AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Del-Ton service... Bad experience (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/3/2007 7:04:57 PM EDT
|
Absolutely FLOORED by my experience. Went to the Fayetteville gun show today and Del-Ton was there, as usual, selling their wares. Nice people, decent prices. They had Doublestar lowers for $110, pistol marked for $120. Problem was, they would NOT take my money. Showed them my Alaska Drivers License, Military ID, and a copy of my orders. They said they had to keep the only copy of my orders! I said, tell me where the BATFE says you have to keep the copy and we've got a deal. Of course, there is no BATFE requirement. For the record, I was buying two stripped lowers. I'd intended to buy a Beta and a parts kit, but thought better of it when they made me go back to the house to get a copy of my orders. I made the 1.5 hour round trip and then they said they had to keep this copy because it was "Their Policy." F&@k them and their policy. The copy had my SSN, my wife and children's birthdays, my security clearance information, my old address, my unit of assignment, etc. Why did they need that info? Because they were nice people, I didn't make a big deal, but they didn't get my money either. Went to the local, "Preferred" AR-15 store (Shooter's Supply) and picked up a Superior Arms (with set screw) for $95. Saved $15 for my wasted 3 hours of driving and arguing. Bottom line, is this just me getting hot under the collar or should I just give out my personal information to anybody? BA |
Sounds like a shitty move on their part, but I think this would be better in the EE Feedback. |
| I cant complain. After getting dicked around by one company (placed order for upper, called two weeks later since I didnt recieve items that were "in stock" yet, and found out my order had been sent for custom engraving that I didnt want) I called Del Ton, and ordered my stuff. The guy was packing my stuff up while I was on the phone with him during his lunch. |
| I really can't blame them for being the way they are when selling lowers. The BATFE is pretty picky when it comes to paperwork (make sure all the "i" are dotted and the "T"s are crossed). I had an experience with Del Ton for a couple of weeks. I ordered a complete Stag arms lower before the middle of the month and finally got it at the end of the month. They were at the shot show when I ordered it, then the fax my dealer sent them wasn't good enough, so they mailed it to them. Two weeks later the lower was on it's way. Add another three or four days shipping and for the weekend and it finally arrived at the dealers last Tuesday. I picked it up Wednesday. Half a month is a lot of time to wait in this day and age, but I understand why they needed a clear copy of my dealers FFL. |
|
Blame the same government for which you work for causing the bureaucratic and unconstitutional controls placed on your being able to buy a firearm without interference. The BATFE is charged with enforcing firearm laws and is very interpretive about the laws. I have had to fill out BATFE forms and WRITE OUT state abbreviations, simply because I was told that BATFE does not like the two letter abbreviations....and this was the BATFE that told me that. I am still trying to find where all those 20,000+ firearms laws are mentioned here: "Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Once again, thank the government, and the POLITICIANS, BUREAUCRATS, AND FUNCTIONARIES who continue to form it. Edited for spelling. |
| I doubt that the BATFE is requiring they keep copies of people's orders, bills, leases, etc. that dealers are required to REVIEW like drivers licenses. I think it's BS. I've heard of companies copying ID cards too. This is not only BS, but it's borderline criminal. WalMart once wanted me to fill out TWO 4473's so they could send one to their corporate headquarters! |
|
I think the problem is your Alaska Drivers License. Dealers are only supposed to sell to residents of the state. You were in North Carolina, so if you had whipped out a North Carolina DL, you'd have been in and out and no big deal. I'm sure they wanted a hard copy of the Orders to Cover Their Ass(ests) from the friendly Big Brothers at BATFE. [BATFE] Now why did you illegally sell a firearm (lower is the magic part) to someone from out of state? He didn't have a NC address or DL did he? You said he told you he was from and gonna go back to Alaska? You got proof of that Boy?? What's that - You Don't Then BOY - You are in a W-H-O-L-E lot of trouble!! Close your business and get ready for court!! [/BATFE] Del-Ton has been good to me in my dealings. If you are ticked off, then feel free to focus that on the right parties. BIGGER_HAMMER  |
|
They have the right to do business with (or not) anyone they want to. I'm not surprised they were hinky about someone with an Alaska driver's license trying to buy a lower from them and wanted some CYA documentation before selling to you. Getting jammed up with the BATF means losing the business they've built up investing time and money in, kind of hard to second guess them not wanting to take risks with that investment. Gander Mountain here lies and says they have to have a "copy of your driver's license" for the batf, which of course they don't HAVE to have, but they do have the right to refuse to do business with someone who won't provide a copy of their driver's license , free country and al that. |
So on that logic, does the OP have the right to share his experiences here?
Hence the OP sharing his personal account of a transaction here. |
|
If you have ever worked for an FFL, you would understand what it's like to deal with BATFE. No single sale is worth jeopardizing your license, and many FFL's require thorough paperwork for someone in the OP's situation to make sure they can prove the were selling a firearm to someone who is not barred from purchasing. Blame the BATFE. It is not fun to tell a potential customer no, and very few dealers will do that just to be jerks. |
Long arms can be sold to a resident of any state, with limited excepetions like California residents, provided the laws of both states are met. If alaska does not have a prohibition on its residents buying long guns in other states then an Alaska res can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state. |
|
Uh, I'm active duty Air Force and I am a resident of this state. I didn't have a problem PROVING my residency by letting them SEE my orders, my drivers license, and my Military ID. They actually questioned my form saying, well we've never seen one like this. Given Ft. Bragg has 10 times the troops as Pope, I'm not surprised, but they treated me like I was trying to do something illegal. Fact: Even if I WAS from Alaska and just visiting for a week, it is PERFECTLY legal for them to sell me a component receiver and/or rifle or shotgun. Up until I moved to NC last summer, I was an FFL doing business as Badger Arms in Alaska, then Washington State, then Alaska again. I've dealt with the BATFE continuously for over a Decade including Clinton's BATFE. I know the regs and so should Del-Ton. Just because I'm Active Duty, they give me the run-around? |
BH, do you know the rules? Last time I checked (this morning) dealers in NC can sell long-guns to a resident of any state. Unless their web site is wrong: www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2
So, technically, he could have sold the gun to me without proof of residency. So, he wants proof of residency... FINE. I go get it and he STILL doesn't sell the firearm to me unless he can KEEP my proof. Well, he didn't keep my Military ID or my Drivers license, did he? Sorry, being in the Air Force and being from Alaska doesn't mean that I am a sub-class worthy of suspicion.
|
But I'm sorry..it's not gonna keep me from dealing with them. They've so far been great people to me and I havent even ordered anything from them.
|
Badger, I'm neither a F.F.L. or an attorney, but as I understood "The Rules", I thought dealers were only to sell to residents of their state. That was why the straw purchasers would come down from the N.E. to buy guns in the south through a local source, (example because it wasn't legal for a NY'er to purchase from a dealer in FL or VA ect...) Sorry if you feel Del-Ton gave you the run around, but in this day and age when the BATFE would rather raid the honest people than the thugs, people have to be sure they have CYA. Best of Luck to You in AK & the AF. BIGGER_HAMMER |
So there it is: They didn't like your paperwork. It has nothing to do with you being active duty. |
|
I've bought stuff at that same gun show(not from Del-Ton). Mass Drivers License, Military ID, and a copy of my orders. All they wanted to do was see them-not keep or copy them. Everyone I've talked to that has dealt with the Del-Ton folks around there have had good experiences. Must be some new folks in the booth? IMHO Shooters Supply is a good shop. Ed's up in Vass is a decent more "traditional gun shop. |
An NC resident can not legally purchase a firearm (rifle and shotgun) except in NC, SC, Tennessee and Virginia - if it is legal in those states for him to so purchase it. If I, as an NC resident (citizen) am in Alaska and buy a rifle (if its legal to do so in Alaska), I have violated this statute (I realize NC wouldn't know). I think Tony was trying to make damn sure he was legal so as to stay out of PMITA prision. |
Wish it were that simple. No, they said if I wanted the receivers, they had to keep my copy. Yes, normally you get to LOOK at the proof. For the record, there is only one original set of orders. Certified copies are only certified once to be used for TMO shipments. Everything else is a photocopy, including the copy I had. I wasn't yelled at, just refused service for no good reason. That's why I posted. Kinda wish Del-Ton would come in and explain why. |
I wasn't doing any of that. I'm a legal resident of NC based on my PCS orders which I showed them. Again, the issue was that they wanted to KEEP my orders. I'll admit I was a bit perterbed that I had neglected to bring a copy of them with me, but that still wasn't the point.
|
Well, I suppose they might come here, but this isn't the right forum for it. It should be moved to the feedback thread in the EE. I can't speak on their behalf, but I think it's just a misunderstanding. You probably won't get much by posting this here other than conjecture (such as my own). I hope you can get it all worked out and you'll get your receivers. |
| Delton has been great for me to deal with. We hold an FFL and if anything isn't to our satisfaction, we don't sell. It's our option. We have no responsibility to sell to anyone we choose not to. Our clientel is mostly LEO's. Now and again some gang banger comes in. They don't leave with a weapon from us. And yes, the BATF will hang your ass if you are a FFL and screw up. |
All they should really need as proof that the guy showed them copies of PCS orders is the control number assigned to the orders. Which the BATFE should have an easy time confirming the validity. (I'm not implying that they will have the goodwill, initiative or intelligence to do so.) That being said, I always provided the FFLs w/ a copy of the first page of my orders when in the service. It's not like I didn't have access to a photocopier or printer. ETA: If the FFL felt the need to CYA I can't really blame him. |
|
Badger, I read this thread because Del-Ton is the supplier I'm planning to buy my first AR (complete lower) from. I feel for you, having the bad experience that you did. After reading everything here, I can't fault Del-Ton for being cautious. I, being ignorant of the rules, woulda probably offered to let them make a copy of the orders; providing that all impertinent data was blacked out for their copy (family info, etc.) They're going to get SSN, etc. anyway, so giving it to them on a copy of USAF orders wouldn't bother me. I'm a newbie, and may not have a complete understanding of how this works, but wanted to offer my $.02. FWIW: Del-Ton still tops my list. |
Residency is proven by state government issued identification - usually a driver's license. Military personnel are covered by the Soldiers and Sailors' Relief Act. Under the Act, you can be a resident of any state you intend to live in after service (if you establish residency). You can be stationed in NC and not be a resident. I'll bet dollars to donuts you claim Alaskan residency at tax time. I was a Florida resident the whole time I was in the Army - including my three tours at Bragg. I always had local license plates and local driver's license so I didn't have to explain to a Kansas LEO why I had a Colorado driver's license and NC tags and registration - while having lived in Kansas for two years. All of that would be good to go under the SSRA, but unusual enough to be 'interesting' to the Podunk PD. And a pain in the ass when you want to buy a gun. So I had a NC DL and no body gave me shit at the gun store (or the Sheriff's Office when I needed a pistol purchase permit before I got a CCW). Take your Alaska or Washington driver's license down to the NC DMV Driver's License Office by the Civic Center and get an NC DL. PRESTO!!! No more problems. Then head on down and get NC plates. That way the Fuquay-Varina PD won't pull you over for driving while Yankee. BTW, several FFLs in Fayetteville make copies of your DL and CCW (if you have one) when they sell you a gun. |
Right... lets dogpile on a good supplier...  I was 'active duty Military' in NC (and a resident of another state) and bought guns all the time with no problem... Why? I had an NC DL. So simple, even I could do it. Now I'm retired from the Army and an NC resident. One of the reasons I have a CCW is so I can buy a pistol whenever I want. Its all about reducing the stress. And Del-Ton is a good company to deal with (and supports this site). Shall we ignore that there might be two sides (at least)? |
Ummm, in order to prove you're a "resident" with an out of state DL, you need to show your orders bringing you to that state. Same thing happens here in Louisiana, but I just got a Louisiana DL to simplify things. |
|
We're sorry you weren't happy with your experience with us today. We're not in business to make people upset or not take people's money. If that were the case, we wouldn't still be around today! We have NO problems at all with the military, sell to them quite frequently, and we ship stuff to Iraq on about a weekly basis. We think it's great that you serve, and the fact that you have to prove a little more documentation is a downer, we agree, but we've got to follow the law. We're the ones that the ATF can come to and knock on our door, and we've got to be able to justify and prove our actions. Our ATF agent came to our shop and talked with us when we first got our FFL. One of our first questions was how to go about it with the military and what we needed specifically. She told us we had to have a copy of the permanent orders bringing them to North Carolina. She told us we had to keep a copy of those orders. We have to do what our agent says....she's the one that can come back on us and get us. We have no desire to pay a fine or spend any time at all in prison. The ATF as a whole might not need the copies of the orders, but if our agent here wants it, than that's what we've got to do. As I'm sure some of you know, there's been a lot going on in NC lately with FFL holders getting in trouble for not having their paperwork right. We don't want to be one of them. As far as selling to anyone in any state goes, North Carolina has a law that only allows us to sell firearms to people from adjacent states...sorry, Alaska is not one of them! I realize we did look at the orders a little weird today, we don't do a lot with Pope, so they were new. Bear with us and give us a little slack! It's not that we didn't believe you, it was just that they were different than what we've ever dealt with. I apologize for the probems, and hope that you understand. We've got to do what we think is right, and if you don't agree, we're sorry! Tony and Kassandra |
There is a difference between your home of record and residence as the ATF defines it. It has nothing to do with state taxes. That said, you are correct, it is easier to just get a DL from the state you are living in. In fact, in some states, like VA, it is required even for .mil personnel within the first 30 days. Although, it is rarely enforced. |
To pick nits further, residency and your home of record (the military term) are two different things. A service member can not change their home of record. Its where you enter service from and has nothing to do with residency. My home of record in my military records is Steamboat Springs, CO because my initial orders to Fort Benning for IOBC were sent to me there. I could never change it. My maternal grandfather was from Michigan but entered service (enlisted) in Beaver Falls PA when the US entered WWI (he just happed to be in PA and decided to enlist). His 'home of record' in his records was Beaver Falls, PA until he was direct commissioned in WWII when he entered service from San Francisco, CA. My Dad was from Indiana (Richmond) but was serving in a Ohio National Guard unit when they were Federalized in 1940 for a year (then came Pearl Harbor). His HOR was shown as Cleveland OH because he enlisted there - and stayed Cleveland OH until he retired as a colonel in 1973. He never lived in Cleveland. |
|
Originally Posted By BadgerArms ....but that still wasn't the point. ___________________________________________________________________ After serving in the Air Force for 25 years, I totally agree that I would not have given a copy of my orders to anyone, outside CBPO. Too much personal info on them. That's a good point. But you have to understand that any FFL holder will have just as strong feelings about giving our beloved ATF any reason to look twice at them. It had nothing to do about you being active duty. It had everything to do about them being careful! And that is also a good point. Try to understand their point of view. Move on. |
Amendment II. A well regulated Milita, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I'm sorry for the stab at Del-ton I was emotional for a minute. It's just a sad state of affairs, for a company, dealer, FFL, to have to put up with this shit!!..................andy |
And this is why I will continue to buy from ya'll! |
|
no problems here. placed order on saturday and was shipped on tuesday. called to verify they had my ffl, the operator was the sweatest lady ive ever talked to on the phone. they will be my goto supplier. the kit went together smooth as silk and has yet to malfuction. |
First off, apology accepted. The BATFE agent is incorrect and is going beyond their power in telling you that you must keep records. I'll take my business elsewhere from now on though, if you don't mind. I didn't get the impression that you had sympathy for me at all. In fact, I was really put out that you doubted the validity of my orders. Further, you completely blew off my desire NOT to have my family's personal information, my SSAN, my security clearance infromation, unit of assignment, or any of the other personal information on this form stored and available to you. Sure, it's not your fault, but I'm the one that was inconvenienced here. North Carolina law does NOT prohibit you from selling long guns to citizens of non-contiguous states. To quote state law:
... and Federal:
While I don't doubt that you BELIEVE that you cannot sell firearms to people from non-contiguous states and that you must keep a photocopy of my orders, you are mistaken. I accept your apology in that you TRUSTED the BATFE and that you have a right to refuse service to anybody you wish. The problem here is that your policy singles out Military folks like myself effectively making us a sub-class and treating us differently than others because we choose to fight for your freedom. What you THOUGHT was right wasn't right. I'll assume good faith and I still feel that you did what you believed was right, wrong as it might have turned out to be. Please read the laws better and don't sacrafice your customers for ignorant ATF agents overstepping their authority. BA |
No, it's not the same info. The following information is not on the 4473: * Social Security account number * TDY's en route * Security Clearance * Unit of Assignment * Wife's Maiden name * Date of Marriage * Names and birth dates of all my children. * AFSC * Prior unit * Military status of spouse * Follow-on assignment The only thing that's the same on the two forms is the name! Exactly who's ass is being covered if they keep this information? |
Really?
I've never seen any of that stuff on the paper work I've had to fill out when buying a gun. On top of that, I can see the OP's frustration. Especially if they told him first, before his three hour drive, that they needed to see his orders then said they had to keep his orders. |
Wow, the Navy doesn't even put the entire SSN on orders anymore. There are just to many places that orders are required. I think the USAF may want to learn a lesson here. That's too damn much information. Red is what is on Navy orders these days. Nothing else, like security clearance is on them. No need to. Everything is already in automated systems. |
I appreciate the advice, however you are wrong. According to the BATFE and for the purposes of purchasing a firearm, I am a resident of the state in which I am permanently assigned. My state of LEGAL residence is and will remain Alaska as will my drivers license, vehicle tags, etc. I'm not here by choice... BY ANY MEANS. I was a non-volunteer and have protections under the SSRA. |
I'd like to see where the SSRA says anything about a driver's license. |
Actually, good Badger, I am not wrong. To purchase a firearm, you have to prove residency. You can't just tell the FFL you are a resident of X state and you, as a former FFL, know that. All your documentation, save your orders, shows you as a resident of Alaska, Correctly, you know that as a servicemember, your residency for purchasing a firearm is where you are stationed. Since you have deliberately chosen not to follow the path of least resistance and get an NC driver's license with an NC address on it (even if it is on Pope AFB), then you have to show your orders. Now, you could take a black magic marker and redact all the info you mentioned above on one copy, go to a xerox machine and press 'print' and have a nice redacted copy to keep in your glove box when the Onslow County deputy pulls you over for speeding or when you want to get a pistol purchase permit out of the Cumberland County sheriff (and Moose's people will want a copy, etc.). I understand you don't want to be here. That's fine. |
You're still wrong, but the Sharpie solution is the one I'm going with. I have to show the dealer proof that I'm a resident, they cannot force me to keep my proof. Even the State Department returned my Birth Certificate. The path of least resistance is not the path I choose to follow. I've got a Sharpie-marked copy in my glove box now, however it's mostly sharpie. I give my Alaska citizenship as much or more weight than I give my American citizenship. |
who do you goto in PA? i've had several lowers sent here (one was a tom sawyer custom lower, another was an LMT from denny), everything was done via fax, and i had my lowers in a couple days (shipping time). you can verify FFL information online now. it is not a complicated process and any dealer that is giving you the run around is just mad that you are using them for a transfer and not buying their junk. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Del-Ton service... Bad experience (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor