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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:21:43 AM EDT
[#1]
The rail is no longer contacting the barrel if done properly -- therefore the sight is not contacting the barrel.
The gas block would be on the barrel, thus the sight would be on the gas block and end of the barrel. Which would be worse, IMO. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:31:27 AM EDT
[#2]
How so? When the barrel moves (slightly; heat), so does the sight. If you put the sights on the rail and the barrel moves, you'll have no chance of being even close at long ranges. BoB |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:34:07 AM EDT
[#3]
The whole point of FF is to prevent any pressure applied the the HG through the use of slings, bipods, VG, ect. will not have any effect the barrel. Therefor if you keep your sights on the barrel and upper. There will not be any shift in the sight picture. Now if you put your front sight on a FF tube, the pressure applied will shift the front sight. And when you have inconsistant pressure, you will get inconsistant groupings. Its the same reason you do not mount optics on FF tubes. They will move around with varing pressure. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:35:10 AM EDT
[#4]
...
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:36:10 AM EDT
[#5]
a question that I've often wondered about...
the only reason I can see for doing it would be on a SBR where you lack the barrel space to mount a gas block/front sight... |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:38:25 AM EDT
[#6]
I guess I'm thinking BUIS, not primary sights. If this is about primary sights, then forgive me.  I guess I'm also thinking that if I have swapped to BUIS's then I am not worried about getting sub-MOA groups at 400yds. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:49:04 AM EDT
[#7]
BUIS
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:57:29 AM EDT
[#8]
I think the real deal here is that far too many folks seem to have forgotten what the BU in BUIS is for? They are intended to be used when your primary optic goes down, while each type of BUIS has it ups and downs, all of them are better than nothing.
I say goes down, lets change that to "will not work" -- I have a buddy that runs a range and is well known for inducing equipment issues: one day in the kill house, the group he was running through all had red dots sights, he put about 1600 of those little orange price stickers all over the house and put all of the torso targets in red tshirt. One of the best was a sniper match that had the shooters engage a simple 8" plate at 70 yards from belown a bench seat -- with a lawn sprinkler in the shooter's face, the only guy that got it was the one guy that could go to back up irons on his sniper gun! ETA: crap mongo, that was not there when I started this post! |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:12:57 AM EDT
[#9]
You can tell the guys who have a little experience with the practical use of the BUIS. +1 mongo001 and Gunzilla. SHIVAN, you are forgiven by a great rebound effort and said it perfectly.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:12:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Now I know if one is competing they should have a dedicated rifle, but for those of us who like to have one-size-fits-all, the 'BU' is more about the rear sight. When I shoot at my local high-power matches, I swap out my optic for a real carry handle with A2 sights. So, for me, my front sight is both BU and primary, hence my question. Thanks for all the info! BoB ETA I don't have a railed front sight, I use the good ol' USGI-type front sight. I was just curious about the pics I've seen. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:18:37 AM EDT
[#11]
If you have a good freefloat and a good railed front sight, I doubt you could tell much difference with open sights--from mounting your front sight on the barrel to on the rail
Better sight radius on carbine with 12" FF |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:31:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Yep, I was talking about primary sights. But as you and everyone else have said, most of the time they will just be back ups and there is no real concern if you can split cards at 400 yards. I agree. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:38:31 AM EDT
[#13]
For all your rifles (you personally) that have BUIS, and the optic goes down, what is the worst thing that would happen? Would a terrorist have a better chance of killing you, or would you put that rifle back in it's case and take out a different rifle, finish your day at the range, drive home, and then contact the manufacturer for warranty support? I guess what I'm saying, unless society has broken down and you are shooting people, do the 99% of the of the shooters on the board not serving active duty need BUIS? Or is it just like 14.5" 4150 1:7 chrome lined "Gov't profile" barrels, single point slings, i.e. fashion accessories. Even if you're at a class, wouldn't you just have another rifle? |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:41:33 AM EDT
[#14]
...wouldn't it be a real motherfucker though if you HAD to deploy your weapon, something went wrong and you REALLY needed a sighting system? That would REALLY suck, wouldn't it?  |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:42:51 AM EDT
[#15]
 Hammer. Nail. Head.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:44:55 AM EDT
[#16]
gosh it would. It would also really suck to 1) get hit by a bus 2) a huge hunk of blue ice that fell off an airliner, or 3) a meteorite. Don't you agree? |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:48:19 AM EDT
[#17]
What sucks is having the optic go TU half-way thru a mag, and needing to reach forward and raise that (blazing friggin' hot) gas block mounted front sight...so I heard.
 Paladin |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:50:07 AM EDT
[#18]
 
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:50:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Be prepared and in control of the things you can, leave everything else to the powers that be. The items you list, are fate, God's will, accidents, etc. Having a backup sighting system on a rifle is a minor item that you can control. It's kind of like carrying a concealed weapon. I doubt I will EVER have to shoot another person in my entire life, ever. I still carry a gun, don't you? |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:56:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Thanks Mongo! I was going to mention that. The flip down rail mounted sights are for BACKUP use. Extream precision is not required. The optic is the primary sighting system. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:03:32 AM EDT
[#21]
I don't shoot highpower with back up iron sights. I just need minute of man to 2 or 300 meters.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:03:57 AM EDT
[#22]
That is what I was trying to say too. All your BUIS need to do is be on at 25m/300m and most of the accuracy is in the shooter. I can aim down the side of my barrel and hit a man sided target at 100 yards!!! |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:05:28 AM EDT
[#23]
I'd say getting your EOTech blown off your rifle by an IED would be fate. And by all means, someone in that situation should have a BUIS. Because they are actually deployed. If you're at your local range and your aimpoint runs out of batteries, well that may be fate also, but why not pull out one of the other four rifles (each with it's own BUIS) that you brough? I don't carry a gun, I live in Chicago. I carry a bright flashlight and a (very short) pointy stick. If I need to "deploy" a rifle, it's going to be an M1 Garand. The only things I need to worry about with that rifle are front sight, trigger press, and keeping my thumb attached to my hand during reloads. Is there some reason for this religous war about BUIS? My point is that almost everyone with an AR is a hobbiest, and they bought a BUIS because it's cool. Fuckers are even buying matechs on ebay because that's what their heros use. Which is a motherfucker, because USGIs are actually depolyed and they needed those matechs. They might get their CQO blow off in an IED attach, and then where are they? but somebody has a buis for their trip to the range or some crazy wild ass chance that they need to "deploy" their rilfe and they forgot to change their battery. wooooo. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:20:02 AM EDT
[#24]
I bought BUIS's because I know that primary sighting devices can get fucked up. While I primarily shoot my guns as "toys", the fact remains that they are tools. I'd like my tools to be ready for use if need be. If the need NEVER arises, then so be it. Hell, I even have back-up sights on hunting rifles. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:20:38 AM EDT
[#25]
I've had my primary optic go down and had to switch to BUIS. Sorry, it wasn't a terrorist, it was a felon with a weapon bailing out a back window towards me after he had supposedly shot his girlfriend. I'm not sure what all the drama is about towards a BUIS.  ETA- Even at a class, unless I'm teaching a block of instruction about an optic, I would switch to my BUIS and use it. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:25:21 AM EDT
[#26]
Thats why I keep my FSB intact. No flipping or burnt thumbs   If I had to mount one, Id probably put it on the rail as there is a very limited selection of good gas block folding font sights. PRI, GG&G, YHM (if you are ok with the way it mounts). I wont even list KAC, as those are not very accessable. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:27:03 AM EDT
[#27]
The BUIS on my long range rifles are really not needed, but I shoot with them to challenge myself at times. On my carbines, the BUIS have a real purpose, so that I can continue on in my class/competition/range session if/when the primary optic goes TU. My life isn't dependent on them like some here, though.
Additionally, I don't expect MOA accuracy out of a BUIS, mostly because of my ability, but if the BUIS contributes to the lack of precision, so be it. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:29:01 AM EDT
[#28]
Your still here, so the BUIS worked as expected, and you were able to sight in your target. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:30:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Its almost like that is the point of a BUIS...... its crazy.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 12:45:08 PM EDT
[#30]
It almost sounds like anti-BUIS people are trying to justfy being less prepared! Regardless of what you generally use a rifle for, it may be be called on one day to fight the criminals/zombie hordes/spawn of Feinstein/etc. I've killed with BUIS in war, and I've had a civilian shoot
While that was with a pistol, I'm sure glad I had a decent sighting system. If I had been using my rifle, I know I'd want to be able to place my rounds quickly and accurately, so that I could stop the agressor ASAP, evern if the gun I'm using is normally just a range toy.And to the Chicago guy, I wouldn't sound so proud of my flashlight and pointy stick. We need to fix IL, and fast 
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Posted: 3/9/2006 5:02:48 AM EDT
[#31]
+1 Quoted: And to the Chicago guy, I wouldn't sound so proud of my flashlight and pointy stick. We need to fix IL, and fast +1 |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 6:06:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Why are the BUIS less accurate when compared to the standard mounted sights? Has anyone actually done an accuracy test between the two? I guess by reading this thread that for the common shooter, BUIS are about as useless as the box of extra magazines everyone keeps in their closets.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:08:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Who said the BUIS are inaccurate?
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:15:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Zombies move slow enough that I could probably drop them within 100yds (has to be a head shot remember?) with only a few rounds each. of course I might run out of ammo if I have to use 2-4 rounds per zombie, if I had my BUIS I could get 30 of them per mag...hmmmm. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:19:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Personally, I really don't see the need or utility in a free floated carbine barrel. I would think that by its nature, the kind of actual use a carbine would see means you wouldn't have time to build a position with a sling and get really match level accurate. Furthermore, it's a carbine - it's not a match rifle in any case. Out past 300 yards or so, you should really be using a different rifle anyway.
But as to the BUIS debate, my carbines all have the factory front sight, so I've never had to ponder a front BUIS. I always have a rear BUIS on my carbines, in case the Aimpoint goes south just before the guy coming through my front door who has something more threatening than a sharpened stick gets in. JMHUO. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:36:45 AM EDT
[#36]
I look at it as:
I have rails on all of my guns because I like to use a VFG. My BUISs are a mixture of cut carry handles, flat top mounted rear BUIS, Standard FSB and rail mounted front BUIS. Where I have a rail mounted front BUIS, it's because it's on an SBR and I'm trying to increase the SR. I never really considered the POI change that is possible with a front sight mounted on a FF tube as important. For me, IF I ever need to resort, note "resort" to my BUIS, it would be in a situation where I was looking for Tactical Accuracy. Bomber |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:42:32 AM EDT
[#37]
I don't need a BUIS or a CCW or a SHTF rifle. I know I can rely on the grace of God and the kindness of strangers to get me through any situation.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:45:55 AM EDT
[#38]
The front iron sight, whether it be a primary or a back-up sight, belongs on the barrel.
To move it to the front of the railed handguard is asking for inaccuracy to be introduced to the system. The front of the railed handguard is the location where it will move the most by any influence of pressure on the handguards. And yes, these railed handguards will flex or move with pressure, and that includes all of them. The ONLY purpose for putting the sight on the handguard, is because it is currently the "fashion trend" to have excessively long railed handguards now, for the purported purpose of "not burning your leg when you transition to your sidearm, if you have a single point sling, and you are wearing short pants." OR, because some people think this current "fashion trend" looks cool. In FACT, you are reducing the effectiveness of your front sight system, back-up or not, when you mount it on the rail. If you have to use this sight, then it should be placed so that it can be as effective as possible when you need it. Not so that you can make excuses such as "back-up sights don't need to be really accurate, because they are back-ups". That is one of the silliest lines that I've heard in a long time. Put the sight where it works properly, not where some fashion trend says it looks "uber tactical", but compromises function. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:01:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Talking about the front sight on a free float tube where your hand might cause flex in teh free float tube.
Isnt this the exact same thing that might happen with standard hadnguards and the front sight attached to the barrel? I mean, either way you look at it, in theory you could never have a front sight that isnt affected by some kind flex. Even the monolithic one piece rails have a bit of flex. To sum up what I am saying.... Standard handguards/non free float rail + flex = shift in POI and or POA Free floated rail + flex = shift in POA This is all purely theoretical considering what it would take to flex a free float rail (and yes I have seen that thread). |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:02:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Thats about right on the current fashion trend, but to keep paying the bills the supply has to keep up with the demand. I dont think mounting a BUIS on a rail is a bad thing at all. Remember BU. Yes, it belongs on the barrel, and you will loose consistency to an extent, but a front sight that is a 2 moa off, will still hit the wounded bad guy running at you because your 1:9 barrel wasnt lethal enough, and your MIM throw lever broke and your primary optic fell off. But luckily, you had room on that extended rail to attach a flashlight, which will temporarily blind the attacker. And if you still miss, you have one of those 1/2 pound flash hiders permanantly attached to club the attacker with.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:18:02 AM EDT
[#41]
One word comes to mind, jaded. |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:46:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Too all the guys selling fashion, I'm sure there is full disclosure of these feelings prior to sale of these fashion items.
I still maintain that fly shit is trying to be separated from pepper. Ideally the front sight should be on the barrel and the barrel should be free floated. How much practical accuracy is lost when using a non freefloated handguard? How much accuracy is lost when an iron sight is placed on a free floated handguard? Is the accuracy degradation relevant when shooting XM193 or some other surplas masss produced ammunition? I don't think the concept of BUIS was to have a 100% equally effective redundancy. I don't doubt that that fashion plays a role, but to write it off as completely fashion is not fair either. Personally I find my flip down rail mounted BUIS catches less on things then one of my other guns with a standard FSB. I also think that extending the rail on an SBR allows the sight radius to be increased. I guess by similar arguement, one should put match grade triggers in all their ARs. Bomber |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 9:29:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Yup. I've already paid my $15 and shot $30 worth of ammo. Then my optic goes down and I can't even finish the competition? What a waste of a Saturday. Now I have three AR uppers. One is a "target" rifle with a up to 16x scope. No backups. It's a range gun. I have my competition AR. AR15.com SEBR. So, a 14.5" non-freefloat with fixed front sight. The EOTech is on there. What if my batteries die and I forgot to pack more? What if it breaks?, etc. etc. Troy rear BUIS to co-witness with the front. I'll probably never need it. The last one is an SBR upper. It's a 10.5" barrel. I decided that since I already spent $450 on the lower (reciver, LPK, NFA tax stamp) I'd make a nice upper. So, I wanted a free float 4-rail. Hmmm, 7" or 9"? 9" and ditch the fixed front sight. Slap an EOTech, Troy/Samson sight combo and I'm golden. And, with the longer rail, I now have a longer sight radius. So what's less accurate? A short sight radius or a minimum of barrel shift? Especially for a <200yard SBR. So, here's another thought: - Take a scoped rifle. Scope is on the receiver and the barrel is free-floated. Is it less accurate because the scope isn't mounted on the barrel? |
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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:04:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Hell yes. Or at the very least, two stage triggers. In a perfect world, we'd all have KAC match full auto triggers or similar. |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 8:33:09 PM EDT
[#45]
+2 |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 10:07:51 PM EDT
[#46]
I always see this argument come up when talking about rail lenth. Short or long sight radius and how much better 2-4" longer sight radius is. In my opinion, that is ridiculous. I mean theoretically, yes a longer sight radius will achieve better results. But to use this as a justification for having a longer rail?? I can tell you I have qualified with both the M-16A2 and the M-4 and can't say the sight radius made any difference to me. That was shooting 500 yards with irons. I definately agree with mounting the BU sight on the barrel. For one thing when the barrel shifts so will your FS. My 2.
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Posted: 3/17/2006 11:01:42 PM EDT
[#47]
I bought my Matech on Ebay because that is my way of helping the Jihad, with just the scenario you outlined in mind. Death to the infidels and their CQO! |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 11:10:03 PM EDT
[#48]
1) BUIS on the handguard rail are perfectly okay...as long as we are talking about a Monolithic reciever 2) I have a 12" FF handguard on my 16" barrel so it covers the low profile gas block. In fact I think it looks LESS cool than a fixed front sight, but it's much better protected inside there. |
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Posted: 3/18/2006 4:00:30 AM EDT
[#49]
Monolithic receivers are stiffer than normal ones, but they still flex under handguard pressure, as the recent tech thread by Gunzilla has shown measurments of flex on several types of uppers including monolithic ones.
I realize that it might be small amounts, and considered not critical in a CQB situation. However, small amounts of sight movement will definitely be seen in POI change at 100 yds. Certainly, the position of the sight is one of personal user preference, but it is clear that in a FF handguard arrangement, the best result would be on the barrel. Other positions may be acceptable for the user's intended purpose. |
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Posted: 3/18/2006 4:52:02 AM EDT
[#50]
Thats the place I wanna go! |
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