Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 3/18/2006 5:11:25 AM EDT
Are the new op rod uppers hot news just because they're new and different or are there any real advantages? Seriously, I've been shooting the standard AR platform (carbine and rifle length) for many years (many thousand rounds) with practically zero issues. What gives? I'm curious as to what benefit the op rod provides.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:13:29 AM EDT
heckofalot easier to clean.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:19:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RED_5:
heckofalot easier to clean.



Which part of cleaning a DI gun is difficult?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:56:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:

Originally Posted By RED_5:
heckofalot easier to clean.



Which part of cleaning a DI gun is difficult?




Gee, I dunno......maybe EVERYTHING inside the upper and lower receivers (bolt and carrier included)? Of course that depends on what your definition of "clean" is.

Piston system? Wipe out the upper, wipe off the bolt/carrier, clean the barrel, wipe off the piston area. Done. Notice I said WIPE and not SCRUB?


Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:58:28 AM EDT
can of brake cleaner and an oily rag cures all those scrubbing problems. Oh and a bore snake...

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:59:50 AM EDT
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:08:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.




The same amount of work (not "white glove") that you currently expend to keep your AR functional would make it "white glove" with a piston setup.

To me the ease of maintenance is the biggest factor. I'm a "white glove" type. And although I've never pushed a single round count that high, the top-end reliability is also a plus. In other words, a DI gun will most likely have a failure due to buildup before a piston gun would, albeit at high round counts.

To each his own. I own 2 piston rifles (one POF, one Leitner-Wise) and love 'em both! Of course I like my retro A1 rifle too.....
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:30:16 AM EDT
If it could be proven, on a large sample of rifles/with high round count tests, that the op rod design was more reliable, that would be significant. It's just hard to discount my personal experiences with the standard system. Has any manufacturer done any such testing?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:28:45 AM EDT
Alot of people dont get it either. Why the need to change if it doesnt offer any real world reliability/accuracy improvements?

I have no issues cleaning my rifle.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 9:24:42 AM EDT
I thought that piston system removed much of the AR's problem - heat. Aren't most FTE's caused after firing for long periods of time of hot gasses murdering your extractor?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 9:52:44 AM EDT
I recall reading somewhere recently that the gas piston systems reduce the accuracy potential of the AR.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 9:53:53 AM EDT
It's pretty simple really. If you don't get it, don't buy one. Choice is a wonderful thing.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:00:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
It's pretty simple really. If you don't get it, don't buy one. Choice is a wonderful thing.



Nicely put.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:29:18 AM EDT
unless you are crawling around a warzone with no cleaning gear the gas piston offers no advantage over the standard DI system, you can have a sandard DI clean in about 5 minutes if that, for your average shooter.

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time

this is the case of marketing genius at work
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 11:31:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wirebrush:
I recall reading somewhere recently that the gas piston systems reduce the accuracy potential of the AR.



I can tell you from experience that that is false. No less accurate than DI guns. I can get sub-MOA @ 50 yards with iron sights. A nickel will cover my groups.



TS
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:04:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By Wirebrush:
I recall reading somewhere recently that the gas piston systems reduce the accuracy potential of the AR.



I can tell you from experience that that is false. No less accurate than DI guns. I can get sub-MOA @ 50 yards with iron sights. A nickel will cover my groups.



TS



How about 300 or 600 yards?

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:49:29 PM EDT
Something else to consider about the piston systems would be what otehr reliability enhancing mods the system includes, ASIDE from the piston.

The L-W system does a damn good job of remedying (in theory) a lot of BCG related issues that I've found in testing.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:58:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighlandMac:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By Wirebrush:
I recall reading somewhere recently that the gas piston systems reduce the accuracy potential of the AR.



I can tell you from experience that that is false. No less accurate than DI guns. I can get sub-MOA @ 50 yards with iron sights. A nickel will cover my groups.



TS



How about 300 or 600 yards?




I don't have a range with that distance. But you can extrapolate from nickel sized groups at 50 yards with iron sights to 300 yards with iron sights or glass and 600 yards with glass.

TS

BTW: I'm not that good a shot either.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:01:02 PM EDT
Mine shoots MOF Minuite of Felon at the given ditances I care to shoot at. Cooler, cleaner, more reliable. Have not had any malfunctions with mutilpe different ammo and mags. Can't say the same for my bushmaster or Colt. I prefer the piston over the DI and will never look back.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:25:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?


NO!

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:37:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 4:12:53 PM EDT by Phoebus]

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?


NO!




1000s of rounds without cleaning a DI system? Surely you jest!

A gas system is by definition easier to clean. Also, a gas piston system does decrease the accuracy potential, but that doesn't mean you will see a real-world reduction in accuracy. The more mass you have moving around during firing (i.e. gas piston set up), the more non-angularly-reduced forces there are on the rifle. However, modern manufacturing and design methods and shooters are perfectly capable of making a gas piston system shoot as accurately as a DI system.

Me, I have no trouble with the DI system. If the piston systems were more in line with DI systems cost wise, I might get one, but I don't have the extra scratch just to make my cleaning easier.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:41:31 PM EDT

Everyone has a point... IMHO, the piston system is best suited for military use and really offer the average weekend warrior no plus. But would people end up getting it if the price is right... yup! Why? Cause it's new and neat... hell, half the current items people slap on their AR these days is there because it's the next-best-thing or something the gun magazine hype about.


~nb
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?



If I can get my digi cam working I'll show a pic or a DPMS BCG with around 60 rounds through it and a POF with 400 to 500rds through it. I haven't even bother to look as I know the POF will be cleaner.


TS
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:03:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?



If you string that thousand rounds across several range trips, the G36 is great... If you want to bang 1K through it in a class, get ready to be disappointed.

Something else that people usually post before I do... Piston op is also great for suppressed use, especially on short barrels. Making a DI sub-14.5" gun work straight from the factory with or without a can is a bitch.

Steve at Adco has managed to make short DI guns work with a can, but I can't recall if his will work without? I think Damian's was meant to work with/without, but anyhow...
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:21:17 PM EDT
Pics. They are blurry. POF BCG

DPMS BCG (note carbon of FP and bolt)

Hands after DPMS BCG


TS

Remember POF has 400+ rounds thru it. DPMS has 60 rounds thru it.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:21:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

the DI system is more than capable of going 1000's of rounds befor eany cleaning, more than 99 percent of those on this board shoot at a time




Is this true? Mine always tend to become iffy in the 500-1000 round range. A G36 can go a LOT more than that.

Does everyone feel like an AR can easily go thousands of rounds without cleaning?



Hmmm how many rounds would you like to go for? I'm picking up 1k of wolf on the first of the month. Rifle has about 300rds through it so far without cleaning at this time. How about I blow off that wolf before I bother to clean the rifle?


Just a hint before you accept the challenge. I've done this before without trouble. I'll never claim the DI system is better than others out there but it's a good system. And it works.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:41:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 3:42:32 PM EDT by danonly]
if someone is complaining that it takes a long time to clean the carbon off the bolt/ bc, they need to get some of this:





I don't know how much more expensive a DI is than a standard gas system, but i'll bet the right cleaner like the slip2000 stuff is a lot cheaper.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:58:24 PM EDT
Yeah... gas systems offer nothing new.

That's why Leitner-Wise is selling so many to the high speed, low drag types after they get a chance to try them out.

By a CLEANER system, it means that you don't get carbon build-up all over your internals. The gas piston systems are a snap to clean instead of having to strip the rifle down and scrub to keep it reliable. Having a rifle that is easy to clean even after several hundred rounds is pretty important to guys in Iraq who don't have the opportunity to sit down in front of the TV, beer in hand, and clean their rifles.

It also makes the short barreled AR's far more reliable.

The myth that it makes the AR less accurate was perpetuated by one of the manufacturers of DI systems who was bad mouthing Leitner-Wise. Real world testing has shown that it does nothing to affect accuracy. I'm pretty sure that if there was a negative effect on accuracy, there wouldn't be any post-test military buyers.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:59:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
It's pretty simple really. If you don't get it, don't buy one. Choice is a wonderful thing.



Actually, it's not that simple. If I were to see compelling evidence that the op rod upper is a substantial improvement, I might just buy one. So far though, I'm not convinced.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:09:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's pretty simple really. If you don't get it, don't buy one. Choice is a wonderful thing.



Actually, it's not that simple. If I were to see compelling evidence that the op rod upper is a substantial improvement, I might just buy one. So far though, I'm not convinced.


So it is that simple. You're not convinced, so you won't seperate from your hard-earned money. Win-win in my opinion.

I shot a HK 416 last weekend. I'm not convinced myself.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:30:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.




The same amount of work (not "white glove") that you currently expend to keep your AR functional would make it "white glove" with a piston setup.



He is right. Have you ever cleaned a non DI rifle? They are very easy to clean, especially AK's. Virtually all of the gunk in the AR is the result of DI.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:36:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burkey:

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.




The same amount of work (not "white glove") that you currently expend to keep your AR functional would make it "white glove" with a piston setup.



He is right. Have you ever cleaned a non DI rifle? They are very easy to clean, especially AK's. Virtually all of the gunk in the AR is the result of DI.



While I've shot various op rod rifles, the only one I've cleaned was a Mini 14. It was certainly cleaner inside, but no more reliable than my ARs. The cleaning issue isn't enough of a gain for me to switch from a system that's served me well. A documented reliablity gain might do it for me but I haven't seen that demonstrated yet.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:47:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By Burkey:

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.




The same amount of work (not "white glove") that you currently expend to keep your AR functional would make it "white glove" with a piston setup.



He is right. Have you ever cleaned a non DI rifle? They are very easy to clean, especially AK's. Virtually all of the gunk in the AR is the result of DI.



While I've shot various op rod rifles, the only one I've cleaned was a Mini 14. It was certainly cleaner inside, but no more reliable than my ARs. The cleaning issue isn't enough of a gain for me to switch from a system that's served me well. A documented reliablity gain might do it for me but I haven't seen that demonstrated yet.




Comparing a gas-piston AR to a Mini-14... apples and oranges, my friend.

A documented reliability gain? How about the fact that most all other military rifles in the world use a gas-piston?

FAL, G-36, SA-80, AUG, Sig 55x, etc. etc. all use a gas piston. If I remember correctly, most countries who have reproduced the M-16 added a gas piston.

It's not good when your rifle shits where it eats.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:05:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By Burkey:

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Well, I've never felt that the standard system was a hassel to clean (after I got over the white glove mentality early on), so that's not enough reason for me to dump a system that's worked well for me. Really, the standard rifle can have to upper, bolt, bolt carrier wiped off and lightly relubed and you're ready to go.




The same amount of work (not "white glove") that you currently expend to keep your AR functional would make it "white glove" with a piston setup.



He is right. Have you ever cleaned a non DI rifle? They are very easy to clean, especially AK's. Virtually all of the gunk in the AR is the result of DI.



While I've shot various op rod rifles, the only one I've cleaned was a Mini 14. It was certainly cleaner inside, but no more reliable than my ARs. The cleaning issue isn't enough of a gain for me to switch from a system that's served me well. A documented reliablity gain might do it for me but I haven't seen that demonstrated yet.



Um yeah about that... The Mini-14 is not a reliable rifle at all. It is, in my humble opinion, Ruger's worst design. The gas block has mating problems between the two halves right from the factory and it takes special grinding and manufacturing of a spacer to get it right. However after fixing that problem the accuracy and reliability shoot up. The only problem is when the Mini-14 was designed, it was a very new concept to the Ruger engineers so it is a fairly primitive system and nowhere near that of the G-36 series. The same applies to the new AR gas system in that the design is a new concept for manufacturers and thusly, it will have its flaws. I personally would not buy a piston system for at least two years; and not even then if it goes nowhere after the initial hype. I have serious doubts about the practical application of a system like this to non-military personnel (although they have a huge market in lazy people.)

What I think should be the next step in the history of the AR is a new type of ammunition. Not just a different caliber for that defeats the purpose. But a new powder to fuel ammo with. One which shoots much cleaner and needs less to generate the appropriate gasses. Or in my personal opinion, the best step would be to find a powder which instead of leaving carbon fouling, left some sort of material with a high lubricity. The ultimate acheival would be to have the 'shit', or powder byproduct, double as a temporary lubricant for the rifle. SOmebody said its not good to have your rifle shit where it eats; this would be their fundamental undoing. It would be like us shitting out New York tenderloin steaks.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Pics. They are blurry. POF BCG

DPMS BCG (note carbon of FP and bolt)

Hands after DPMS BCG


TS

Remember POF has 400+ rounds thru it. DPMS has 60 rounds thru it.



Those great pics really support your opinion.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:31:39 PM EDT
Guys, just to clarify things, I'm only comparing cleanlinessof the Mini 14 to that of the AR. Nothing more. It's the only op rod rifle I have experience with from a cleaning perspective.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:38:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neverenough:
Mine shoots MOF Minuite of Felon at the given ditances I care to shoot at. Cooler, cleaner, more reliable. Have not had any malfunctions with mutilpe different ammo and mags. Can't say the same for my bushmaster or Colt. I prefer the piston over the DI and will never look back.



You ain't shit 'til you can shoot MOD (Minute of Duck).
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:02:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 8:08:02 PM EDT by TigerStripe]

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Pics. They are blurry. POF BCG

DPMS BCG (note carbon of FP and bolt)

Hands after DPMS BCG


TS

Remember POF has 400+ rounds thru it. DPMS has 60 rounds thru it.



Those great pics really support your opinion.



My camera sucks. I had zero carbon on my hands from breaking down the POF BCG. You see what was on my hands from removing the cotter pin, letting the firing pin drop out and removing the (DI) DPMS bolt carrier group. POF-400-500 rounds of which 240 were Wolf. DPMS-60 rounds of WWB .223R1.

TS

ETA: Piston AR's will only "take off" in you (we) buy them. Most are waiting for the Colt and HK systems to come out. Two anti-civilian use of EBR companies. POF & Leitner-Wise are "unknown" companies. So was Armalite and the little Mattie Mattel rifle they had back in the '60's.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:07:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Pics. They are blurry. POF BCG

DPMS BCG (note carbon of FP and bolt)

Hands after DPMS BCG


TS

Remember POF has 400+ rounds thru it. DPMS has 60 rounds thru it.



Those great pics really support your opinion.



My camera sucks. I had zero carbon on my hands from breaking down the POF BCG. You see what was on my hands from removing the cotter pin, letting the firing pin drop out and removing the (DI) DPMS bolt carrier group. POF-400-500 rounds of which 240 were Wolf. DPMS-60 rounds of WWB .223R1.

TS



I know, I have seen similar pictures before, I just thought it was funny. You cant tell if either are dirty or not they are so blurry. :)
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:10:03 PM EDT
I can't take Stickman quality pics. I wish I could. It is kinda funny in a sad sorta way.


TS
Top Top