the best of intentions.... but slowly the system corrupts you to the point of being totally in effective. Even the Marine Corp has slowly started to shift away rom the KD range mentality and moved toward a realistic markesmenship training program. A Combat Arms MOS soldier shoot be hitting the range no less then once a month. with CQB training every 4 months. do that and you will have some serious "Rifleman" in both the Army and the Corp. The Corp has been living with there mystique for way to long...... |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - army marksmanship test (Page 1 of 2)
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