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Posted: 3/16/2006 6:15:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 7:29:11 PM EDT by Collin]
So, I recently purchased two Stag Arms lower receivers, stripped. The first one went together just as easily and as well as all the other Stag receivers I've ever done. The second, on the other hand, won't go together. All the holes are too small. Trigger and hammer pins? Won't go in. Safety/Selector? Won't go in. Front pivot pin? Went in with the aid of a non-marring hammer, but requres a punch to get out. Take down pin? Won't go in. Trigger guard roll pin? Went in with the aid of 87 hammer blows and a broken punch. So, I call Stag Arms to ask for help in rectifying the situation. Stag Arms refused to do anything unless I bought one of their parts kits and tried it. The fact that I tried multiple parts from multiple manufacturers in each and every hole meant nothing to them. The answer was, "We won't do anything to help unless you buy our parts kit." For some reason, I thought that they would want to help with their defective product, not force me to purchase more. I was wrong about Stag.

ETA: I have tons of parts bought from reputable sources. I tried FIVE different trigger pins. THREE different selector/safeties. I tried FOUR pivot pins, even removing some from other STAG receivers that had gone together perfectly.

Parts were sourced from Brownells, and RBPrecision. They worked fine in the first Stag receiver and won't go in AT ALL in the second receiver, purchased on the same day.

UPDATE: The fine folks at AIM Surplus are taking care of the problem. They will be exchanging the lower for a new Stag. Thanks to Erik and his staff for the great customer service.

UPDATE II: I took the advice of another forum member and put drill bits in the proper holes. I turned them by hand, and took off a teensy tiny bit of anodizing, maybe a thousandth or three. It made all the difference in the world and all is now OK with the lower. It appears that the anodizing was a hair too thick, and was causing the problems. Thanks to all who responded.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:19:23 AM EDT



that's extremely uncharacteristic of Stag. i had a problem with one of their uppers while i was still living in CT. the head of quality there invited me into the factory and walked me around the joint while they got me a new upper.


Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:19:56 AM EDT
I dont want to sound like a asshole, but you should have used one of their LPK's
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:22:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I dont want to sound like a asshole, but you should have used one of their LPK's



For what possible reason? I have tons of parts bought from reputable sources. I tried FIVE different trigger pins. THREE different selector/safeties. I tried FOUR pivot pins, even removing some from other STAG receivers that had gone together perfectly.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:22:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I dont want to sound like a asshole, but you should have used one of their LPK's





+1


or state who's lpk you are using
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:23:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:25:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I dont want to sound like a asshole, but you should have used one of their LPK's




Disagree,

These manufactures claim their stuff is "milspec", then it should be interchangable.


This is 2006 not 1632, we have a concept called interchangable parts.

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:26:27 AM EDT
Unfortunately this industry right now is ripe with shitty customer service. They have too much business and don't really need to worry about your issue with them not finish reaming one of their lowers.

I have learned to accept it by making minor changes when fitting parts myself or taking stuff to machinist to have him finish stuff for me on more complicated issues.

When I order something from a manufacturer or a dealer and they dont ship it when they say they will I cancel the order without question. Screw 'em. They have what I need so I buy it when the price is right and expect fit and finish issues about 8 times out of 10.

Sorry but the firearms and accesories industry does not impress me in the least....
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:27:12 AM EDT
Parts came from Brownells and from RBPrecision. Brownells parts kits are DPMS, RBPrecision parts kits were Rock River and their own brand. I know my parts. I've built a lot of lowers.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:30:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 6:31:09 AM EDT by JTAC_Supply]
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:33:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:34:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 6:35:47 AM EDT by Collin]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I'd have to agree that that is an unusual complaint about Stag. However I suspect that they have had similar complaints about people using POS chinese parts kits that are out of spec trying to get them into an in spec Stag lower.



Aimless, I have put together well over a dozen lowers. I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that this ONE particular Stag lower is out of spec. I know my ARs very well, and tried numerous parts in each slot on the lower. I suspected that my parts might be the problem at first, but when you try part after part after part, removing them even from other rifles and other Stag lowers, the odds that every other part is out of spec becomes nil. Aimless, I know this lower is out of spec. I'm not angry that a bad one got out the door, I expect every company to make an occassional mistake. I'm angry at their behaviour towards me.


eta: I didn't think that you were ragging on me, Aimless.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:34:48 AM EDT
Sounds like "thick" anodizing when you have more than 1 hole that doesn't accept "standard" parts. You may try a number & fractional drill bit set and some tw25b. Use the non fluted ends of a slightly smaller drill bit and burnish (smooth out) the ID of the holes.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:38:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 6:39:08 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Collin:
So, I call Stag Arms to ask for help in rectifying the situation. Stag Arms refused to do anything unless I bought one of their parts kits and tried it. The fact that I tried multiple parts from multiple manufacturers in each and every hole meant nothing to them.

The answer was, "We won't do anything to help unless you buy our parts kit."




That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Stag lower / Stag lower parts kit - It kind of makes sense.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:38:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:41:26 AM EDT
Where did he lowers come from?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:45:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Where did he lowers come from?



I'm going to hold onto that information until I talk to them. I'll let you guys know if they are helpful. (I fully expect them to be)
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:46:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:47:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:51:40 AM EDT
I agree that it shouldnt matter the parts kit used. They should have replaced it and tried their parts kit in it themselfs, it is just too easy to do that way. I had a similar experience with US Tactical Supplies when I orderd my ACI rail mount, it wouldnt fit any of my uppers, they guy told me that I needed to use it on a Colt, which I believe was way out of line as it is not advertised for use on just a Colt but in the end he offerd to take it back and give me a refund but he basicly called me a liar so I just filed the part down myself and made it fit. Not very good when you dont trust your customers.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:55:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Unless you already have a lpk laying around...why spend the extra $50 for something you don't need?



That’s fine, UNTIL you ask a company to refund/warranty the lower. Stag has no idea what lower parts kit you are using or how "In-Spec" (I hate that term) it is. They also have no idea how qualified you are to assemble the lower. You could be using some cheap POS lower parts kit for all they know. It seems perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for them to suggest using their LPK first. If that doesn't fix the problem, now Stag has a problem.

This is why many companies have stopped selling stripped lowers in the first place. Too many guys were using lower quality LPK's and then badmouthing/requesting refunds/warranty work from the lower manufacturer when they had problems.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:55:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SamColt:
Unfortunately this industry right now is ripe with shitty customer service. They have too much business and don't really need to worry about your issue with them not finish reaming one of their lowers.

I have learned to accept it by making minor changes when fitting parts myself or taking stuff to machinist to have him finish stuff for me on more complicated issues.

When I order something from a manufacturer or a dealer and they dont ship it when they say they will I cancel the order without question. Screw 'em. They have what I need so I buy it when the price is right and expect fit and finish issues about 8 times out of 10.

Sorry but the firearms and accesories industry does not impress me in the least....



+1 to that. Thank god we have Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:10:09 AM EDT
Shit evevn norinco ARs take good quality parts.I have a friend in nova scotia who has one there built well like an A1 copy with crappy furniture...Stag is out of line if the same parts used fit in another receiver what diference does using their parts make..these lowers should be parts interchangeable.Its like when RRA came up with the DEA rifle.During the governments test they strip down all the rifles competing and rebuild them with who evers parts to see if the rifles are truly interchangeable...you think stag would have told the government "use our parts" if that happened during their test..hell no because the government would have sent the crappy receiver back and said "your lower didnt stand up to parts interchangeability in trials"There are plenty of other places offering lowers to put up with that bullshit.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:11:38 AM EDT
Regardless of which LPK's are used if they are acquired froma reputable source it shouldn't matter. I say definitely contact the dealer you bought the lower from and see if he/she will get this straigtened out for you. I would love to see the reactions of the folks claiming Stag lower/ Stag LPK if this happened to them and they had used parts they know would work in any other rifle they had and were being forced to buy another set. That just doesn't make sense.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:17:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I dont want to sound like a asshole, but you should have used one of their LPK's




Disagree,

These manufactures claim their stuff is "milspec", then it should be interchangable.


This is 2006 not 1632, we have a concept called interchangable parts.




Big +1. If you sell a stripped lower, the implication is that any in-spec parts kit should fit. Otherwise, why would you sell them separately?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:24:41 AM EDT
Post Pics.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:44:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Unless you already have a lpk laying around...why spend the extra $50 for something you don't need?



That’s fine, UNTIL you ask a company to refund/warranty the lower. Stag has no idea what lower parts kit you are using or how "In-Spec" (I hate that term) it is. They also have no idea how qualified you are to assemble the lower. You could be using some cheap POS lower parts kit for all they know. It seems perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for them to suggest using their LPK first. If that doesn't fix the problem, now Stag has a problem.

This is why many companies have stopped selling stripped lowers in the first place. Too many guys were using lower quality LPK's and then badmouthing/requesting refunds/warranty work from the lower manufacturer when they had problems.



Why couldn't STAG tell the customer to caliper the various holes? I'm sorry but the statement to "buy a STAG LPK before we'll assist" is a cop out in my opinion. How many thousandths are we talking about anyway?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:45:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 7:49:06 AM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:55:38 AM EDT
Stickman, thanks for the comments. The only reason I called Stag first was to inquire if there was something I might do at home. The dealer, AIM Surplus is about an hour's drive. I would have been thrilled if there was a simple fix, but the basic disbelief that anything they put out the door wouldn't be perfect and poor consumer relationship skills the rep had really soured me. Basically, I was looking for advice. I knew that the dealer, AIM would do the right thing, but I'm ticked at the way I was treated by Stag when I called to ask for a hand. Instead of the response I got, a simple, "that sounds like a problem, are you sure that your parts are in spec?" would have been great. I don't feel that i was treated the right way by Stag, the CSR tried to make it MY fault, even when I told him about all the different parts I'd tried. Yes, it was the attitude that ticked me off more than anything.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:05:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:09:40 AM EDT
Interestingly, the two receivers I got from AIM were sequentially numbered. One was perfect, the other WAY too tight to assemble parts into. Weird. I'll get you the serial # this evening.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:31:59 AM EDT
Did you try the parts the fit the good one in the bad one?

Did you take any measurements of any parts that did not fit?

Just need some data.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By comp1911:
Did you try the parts the fit the good one in the bad one?

Did you take any measurements of any parts that did not fit?

Just need some data.



Sure did. I covered that in previous posts.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:38:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:54:45 AM EDT
About the same response I got when I called regarding my lower receivers, I had similar problems with the front takedown pin holes on most of them, and a couple other pin holes as well.

Stag: "you must not be using one of our parts kits"
Gamma: "yes I am actually, nor do any other parts I have fit"
Stag: "oh"

I ended up dremmeling the lower parts to make them fit
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:59:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SamColt:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Unless you already have a lpk laying around...why spend the extra $50 for something you don't need?



That’s fine, UNTIL you ask a company to refund/warranty the lower. Stag has no idea what lower parts kit you are using or how "In-Spec" (I hate that term) it is. They also have no idea how qualified you are to assemble the lower. You could be using some cheap POS lower parts kit for all they know. It seems perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for them to suggest using their LPK first. If that doesn't fix the problem, now Stag has a problem.

This is why many companies have stopped selling stripped lowers in the first place. Too many guys were using lower quality LPK's and then badmouthing/requesting refunds/warranty work from the lower manufacturer when they had problems.



Why couldn't STAG tell the customer to caliper the various holes? I'm sorry but the statement to "buy a STAG LPK before we'll assist" is a cop out in my opinion. How many thousandths are we talking about anyway?



I understand companies, maybe more so in this "industry" then some others, have to deal with a lot of different people and a fair number of those people are stupid, crazy or simply misinformed. Sucks for them but that's part of doing business. Still, I can see were a company who believes they put out a top quality product would be skeptical when a customer they do not know calls about an unusual (for them) problem. I can see where in a case like this they might first assume it's the LPK and not their product. That being the case, I still think their response to this was complete BS and a very poor example of CS.

The fact that he has parts that fit in all of his other lowers (some of which are also Stag) should have told them something. Regardless. The quickest, easiest thing they should have done was to ask the customer to send in the lower on his dime. That wouldn't have cost them a dime but they would then be able to look at it first hand and verify whether or not it was in "Spec". If it was indeed bad, they could have then shipped him a replacement and a refunded him for his shipping costs. If the lower was in-spec, they could have left it up to the customer for him to pay the shipping to return it to him as is or, if he wants, they could install one of their LPK's in it for the cost of the parts only.

If they wanted to really take care of this guy and honestly believed it was the LPK he was using, they could have sent him an LPK for free (I mean honestly, how much could their cost really be on those?). If he was wrong and it was the LPK, you charge him for it. If he was right, you let him keep the LPK for his troubles and work out a lower exchange ASAP.

I also disagree that we, the customers, should always contact the dealer, instead of the manufacturer to resolve these types of issues. Typically speaking, it's not the dealer's fault and usually they haven't made that much money on the deal anyway. Why should they have to loose time, and possibly money trying to resolve an issue that is not of their doing?

Don't misunderstand me. I find it great that we have so many stand up dealers here that are more then willing to play middle man in these cases and make sure their customers do not get screwed. Depending on the part\company in question, the dealer may in-fact be the best\only source of recourse. I myself have had to use dealers to get things taken care of but still, for me, when I have a problem with a part, I will first try to go straight to the source.

Just my $.02 on this
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:25:44 AM EDT
I had the same sit with a lower and I used stag lpk, the front pivot and rear take down pin were the worst. Ive put about 1000 rounds through it and I still need to tap the pins with a hammer. I don't care its not worth the bother of sending it out to get a new one.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:49:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:23:25 AM EDT
If Stag was listening to the customer, they would know that a) he is a competent 'smith b) who has verified that parts that were installed into the other Stag lower do not fit into this one, c) multiple different components from different brand LPKs that fit into the other lower do not fit into this one, all with the exact same symptom of the holes being too small. That right there, from a 'troubleshooting' perspective is all you need to know to determine that it's a bad lower and an exchange should be the next thing to occur. Even if Collin is completely wrong and they end up replacing the lower for nothing, it ultimately costs them less than would a reputation for poor customer service. Hell, they can even re-sell the returned lower if it specs out ok, it's technically not used. They end up paying shipping costs to keep a customer (who talks to other customers) happy. Big deal. And if Collin is right, they get to identify a flaw in their manufacturing/QA process.

The statements of "Stag didn't know if you were using a junk LPK, or if you knew what you were doing", aren't true *if* they were listening to the customer. The deaf and blind responses of "you have to try xyz before we'll help you" really irritate me when you've already done enough research to prove that the part is defective.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:11:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:58:10 PM EDT
Sounds good to me. If you're really curious, mike the holes before you send it in. Then inspect the returned lower and see if it was either "adjusted" or replaced.
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