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Posted: 3/8/2006 10:45:26 PM EDT
[#1]
 Well, I want to make an as short as possible AR with lightest, simplest configuration...with most effective barrel velocity..... I also dont like how a 16in barrel looks past the FSB ON THE CAR Gas System  ...Its too long [shrugs]CAR stock SLABSIDE UPPER A1 grip 14.5 IN barrel with FFS  ETA: gotta be able to stab the ZOMBIES too... 
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Posted: 3/8/2006 10:48:08 PM EDT
[#2]
"Authenticity" (14.5" barrel, just like the military.. then a permanently attached 1.5" flash suppressor... just like... the military?)
Bayonet-attachment ability. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 10:56:55 PM EDT
[#3]
I agree. I ordered 2 BCM 16" Uppers with front flip up BUIS and the extended FF rail to balance the look and give more room on a crowded carbine rail.
True. OK, that's a few good reasons. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 11:19:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Actually, the military M4 comes just shy of 16" total by about .2" because they use A2 FS. That's why you're starting to see these 14.7" barrels with A2 FS perm attached. It's got the closest legal look. I like the M4 barrel length. Nothing wrong with it. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:10:38 AM EDT
[#5]
People who want the shortest legal length go with the 14.5" plus flash hider. The difference in length is 1.5" not 1" or less because the people who would use a Phantom or Vortex on a 14.5" would also use it on a 16" barrel. The difference in 14.7" and 16" barrels using A2 flash hiders is 1.3" also not less than 1" and the velocity lost is all but meaningless. I finally decided to go down to 11.5" and pay the $200 because the 14.5" velocity gain was also pretty meaningless for my uses. Most people dont care if they can swap flash hiders once they install a Phantom or Vortex... I mean what are they going to swap it for? They already have the best available on there so no need to change it. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 2:06:57 AM EDT
[#6]
I agree with DevL. If you want to use a phantom or vortex, you're going to add 1.5" to your 16" barrel.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 2:39:14 AM EDT
[#7]
14.5" + perm phantom for me. It's handier and it looks better, as others have pointed out. Just make sure that you've got everything you want before you perm attach the FS.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 2:42:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Even then, it's not that hard to pull a pinned fs... and with so many FF tubes that don't require pulling the FSB, you probably would never need to anyway. That said, I have both!
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Posted: 3/9/2006 4:46:02 AM EDT
[#9]
To install free floats :) Doesn't it have to be removed? |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 4:50:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Because my govt doesn't want me to have a barrel less than 16" on my rifle.
As a former Marine I like my weapons as close to issue as I can get them. If you want an M4 upper close to milspec then you have to use a permanent FS unless you want to SBR it. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 4:58:55 AM EDT
[#11]
My LMT 14.5'' w/Vortex clocks Black Hills 75gr OTM & 75gr Hornady TAP @ 2530 fps &2550 fps respectivly. My Colt 6920 and my Mid-length "Operator" barrel clock a little less for both, about 30 fps. So, same Velocity as a 16',lighter and more portable........YMMV. P.S. ALWAYS crono your loads.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 5:53:22 AM EDT
[#12]
Everybody has their own personal tastes and reasons for wanting whatever barrel length they choose.
What may be "perfect" for one guy, might seem unacceptable to the next guy. I take barrel orders for all kinds of barrels, and each customer has their own set of reasons for having that barrel. Just because I personally like a 16", and somebody else wants a 14.5" or 11.5", doesn't make either of us "wrong". It's just what we like for our purposes. However, I would like to point out one very important thing. Most modern design weapons are now coming with interchangeable barrel systems, and this is true with the SCAR, the Robarms, the MGI, the LMT, etc. This changes the previous "school of thought" that you have to be stuck with one barrel length, twist, and profile, or even caliber, like used to be the case with the "old school" stuff. Things are advancing, and there are systems that can be put onto an AR15 that allows these advanced features. Don't get "stuck in a rut", just because you might be used to the "same old way" of doing things on the AR15. I have several different kinds of barrels that I can swap in-and-out of my AR15 in just a few seconds, and I don't feel limited about barrel length decisions at all. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 6:20:05 AM EDT
[#13]
I'm replacing my 16" barrel with a 14.7 with perm A2. Here are my reasons:
- The new barrel is chome lined the old is not - I got the barrel on the EE for less than a mid length would have cost - The 16" barrel looks wrong. It's too long. - This barrel will be 1.3 inches shorter. So it will be just a little bit better for home defense. My next upper or rifle will be either a 9mm (to use up all this ammo I have). Or a 16" midlength. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:00:17 AM EDT
[#14]
It depends on the rail, there are plenty that do, but plenty that don't. The Samson 2 piece drop in FF rail is a great example of a quality rail that does not require removal of the FSB. However, it does require that you cut the Delta ring off, which is all of about a 2 minute job. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:02:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Not if you use a Troy, Sampson, or SIR; and I'll bet there are one or two others I missed. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:05:41 AM EDT
[#16]
I would never own a permanently attached muzzle device. 16" plus an A2 is fine by me. I cant understand getting hung up over the "look" of the extra 1.5" of barrel.
But to each their own. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:05:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Vltor is the probably the easiest FF rail, it requires nothing but handguard removal, and is priced inline with other top end rails. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:13:11 AM EDT
[#18]
See I knew I missed one. The SIR-C series likewise simple but I'll bet more costly. I have both 16"+A2 and 14.5"+Vortex/Phantom carbines. While my 16" is lighter (love that LW profile) my 14.5" M4s do everything I need, have better flash supression, and fit in smaller 'low profile cases' (guitar case/16" vs tennis racket bag/14.5"). |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:26:06 AM EDT
[#19]
what is the mean velocity of m855 ball out of a 11.5 bbl?
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:26:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Even if its only 1", I want to have my carbine as short as possible without stepping into NFA. I have the 20" for other purposes.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:51:45 AM EDT
[#21]
because they are just so darn cool .no other reason
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:56:28 AM EDT
[#22]
2738 fps |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:59:46 AM EDT
[#23]
KAC RAS II |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:16:34 AM EDT
[#24]
If I only had one AR, it would be a 16" mid-length... BUT, since I don't own just one, and I like variety, I don't mind if one or two have a perm. phantom on them... I also can't stand the look of a 16" barrel with carbine gas system. The M4 barrel does a little to mask the "fishing pole" look, but a standard CAR or worse, a skinny bbl just looks very odd (to me) hanging out there like that. I just bought a CMMG 14.5" mid to have even LESS barrel sticking out the end. I will admit though that I do own a Bushmaster superlight 16" that won't get shortened simply because it is for my wife and kids to shoot. As light weight as possible with a little less muzzle blast than the 14.5" (I can't tell the difference, but my son apparently could when he was younger). Function over form in this case. SO again, nothing wrong with 16" barrels, but when I want a 16" for me, I always choose a mid-length. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:22:07 AM EDT
[#25]
so my bayonet fits right
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:47:56 AM EDT
[#26]
The real question is, why would you want a 16" M4 when you can have a midlength with a longer sight radius, longer gas system, longer handguards and a bayonet lug that actually works. With the 16" M4 and A2 flashhider, you are already over 17" and forget about it if you add a phantom or vortex. You might as well get the middy, dissy or a 20". What you end up with is a long carbine with a barrel length that doesn't look right, a bayo lug that doesn't work, relatively small handguards for the barrel length, short sight radius and a short gas system. For what? To gain minimal velocity and the ability to switch the FH? Big deal. You're better of with a 14.5" M4 with perm FH or a 16" middy, IMHO.
Also, since I'm in NY, if I'm going to pay the preban price, ALL of the evil features better work. That's another reason I went with the 14.5". Not that I will ever need or use a bayo, it's nice knowing that I can, if I want to. There is no point of having a banned feature that doesn't even work, IMO. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:55:54 AM EDT
[#27]
14.5" carbines are very mobile and compact. I think such a carbine has it's place. So does a 16" midlength.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:56:29 AM EDT
[#28]
+14.7 That sums my feelings exactly. 16" with M4 handguards is just wrong. 16" barrels are awesome, in a midlength system. I like the idea that I'm "sticking it" to the government by having a legal sub-16" barrel. I already have a 20" for longer shots. My next purchase will be a 16" midlength. M4 carbines with 14.5 (or 14.7") barrels just look sexy, which, let's admit it, is 99% of the reason we have ARs in the first place. Chicks dig them. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:01:41 AM EDT
[#29]
YUP! My thoughts exactly! My first AR was during the ban, and was a 14.5" Bushmaster with perm attached AK brake. I wanted to put a FF forearm on it, but I couldn't take the flash hider off without cutting the barrel. I was upset. I sold it, and bought a M4 profile 16" + A2 flash hider. I like it. I bought a HBAR 16" + A2, and put a FF forearm on it. I like it, too. I then bought a 20" gov't profile so I can mount my bayonet (I bought it before I knew it wouldn't fit on the 16".) Then I bought another M4 profile 16" + A2, just because I can! Finally, for my current rifle project, I am going back to 14.5" with permanently attached Phantom. It will have a free float rail installed BEFORE the flash hider is permanently attached. Since I've already got four, I figure I can have a little variety and get a 14.5". It's already going to have the rail, and the Phantom is a great flash hider. Basically I just wanted one that was as short as I could get it, with the benefit of being able to attach my USMC bayonet. If I ever move to a city/county that will sign off on my Form 4, I'll SBR one of the 16" barrels down to 11.5". If I were to lose them all, and have to replace them. I'd get the following: 16" M4, 16" middy. 20" gov't, THEN a 14.5" w/ perm FH. (in that order) |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:05:13 AM EDT
[#30]
You mean like the threaded barrel?
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:20:54 AM EDT
[#31]
M4 almost is 16inch
16inch plus Cage makes a Rifle not a carbine TO ME!! I bought the LMT 14.5 and did my own brake  I wanted 1/7twist and a lite barrel! If I could of found a 14.5 L.W. I would of bought it cause I dont much like the M4 looks |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:27:53 AM EDT
[#32]
My money and my gun. I dont need a reason.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:31:24 AM EDT
[#33]
I knew I would get that question. Threaded barrels are not banned in NY and weren't under the federal AWB either. You can have a threaded barrel as long as there is no known flashhider that will fit the thread size. Threaded barrels that can accomodate a flashhider are banned on post ban guns and my phantom flashhider is threaded on and accomodated on my preban, believe me.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 10:45:32 AM EDT
[#34]
Besides, you ARE using the threads if you have a Flash Supressor on your barrel, regardless of whether it can be removed or not. The original intention on the banning and threads being a no-no was to make it very hard to add a FS. You have one and have therefore "stuck it to 'em" anyway.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 10:53:54 AM EDT
[#35]
I would never do it. I own 10.5 inch, 11.5 inch, 14.5 inch, 16 inch, 18.5 inch, and 20 inch.
If I did not want to do NFA or could not, I would happily use 16 inch and consider the extra velocity a good thing. I hate something perm attached because: 1. It is lame. 2. It is hard to service the gas system. 3. You can't play with other flash hiders. 4. It is lame. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 11:05:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Bayonet attachment.
My next AR after my middy project will be an M4 clone, and I will do the pinned Phantom. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 11:38:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Bingo.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 11:42:39 AM EDT
[#38]
I don't build my AR's to play with, I build them to shoot with! If I want to try another flash hider out, I have other barrels for that...or...I'll build another AR
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:38:38 PM EDT
[#39]
How often do you "service the gas system", and why?
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:40:57 PM EDT
[#40]
lol....hey - you......get that common sense logic outta here!!! 
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:50:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Why not stick to comments that contribute to discussion?  I take (and feel) that servicing the gas system, means removal of the FSB. Potentionally to add/remove gas blocks, FF railed tubes, change barrels, etc. I do this on a fairly regular basis. Like I said - to each their own. This will fall into personal preferences and ownership/shooting styles, as much as color, ammo, and other misc gear choices. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:54:31 PM EDT
[#42]
Fair enough. If rippin' apart gas systems is your thing, it's your thing. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:56:00 PM EDT
[#43]
No insult was intended, and when people start talking about servicing the gas system, half of them are talking about cleaning it.
With the advent of 2 piece FF tubes, there are plenty of options that allow for decent rail systems, though they aren't as cheap as some of the entry FF models. The gas block has never been something I've needed to swap out very often, but obviously its something that would need to be considered if this is something you feel you may need to do, especially if you aren't using a 2 piece. Changing barrels has never been a problem with a perm/ FS. As you can see, I'm asking the question and staying on topic. While a perm FS creates issues, with a little bit of thought befor eyou purchase one, I don't see the issues that there were a few years ago.... |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 12:56:19 PM EDT
[#44]
So when does the fashion show/bayonet practice start?
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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:08:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Yep - I'd agree with that. I help people install equipment almost weekly in my garage. The most common thing I install for the locals is either a YHM or LaRue rail system. One thing I always have to ask - "do you have a permanent muzzle device?" If they do... I wont touch it. Too much risk on some other guys weapon. Typically, however, if someone has done their research - they already know about the problem, and we go the Troy/Sampson route. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:24:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Byonette
Shortest non NFA barrel. THe 16" looks goofy. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:36:55 PM EDT
[#47]
I agree that 16 inch looks wrong with short handguards.
It does NOT look wrong with a mid-length rail. It looks super awesome with the right rail and a low-profile gas block. And I would do that option before improperly fixing a flash hider to my barrel. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 7:54:44 AM EDT
[#48]
And a lame post.  Unofficial ARFcom answer; "Get Both", or "All" -1 14.7" w/perm. A2 -2 14.5" w/perm Phantoms -1 16" with a 3" muzzle device, for a 19"
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Posted: 3/14/2006 8:32:56 AM EDT
[#49]
Just curious about this. For the situations where someone would want a 20" over a 14.5" or 16", I'm assuming it's for longer range work. How well do these quick change barrel assemblies hold zero as they are swapped out? I can't believe FSBs, which are attached to the barrel, would always return to zero, and for that matter, even if you had an optic mounted on a flattop, you'd still have the situation where the barrel doesn't re-install perfectly, especially from barrel to barrel. Is it possible to establish a zero that works across two or three barrels? |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 8:40:01 AM EDT
[#50]
Your the man Hokie....Hahahaha could not have said it better myself. |
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