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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - M16 Reliability in Iraq (Page 1 of 4)
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[Begin Rant] WTF over. Yea, that is called "operator error". Pay attention, they are the next ones you will see in the "Al Jazeera" videos. Tap-rack-bang. If that fails remedial action. How about taking your buddies toes off because you are dump enough to pull the trigger while waving your muzzle around. Dear god I hope this admin unit never gets ambushed. This has nothing to do with reliability and EVERYTHING to do with training [End Rant] |
| All I have to say is I wonder what they were doing at the training they did prior to deployment. Must be a soldier shortage for some reason. I had always been led to believe that the difference between the reliability of the AR and the AK was the level of training of the grunts. IE, the M16 works for us because we are a professional army. |
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What lonewolfUSMC said That has NOTHING at all to do with AR/M16 reliability, instead is has everything to do with non Combat Arms MOS types who never took their soldiering seriously and then got sent to Iraq where they might actually have to fire their weapons (or at least understand their function). That video is about the Army thinking that some 92Y or 42L is the same as 11B or 21B or other ground pounder. The fact that the soldiers in the video were laughing and thought the whole thing was funny instead of becoming immediately sober due to reflecting on the fact that they were halfway around the world and didnt know anything about their weapons. P.S. I am not trying to step on anyones feet or offend anyone. But the video shows a serious lack of training, not a problem with the AR platform. |
You think those idiots could work an AK? No way, no chance. Ever seen a guy who was slightly trained in the M16 try to put a mag in an AK? Its a laugh riot. |
 Nice. So I suppose they try to insert the AK mag straight in rather than putting it in canted to the front and rotating it back until the "Click" Is heard. |
Not about the reliability of the M16 as the title of your thread states.
What he said. This is a case of unit eat the fuck up with dumbass, not an unreliable weapon. |
+ 21 Idiot ass clerks and jerks can't even operate a rifle. |
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When I first saw it I thought 'Must be Air Force types'. Then I got to thinking. No they could former Navy they transferred into a Guard or Reserve unit before deployment. We had 2 former Navy that had joined our Guard Unit in the 80s. Their performance on the rifle range was not too dissimilar. (No offense to the Navy vets - but most that I've me had no small arms weapons training, certainly the two that were in our unit did not). |
Thats true about Navy getting no training on small arms,i got to shoot a 1911 in boot one time. and while it was a 1911 it was a converted one to .22 what a joke.Cheap bastages! |
When my younger brother returned from Basic, I was quite impressed on how he handles an M-16/AR-15.
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Made link hot: www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab60662ad6 As to the Navy, they didn't do much in the way of small arms training when I was in. You got that at your advanced training/unit if you needed it, otherwise you fired your .22 converted 1911 at a target and raised your hand so the instructors could come change your magazine for you. Fortunately after the USS Cole, the Navy is taking small arms training more seriously and all sailors get better training. ETA: No point in making it hot since for some reason the software is adding a <BR> into the link even though there is no break. You'll have to cut & paste. |
+202 on WTF over
Actually it looks like they wouldn't know proper procedure and training if it came up and bit them on the ass. That speaks volume to those two soldiers, the quality of their training and their leadership. Hell they couldn't even perform the most basic of skills like correcting a malfunction. Stupid POG's acting like idiots. Common thing to see here. Did some right seat rides with a Engineer unit, showing them the area that they would be taking over, lets just say they didn't leave a good impression. Beyond flagging their buddies and us, walking around like idiots, and even had one look down his barrel while it was loaded. I can't speak very highly of them. |
| Not to keep the thread going, but if the gun is too complicated for our "professional army" to handle reliably then it is not reliable. This said, I have 9 AR's of various barrel lengths and setups and have only had one problem rifle that was quickly fixed once I realized OLY misassembled it. |
So what should they use then? I assure you an AK is far too complex for them. They dont know normal gun saftey. Those clowns shouldnt have ANY rifles. |
And everyone should know how to get an AK into action!! You never know!!! |
WTF? You go from mis-naming a thread to applying the behavior of three tards to the Army as whole? What do you propose, a sharp stick? Rocks? These idiots display a total lack of firearms knowledge and unsafe behavior. The fact that one of them is stupid enough to not only video it but thinks that it is funny is more proof that it's not the weapon, it's the dolt behind it. |
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Nope. AKs take about 5 minutes most to learn to operate and field strip. My Dad taught me to shoot one and field strip blindfolded when I was 9. There is no excuse for "soldiers" to be unable to defend themselves. Better training with more shooting is a must, but so is a gun that matches the training. why not an AK, Galil, Robinson Arms XCR, UZI who knows for the idiots if they are going to skimp on the training. Training isn't going to happen, I think back to Seal Team 6 that shot more ammo in a year in training than the entire US Marine Corps and they were widely criticized in the military establishment for overspending on training. The fact was not that the seals were training to much it was that the Corps that trains more than the Army, actually trained too little. Why pay more for training all the troops when you can make a congressman happy by buying some million dollars + missiles from his district. |
Now your just being an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. |
So you're hard core from way back. BFD.
No argument there. This video shows a lack of training, which indicates a leadership failure. It also shows that these individuals didn't take their training seriously. Nobody who's made it through BRM should display this level of incompetence.
The current service weapon does. What the video shows is not a problem with the weapon, it is a problem with the user and the leadership of that unit. At all levels.
1. Because those weapons are not used by the US military. 2. The level of weapons handling skill displayed by those clowns makes them dangerous with ANY weapon, period. You seem to be unable to grasp that concept. You want to keep blaming the weapon. You've lsot that argument, you just won't give it up.
Whatever. Hillarity continues. |
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I don't think that I was say that I am hard core but whatever, I've had numerous guns throughout the years almost exclusively military rifles/pistols/subguns. I personally took it on my self to provide shooting lessons to a couple friends and others from their units who were stationed on the MS gulf coast in the Navy Seabees and Air force in the M9, AK and AR-15. All they had to do was bring the Ammo. In the case of the Seabees, they had very little training except when they qualified. The training was to save their lives at their own expense. One of the Seabees, a heavy equipment operator, carried an AK he purchased in theater when he was deployed and kept his M16 stowed because he was responsible for every round and not allowed to practice in the field and he liked the fact that the AK was simple to clean and worked on a simple principle. He switched to the Mark 19 for things farther away. Numerous examples exist of countries issuing alternative weapons to soldiers in support roles. There is nothing to prevent the US from following suit in adopting a special weapon for those with little training. We have guns in storage captured from all over the world including AKs, so AKs would be dirt cheap almost free. he While the soldiers are clearly not safe, the rifles are also suffering from an almost complete FTF. Safety doesn't matter as long as they can keep the weapon pointed away from friendlies and in the general direction of the target until help arrives. In their current state not having a gun that goes bang every time the pull the trigger is their biggest problem. They could have been trained on a Mini-14 in less than 5 minutes. I mean seriously hook a brother up with something that goes boom every time even if you haven't heard of a charging handle. |
+21 again 
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What we see here are corpses with the temporary use of their arms and legs. Complete unfamiliarity with the maintenance and manual of arms of their weapons. I'll bet the M16's are malfunctioning because some brainless REMF (like the woman holding the camera) hasn't maintained their weapon. Magazines that have been stepped on when loaded, no lubrication and a good deal of sand in the weapon. This incident should scare the hell out of these idiots rather than amuse them. A freind of mine served in Vietnam right when the M16 had many of it's problems. He knew the weak points of the weapon and dealt with them accordingly. He cleaned his weapon 4 times per day rain or shine, used or not used. He was professional enough to know that weapon was his life and the life of a buddy next to him. His "POS" M16 never (ever) failed him in a firefight. Soon, others in his unit started asking why he thought the M16 was such a good weapon...and they learned a little something. |
Did you want a cookie, because i left it on the counter next to your glass of milk sweetheart
Suuuure he did pumpkin, and fairies really do bring good little boys and girls stripped lowers in the middle of the night.
We would do this, why?
gee, since they didn't pay attention to the safe weapons handling part of BASIC training, why do you assume that they paid attention to the weapons maintenance part? obviously they don't maintain their weapons. Oh, and here's a newsflash, the Mini-14 (though always reliable for B.A. and the rest of the A-team) is not a good example of a tough and rugged weapon. Contrary to television, combat happens in real world conditions where weapons need to be constantly maintained against and in spite of the elements. To sum it all up, the kids table is in the kitchen, help yourself to the crow. |
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Exactly. Training and professionalism but in absense of either, something simple. I have never had a problem with a mini-14 clean or dirty, with thousands of rounds and no cleaning, same with an AK. Isn't it amazing how I can type sentences and do it all without being rude. The hilarity continues no doubt. |
, too.
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They have figured out how to point the rifles more or less down range, at least not at one another. If it was full auto and the gun would stop jamming eventually the muzzle rise would result in a shot generally in the direction of the enemy. There's hope for them. Even if they don't get the safety rules. how hard is it to pull back the bolt, jack a round in the chamber and pull the trigger in the general direction of the enemy till the cavalry arrives? They need something that that allows them to KISS since the more difficult concepts are escaping them. No matter how many times you pull back the charging handle and jam it forward nothing is going to happen if your gun is jammed. Gas piston technology while old is better than the alternative used on the current issue M4s and it would be incredible if there was a handle on the bolt to help with clearing jams. Failure to chamber on the first round and then failure to load led to the wild shot. Easier chambering/jam clearing would help that. Simplicity is the best bet for morons. |
The guy shot the ground 2 feet in front of himself, that is not where the enemy is. They probably know the computer supply system awsome, but no different weapons could help him not shoot the ground in front of himself, or stop the other maroons from taking it lightly. Here is how hard it is to work an M16: tap rack bang. Here is how hard it is to work an AK: rock rack bang. Think it will make that much of a difference? |
 AK's wouldn't jam in those conditions and neither should our M16's- idiot POG's or not. True these soldiers probably didn't have the proper lube on their weapons, probably hadn't detailed stripped them on a daily basis to keep the silt like sand out of the action but again- these weapons should have functioned. Let's not forget these are mil-spec Colt's as well. C77  |
Uh, yeah. Sure thing.
Practice in the field?
The M4 and 16 are easy to clean as well. 10 minutes tops. And that's a fairly detailed PMCS. And lacking a last round hold open, ergonomic safety and mag release, those are better how? Not to mention that if things WERE to go to shit, he's now firing a weapon that sounds like the enemy's?
Yup, and that's exactly what you're seeing in the video. An alternative weapon called the A2. Keeping the manual of arms and logistics simple. Streamlined even. You keep failing to grasp that.
Sure there is. It's called commonality of parts and usage. Not to mention supplying several hundred thousand troops depoyed all over the damn world. See, when your army is a few tens of thousands of troops located in a country the size of New Jersey, logistics are a little easier even for multiple weapon platforms. We don't have that luxury.
The behavior displayed in your video link makes them unsafe with ANY weapon. ANY. ANY. ANY. ANY. Got it yet?
You incessantly bitch that the level of training is not sufficient to the current generally issued weapon that they all received training on in BRM, and now you suggest complicating that training and requiring even MORE training on foreign weapons? Come on now, get real.
The illogic and falsity of your position is laid out and we're a cult? Good one.
"Hey Pot, yeah Kettle here. You won't believe me but...." Talk about blindness? Check the mirror dude.
Given that they don't even take the fact that they are holding a deadly weapon seriously, do you really expect them to stop watching American Idol long enough to learn how to maintain their weapons?
Uh, yeah it does.
Again, a leadership and training failure. Not a mechanical failure. Which is easier: remedial training for these tards on a weapon system that is already the service weapon and supported in the field, or dragging out several hundred thousand non-existent captured AKs and handing them out, plus training a ton of 45 series troops in S&S on the Ak, then procuring a manufacturer for replacement parts, then another for USGI acceptable ammo? You probably didn't think of a single one of those aspects.
And on paper at least, they were trained for several days or weeks depending on how long they've been in on the M16. So how does your solution solve that problem?
Why not a pointy stick? That's pretty much idiot-proof AND the LCD solution as you suggest. |
Holy Christ I think that is one of the most assinine statements regarding weapon handling that I think I've ever seen on the interweb.
Jeebus man, they can't get the most basic of four rules down. That is as KISS as it gets!
Maybe I'm missing the benefits of all that SeeBee supplemental firearms training, but what RA involves jamming the CH forward?
Really? And you base this on what? Your extensive Mini14 and AK training for SeeBees and SP types?
It would be incredible if you had any clue how little you really know.
I'll defer to your vastly greater experience in that field. |
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"m24shooter"- how many minutes did you waist picking the peanuts out of "jurist's" shit? I mean c'mon, people are entitled to differing opinions and not everyone on this website has to tow the party line or drink the cool-aid. Sorry but the video is what it is- a double weapon malfunction clusterf*ck. C77 |
Oh not many. It really dosn't take that long.
Got no problem with him having an opinion. This is a discussion board. Maybe you didn't realize that discussion involves at least two parties discussing something. There's no party line or kool aid here. Just uninformed tripe. Sorry you missed that. I agree that there is a weapons malf in the video. The OP and I disagree as to the cause: his version (going by the title of his post) is that it is the weapon; I hold that is the user and his leadership. If that's too adult for you, I really don't care. Have a nice evening. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - M16 Reliability in Iraq (Page 1 of 4)
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