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Posted: 3/10/2006 12:50:10 PM EDT
Sorry if this isn't the right forum...but when people talk about rifle accuracy (MOA), are they shooting from one of those rifle benches? I'd imagine it'd be more consistent than using front sand bags unless you're just that good.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 2:06:55 PM EDT
This thread may get moved.
Put "Minute Of Angle" in the google search engine to research it.
Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 2:13:01 PM EDT
When I talk about MOA with my ARs it is off a sand bags or bipod and sand bag on the stock.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 2:34:37 PM EDT
My testing is done prone, with a sling and shooting coat. No bench, no bipod, no sandbags, no scope.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:09:19 PM EDT
Forgive me, I misunderstood your question.
I prefer a concrete table for accuracy testing/target shooting. Sand bags supporting both the handguard and stock. Some prefer commercial rests, I like the bags. Settle the gun into the bags so that the cross hair is on target without having to "hold" it in position. The idea is not to interfere with the rifle during discharge. For me, the most important factors are a stable platform, barrel, and cartridge. I'm not an expert, this is simply what works for me. You may also consider obtaining a practice round so you can perform dry fire exercises in order to train yourself not to flinch.
Again, have a nice day.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:39:28 PM EDT
Mechanical accuracy of the gun and the load is best tested on a solid bench with repeatable rests, in good conditions. For testing loads or barrels on our bolt guns we always used a rear bag and a good front pedistal rest. I have one gun that has some 5 shot groups from the high .0's to some .2s' and high .3's. When the wind kicks up or the sun and mirage start doing their tricks the groups open up. I'm not a benchrest shooter but have rubbed elbows with some of the best. I determine a rifles accuracy potential as being an "honest" average of groups that I didn't screw up. Even from a bench with good rests, the human factor is evident.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:57:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
My testing is done prone, with a sling and shooting coat. No bench, no bipod, no sandbags, no scope.



Exactly... zero it like you shoot it. My only exception might be when working up a load, but that has more to do with the time that it takes, and reducing the effect of simply getting tired shooting for such a long time. Using bags during "workups" reduces variables. That being said, I ZERO the new load like SWO. Prone, slung-up.

When taking a class with Jim Owens last summer. He had people using a roll of toilet paper under their left arm when doing long prone sessions at 600 yards. Just enough to rest upon but only having to raise up into proper slung position enough to take their arm off it. Helped during long workouts. (by the way, a kind of goofy but fun exersize, we shot 600 yards with our eyes closed to prove the value of position. Settle into natural point of aim. Close eyes, two breaths, squeeze. On the paper, amazing)

But to answer xLusiOn's original question: When you see "published" accuracy figures, especially in specs or advertisements, they are usually quoted being shot off a bench, using a rest or bags. Bipods are not as good as a bag, and many an experienced shoooter will perfer their rucksack to a sand bag.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:18:05 PM EDT
Last weekend I had my best 3 shot group ever. At the bench with a Harris bipod only.

Here's the gun:


Here's the group:
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:33:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 8:34:25 PM EDT by Wingman26]
100 yards off hand.*


*Well sorta...on a concrete bench.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:58:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 3:59:02 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By simonsay:
Mechanical accuracy of the gun and the load is best tested on a solid bench with repeatable rests, in good conditions. For testing loads or barrels on our bolt guns we always used a rear bag and a good front pedistal rest. I have one gun that has some 5 shot groups from the high .0's to some .2s' and high .3's. When the wind kicks up or the sun and mirage start doing their tricks the groups open up. I'm not a benchrest shooter but have rubbed elbows with some of the best. I determine a rifles accuracy potential as being an "honest" average of groups that I didn't screw up. Even from a bench with good rests, the human factor is evident.



That's all true. But how many people never get off the bench and shoot from practical positions?

I can take my highpower prone position, remove the shooting coat, replace the shooting glove with a plain leather glove, replace the simple M1 sling with a 3 point tactical strap, assume the same position and lay down a group at 300 yards that will make swiss cheese out of a human silhouette target.

How many shooters do you see that are uttely lost without at least a bipod?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:57:11 AM EDT
If your going to confirm the accuracy of a gun, you can use whatever it takes(Sandbags, rests) to set it up so there is almost no part on the shooter to steady the rifle.

But to practice markmanship, you should shoot from all positions.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:59:59 PM EDT
To clarify, I did mean when people wanted to confirm the accuracy of their rifle. So I guess what ^ said about using whatever it took to have minimal human feedback.

Thanks for the inputs.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:02:46 PM EDT
I shoot off my cheap Harris bi-pod and still get .25-.5 MOA all day long. The reason is understanding and EXECUTING rifle basics. My friends and I laugh when these guys have a mountain of sandbags and show nice accurate groups. That's great and all, but pick the thing up, move 2 stations over and execute that 3 shot group again in under 2 minutes.

I'm only "cocky" about this because I spent a lot of time, training and practicing my craft and hate when folks try to throw stuff in the face of friends and myself. The other test for them is to execute that shot on demand, not holding position for minutes and only firing the shot when absolutely comfortable, with ideal wind, barrel cool, etc.

Enough of the rant though.

The vices and racks and crap are good (I suppose) for load testing, but a well built rifle will 1 hole all day long. So, develop good shooting form and technique (grip, stance, trigger control, etc.). Then, take it to the range. 10/22's are great for this. You can work out any issues or try new techniques and then move over to the bigger bullets after you've got them worked out.

Hope that helps.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
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