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Posted: 3/8/2006 10:31:42 PM EDT
I didn't want to hijack another thread about twist to ask this question... 'cuz twist vs. length and accuracy don't change from 14.5 to 16 or 24 for that matter.

So, what is the motive for 14.5 w/ fixed FS?

You lose velocity. You lose FS flexibility. For what? ... 1 inch more door-jam clearance in close quarters or that 1.5" of barrel weight? Isn't the overall difference from a 16" barrel about 1" or less?

There are so many 14.5 FFS around, that there must be a good reason.


And before someone says, "because they can, and they want to."... I already know that.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:45:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 10:46:33 PM EDT by gunnut003]

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:

"because they can, and they want to."...





Well, I want to make an as short as possible AR with lightest, simplest configuration...with most effective barrel velocity.....


I also dont like how a 16in barrel looks past the FSB ON THE CAR Gas System...Its too long [shrugs]

CAR stock
SLABSIDE UPPER
A1 grip
14.5 IN barrel with FFS

ETA: gotta be able to stab the ZOMBIES too...
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:48:08 PM EDT
"Authenticity" (14.5" barrel, just like the military.. then a permanently attached 1.5" flash suppressor... just like... the military?)

Bayonet-attachment ability.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:56:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunnut003:
I also dont like how a 16in barrel looks past the FSB ON THE CAR Gas System...Its too long [shrugs]



I agree. I ordered 2 BCM 16" Uppers with front flip up BUIS and the extended FF rail to balance the look and give more room on a crowded carbine rail.



Bayonet-attachment ability.


True.


OK, that's a few good reasons.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:19:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
"Authenticity" (14.5" barrel, just like the military.. then a permanently attached 1.5" flash suppressor... just like... the military?)

Bayonet-attachment ability.



Actually, the military M4 comes just shy of 16" total by about .2" because they use A2 FS. That's why you're starting to see these 14.7" barrels with A2 FS perm attached. It's got the closest legal look.

I like the M4 barrel length. Nothing wrong with it.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:10:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 1:10:54 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
I didn't want to hijack another thread about twist to ask this question... 'cuz twist vs. length and accuracy don't change from 14.5 to 16 or 24 for that matter.

So, what is the motive for 14.5 w/ fixed FS?

You lose velocity. You lose FS flexibility. For what? ... 1 inch more door-jam clearance in close quarters or that 1.5" of barrel weight? Isn't the overall difference from a 16" barrel about 1" or less?

There are so many 14.5 FFS around, that there must be a good reason.


And before someone says, "because they can, and they want to."... I already know that.



People who want the shortest legal length go with the 14.5" plus flash hider. The difference in length is 1.5" not 1" or less because the people who would use a Phantom or Vortex on a 14.5" would also use it on a 16" barrel. The difference in 14.7" and 16" barrels using A2 flash hiders is 1.3" also not less than 1" and the velocity lost is all but meaningless. I finally decided to go down to 11.5" and pay the $200 because the 14.5" velocity gain was also pretty meaningless for my uses. Most people dont care if they can swap flash hiders once they install a Phantom or Vortex... I mean what are they going to swap it for? They already have the best available on there so no need to change it.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:06:57 AM EDT
I agree with DevL. If you want to use a phantom or vortex, you're going to add 1.5" to your 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:39:14 AM EDT
14.5" + perm phantom for me. It's handier and it looks better, as others have pointed out. Just make sure that you've got everything you want before you perm attach the FS.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:42:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WilsonCQB1911:
Just make sure that you've got everything you want before you perm attach the FS.



Even then, it's not that hard to pull a pinned fs...

and with so many FF tubes that don't require pulling the FSB, you probably
would never need to anyway.

That said, I have both!
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:46:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
I didn't want to hijack another thread about twist to ask this question... 'cuz twist vs. length and accuracy don't change from 14.5 to 16 or 24 for that matter.

So, what is the motive for 14.5 w/ fixed FS?

You lose velocity. You lose FS flexibility. For what? ... 1 inch more door-jam clearance in close quarters or that 1.5" of barrel weight? Isn't the overall difference from a 16" barrel about 1" or less?

There are so many 14.5 FFS around, that there must be a good reason.


And before someone says, "because they can, and they want to."... I already know that.



People who want the shortest legal length go with the 14.5" plus flash hider. The difference in length is 1.5" not 1" or less because the people who would use a Phantom or Vortex on a 14.5" would also use it on a 16" barrel. The difference in 14.7" and 16" barrels using A2 flash hiders is 1.3" also not less than 1" and the velocity lost is all but meaningless. I finally decided to go down to 11.5" and pay the $200 because the 14.5" velocity gain was also pretty meaningless for my uses. Most people dont care if they can swap flash hiders once they install a Phantom or Vortex... I mean what are they going to swap it for? They already have the best available on there so no need to change it.



To install free floats :) Doesn't it have to be removed?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:50:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 4:55:05 AM EDT by oneshot1kill]
Because my govt doesn't want me to have a barrel less than 16" on my rifle.

As a former Marine I like my weapons as close to issue as I can get them. If you want an M4 upper close to milspec then you have to use a permanent FS unless you want to SBR it.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:58:55 AM EDT
My LMT 14.5'' w/Vortex clocks Black Hills 75gr OTM & 75gr Hornady TAP @ 2530 fps &2550 fps respectivly. My Colt 6920 and my Mid-length "Operator" barrel clock a little less for both, about 30 fps. So, same Velocity as a 16',lighter and more portable........YMMV. P.S. ALWAYS crono your loads.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 5:53:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 5:54:48 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:20:05 AM EDT
I'm replacing my 16" barrel with a 14.7 with perm A2. Here are my reasons:

- The new barrel is chome lined the old is not
- I got the barrel on the EE for less than a mid length would have cost
- The 16" barrel looks wrong. It's too long.
- This barrel will be 1.3 inches shorter. So it will be just a little bit better for home defense.

My next upper or rifle will be either a 9mm (to use up all this ammo I have). Or a 16" midlength.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:00:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:02:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
To install free floats :) Doesn't it have to be removed?



Not if you use a Troy, Sampson, or SIR; and I'll bet there are one or two others I missed.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:05:41 AM EDT
I would never own a permanently attached muzzle device. 16" plus an A2 is fine by me. I cant understand getting hung up over the "look" of the extra 1.5" of barrel.

But to each their own.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:05:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 7:06:12 AM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:13:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Vltor is the probably the easiest FF rail, it requires nothing but handguard removal, and is priced inline with other top end rails.



See I knew I missed one. The SIR-C series likewise simple but I'll bet more costly.

I have both 16"+A2 and 14.5"+Vortex/Phantom carbines. While my 16" is lighter (love that LW profile) my 14.5" M4s do everything I need, have better flash supression, and fit in smaller 'low profile cases' (guitar case/16" vs tennis racket bag/14.5").

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:26:06 AM EDT
what is the mean velocity of m855 ball out of a 11.5 bbl?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:26:51 AM EDT
Even if its only 1", I want to have my carbine as short as possible without stepping into NFA. I have the 20" for other purposes.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:51:45 AM EDT
because they are just so darn cool .no other reason
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:56:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stormwalker:
what is the mean velocity of m855 ball out of a 11.5 bbl?


2738 fps
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:59:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
To install free floats :) Doesn't it have to be removed?



Not if you use a Troy, Sampson, or SIR; and I'll bet there are one or two others I missed.



KAC RAS II
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:16:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 8:17:46 AM EDT by Onslaught]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I would never own a permanently attached muzzle device. 16" plus an A2 is fine by me. I cant understand getting hung up over the "look" of the extra 1.5" of barrel.

But to each their own.


If I only had one AR, it would be a 16" mid-length...

BUT, since I don't own just one, and I like variety, I don't mind if one or two have a perm. phantom on them...

I also can't stand the look of a 16" barrel with carbine gas system. The M4 barrel does a little to mask the "fishing pole" look, but a standard CAR or worse, a skinny bbl just looks very odd (to me) hanging out there like that. I just bought a CMMG 14.5" mid to have even LESS barrel sticking out the end.

I will admit though that I do own a Bushmaster superlight 16" that won't get shortened simply because it is for my wife and kids to shoot. As light weight as possible with a little less muzzle blast than the 14.5" (I can't tell the difference, but my son apparently could when he was younger). Function over form in this case.

SO again, nothing wrong with 16" barrels, but when I want a 16" for me, I always choose a mid-length.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:22:07 AM EDT
so my bayonet fits right
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:47:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 8:51:43 AM EDT by Ne1]
The real question is, why would you want a 16" M4 when you can have a midlength with a longer sight radius, longer gas system, longer handguards and a bayonet lug that actually works. With the 16" M4 and A2 flashhider, you are already over 17" and forget about it if you add a phantom or vortex. You might as well get the middy, dissy or a 20". What you end up with is a long carbine with a barrel length that doesn't look right, a bayo lug that doesn't work, relatively small handguards for the barrel length, short sight radius and a short gas system. For what? To gain minimal velocity and the ability to switch the FH? Big deal. You're better of with a 14.5" M4 with perm FH or a 16" middy, IMHO.

Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:55:54 AM EDT
14.5" carbines are very mobile and compact. I think such a carbine has it's place. So does a 16" midlength.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:56:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ne1:
The real question is, why would you want a 16" M4 when you can have a midlength with a longer sight radius, longer gas system, longer handguards and a bayonet lug that actually works. With the 16" M4 and A2 flashhider, you are already over 17" and forget about it if you add a phantom or vortex. You might as well get the middy, dissy or a 20". What you end up with is a long carbine with a barrel length that doesn't look right, a bayo lug that doesn't work, relatively small handguards for the barrel length, short sight radius and a short gas system. For what? To gain minimal velocity and the ability to switch the FH? Big deal. You're better of with a 14.5" M4 with perm FH or a 16" middy, IMHO.

Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO.



+14.7

That sums my feelings exactly.
16" with M4 handguards is just wrong.
16" barrels are awesome, in a midlength system.

I like the idea that I'm "sticking it" to the government by having a legal sub-16" barrel.

I already have a 20" for longer shots.
My next purchase will be a 16" midlength.

M4 carbines with 14.5 (or 14.7") barrels just look sexy, which, let's admit it, is 99% of the reason we have ARs in the first place. Chicks dig them.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:01:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 9:06:54 AM EDT by jwise]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
so my bayonet fits right



YUP! My thoughts exactly!

My first AR was during the ban, and was a 14.5" Bushmaster with perm attached AK brake. I wanted to put a FF forearm on it, but I couldn't take the flash hider off without cutting the barrel. I was upset. I sold it, and bought a M4 profile 16" + A2 flash hider. I like it. I bought a HBAR 16" + A2, and put a FF forearm on it. I like it, too. I then bought a 20" gov't profile so I can mount my bayonet (I bought it before I knew it wouldn't fit on the 16".) Then I bought another M4 profile 16" + A2, just because I can!

Finally, for my current rifle project, I am going back to 14.5" with permanently attached Phantom. It will have a free float rail installed BEFORE the flash hider is permanently attached. Since I've already got four, I figure I can have a little variety and get a 14.5". It's already going to have the rail, and the Phantom is a great flash hider.

Basically I just wanted one that was as short as I could get it, with the benefit of being able to attach my USMC bayonet.

If I ever move to a city/county that will sign off on my Form 4, I'll SBR one of the 16" barrels down to 11.5".

If I were to lose them all, and have to replace them. I'd get the following: 16" M4, 16" middy. 20" gov't, THEN a 14.5" w/ perm FH. (in that order)
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:05:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ne1:
Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO.



You mean like the threaded barrel?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:20:54 AM EDT
M4 almost is 16inch

16inch plus Cage makes a Rifle not a carbine TO ME!!


I bought the LMT 14.5 and did my own brake

I wanted 1/7twist

and a lite barrel!

If I could of found a 14.5 L.W. I would of bought it cause I dont much like the M4 looks
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:27:53 AM EDT
My money and my gun. I dont need a reason.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:31:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 9:47:57 AM EDT by Ne1]

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By Ne1:
Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO.



You mean like the threaded barrel?



I knew I would get that question. Threaded barrels are not banned in NY and weren't under the federal AWB either. You can have a threaded barrel as long as there is no known flashhider that will fit the thread size. Threaded barrels that can accomodate a flashhider are banned on post ban guns and my phantom flashhider is threaded on and accomodated on my preban, believe me.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:45:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ne1:

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By Ne1:
Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO.



You mean like the threaded barrel?



I knew I would get that question. Threaded barrels are not banned in NY and weren't under the federal AWB either. You can have a threaded barrel as long as there is no known flashhider that will fit the thread size. Threaded barrels that can accomodate a flashhider are banned on post ban guns and my phantom flashhider is threaded on and accomodated on my preban, believe me.



Besides, you ARE using the threads if you have a Flash Supressor on your barrel, regardless of whether it can be removed or not. The original intention on the banning and threads being a no-no was to make it very hard to add a FS. You have one and have therefore "stuck it to 'em" anyway.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:53:54 AM EDT
I would never do it. I own 10.5 inch, 11.5 inch, 14.5 inch, 16 inch, 18.5 inch, and 20 inch.

If I did not want to do NFA or could not, I would happily use 16 inch and consider the extra velocity a good thing.

I hate something perm attached because:

1. It is lame.
2. It is hard to service the gas system.
3. You can't play with other flash hiders.
4. It is lame.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:05:44 AM EDT
Bayonet attachment.

My next AR after my middy project will be an M4 clone, and I will do the pinned Phantom.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:38:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
I would never do it. I own 10.5 inch, 11.5 inch, 14.5 inch, 16 inch, 18.5 inch, and 20 inch.

If I did not want to do NFA or could not, I would happily use 16 inch and consider the extra velocity a good thing.

I hate something perm attached because:

1. It is lame.
2. It is hard to service the gas system.
3. You can't play with other flash hiders.
4. It is lame.



Bingo.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:42:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
I would never do it. I own 10.5 inch, 11.5 inch, 14.5 inch, 16 inch, 18.5 inch, and 20 inch.

If I did not want to do NFA or could not, I would happily use 16 inch and consider the extra velocity a good thing.

I hate something perm attached because:

1. It is lame.
2. It is hard to service the gas system.
3. You can't play with other flash hiders.
4. It is lame.



Bingo.



I don't build my AR's to play with, I build them to shoot with!

If I want to try another flash hider out, I have other barrels for that...or...I'll build another AR
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:38:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:40:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
How often do you "service the gas system", and why?



lol....hey - you......get that common sense logic outta here!!!
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:50:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
How often do you "service the gas system", and why?



lol....hey - you......get that common sense logic outta here!!!



Why not stick to comments that contribute to discussion?

I take (and feel) that servicing the gas system, means removal of the FSB. Potentionally to add/remove gas blocks, FF railed tubes, change barrels, etc.

I do this on a fairly regular basis.

Like I said - to each their own. This will fall into personal preferences and ownership/shooting styles, as much as color, ammo, and other misc gear choices.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:54:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
How often do you "service the gas system", and why?



lol....hey - you......get that common sense logic outta here!!!



Why not stick to comments that contribute to discussion?

I take (and feel) that servicing the gas system, means removal of the FSB. Potentionally to add/remove gas blocks, FF railed tubes, change barrels, etc.

I do this on a fairly regular basis.

Like I said - to each their own. This will fall into personal preferences and ownership/shooting styles, as much as color, ammo, and other misc gear choices.




Fair enough. If rippin' apart gas systems is your thing, it's your thing.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:56:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 12:56:30 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:56:19 PM EDT
So when does the fashion show/bayonet practice start?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:08:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 1:11:27 PM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
While a perm FS creates issues, with a little bit of thought befor eyou purchase one, I don't see the issues that there were a few years ago....



Yep - I'd agree with that.

I help people install equipment almost weekly in my garage. The most common thing I install for the locals is either a YHM or LaRue rail system. One thing I always have to ask - "do you have a permanent muzzle device?" If they do... I wont touch it. Too much risk on some other guys weapon. Typically, however, if someone has done their research - they already know about the problem, and we go the Troy/Sampson route.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:24:58 PM EDT
Byonette

Shortest non NFA barrel.

THe 16" looks goofy.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:36:55 PM EDT
I agree that 16 inch looks wrong with short handguards.

It does NOT look wrong with a mid-length rail. It looks super awesome with the right rail and a low-profile gas block.

And I would do that option before improperly fixing a flash hider to my barrel.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:54:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
I would never do it. I own 10.5 inch, 11.5 inch, 14.5 inch, 16 inch, 18.5 inch, and 20 inch.

If I did not want to do NFA or could not, I would happily use 16 inch and consider the extra velocity a good thing.

I hate something perm attached because:

1. It is lame.
2. It is hard to service the gas system.
3. You can't play with other flash hiders.
4. It is lame.


And a lame post.


Unofficial ARFcom answer; "Get Both", or "All"
-1 14.7" w/perm. A2
-2 14.5" w/perm Phantoms
-1 16" with a 3" muzzle device, for a 19"
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:32:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Everybody has their own personal tastes and reasons for wanting whatever barrel length they choose.

What may be "perfect" for one guy, might seem unacceptable to the next guy.

I take barrel orders for all kinds of barrels, and each customer has their own set of reasons for having that barrel.

Just because I personally like a 16", and somebody else wants a 14.5" or 11.5", doesn't make either of us "wrong". It's just what we like for our purposes.

However, I would like to point out one very important thing.
Most modern design weapons are now coming with interchangeable barrel systems, and this is true with the SCAR, the Robarms, the MGI, the LMT, etc.
This changes the previous "school of thought" that you have to be stuck with one barrel length, twist, and profile, or even caliber, like used to be the case with the "old school" stuff.
Things are advancing, and there are systems that can be put onto an AR15 that allows these advanced features.
Don't get "stuck in a rut", just because you might be used to the "same old way" of doing things on the AR15.
I have several different kinds of barrels that I can swap in-and-out of my AR15 in just a few seconds, and I don't feel limited about barrel length decisions at all.



Just curious about this. For the situations where someone would want a 20" over a 14.5" or 16", I'm assuming it's for longer range work. How well do these quick change barrel assemblies hold zero as they are swapped out? I can't believe FSBs, which are attached to the barrel, would always return to zero, and for that matter, even if you had an optic mounted on a flattop, you'd still have the situation where the barrel doesn't re-install perfectly, especially from barrel to barrel. Is it possible to establish a zero that works across two or three barrels?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:40:01 AM EDT
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