Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/16/2006 4:55:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 7:32:18 PM EDT by Bushy-Shooter]
Im looking to buy an m4 profile upper. Im wanting the shorter 14.5 with a permanant phantom, but I hear its not as good as a 16 incher, performance wise and accuracy. How true is this? Is it very noticable say at 1 to 6 hundred yards? If you have both your experiance would be helpful.

Thanks Bushy

Added another question below
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:07:47 PM EDT
Permanently attached muzzle devices are a pain in the ass. Go with the 16".
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:09:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
Permanently attached muzzle devices are a pain in the ass. Go with the 16".



+1
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:29:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
Permanently attached muzzle devices are a pain in the ass. Go with the 16".



+2
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:41:24 PM EDT
I have a Bushy 14.5 with a perm. phantom, I like it alot. Looks good and shoots good! I dont have any need to take the phantom off though.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:58:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RPD20:
I have a Bushy 14.5 with a perm. phantom, I like it alot. Looks good and shoots good! I dont have any need to take the phantom off though.



I thought the same thing, until I wanted to put a quality rail on my rifle.

So I bought a new barrel.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:01:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:11:09 PM EDT
get the 16 in

little more velocity and you can change your muzzle device
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:20:12 PM EDT
Get the 16"!!! I bought the 14.5" with the Phantom, and I hate the fact that I can't remove the FS. Worse yet, I bought the 11.5"/5.5" setup before that (before I knew any better). Now I have to put in the paperwork for a SBR or sell the upper.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:15:07 PM EDT
16
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:20:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
get the 16 in

little more velocity and you can change your muzzle device

+1
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:20:51 PM EDT
Accuracy wise there is no difference. Performance wise the 14.5" will have a bit more drift and drop at extended ranges. Terminal Performance wise the 16" will have a longer 'fragmentation envelope' but either is more than sufficient for LEO or civilian defensive use.

If you get a permanently attached muzzle device you'll be limiting yourself to FF units to the SIR, the Troy, the Sampson. All are excellent, just a bit heavier than the units that require removal of the FSB & muzzle device (like the LaRue).

One bonus for the 14.5+FS is it will fit inside some tennis racket cases with the stock collapsed (low-profile transport) the 16"+FS will not fit.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:24:44 PM EDT
16 inch middy
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:25:06 PM EDT
I have two 14 1/2"s with the Izzy and one 16" with the birdcage. If I had to choose just one it would be the 16.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:29:07 PM EDT
I have two 16" carbines, a M4 and a mid-weight contour middy.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:30:42 PM EDT
thanks for all the replys guys, what are your thoughts on barrel twist? I mainly shoot 55 gr Will I be happier sticking with a 1in9 past 100 yds or can the 1in7 handle 55 gr no problem?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:35:16 PM EDT
Either twist will work.

I'm glad your asking here Bushy-Shooter, rather than the dumbasses that hang out over at The Pawn Shop in North Platte, Ne.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:45:27 PM EDT
I'm glad your asking here Bushy-Shooter, rather than the dumbasses that hang out over at The Pawn Shop in North Platte, Ne.


Pawnshop = bad news Sorry for whoever is doing this. To bad some1 could not give them any guidance before this tragedy.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:53:16 PM EDT
You dont have to apologize to me (or for them) Some commando there interupted me trying to buy ammo there this December. He told me I'd be buying a new barrel if I shot 55gr out of my 1/7, also he said that its not 1/7 its 1/7.899. Thats all.

Still either twist will be fine
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:12:34 PM EDT
I may be in the minority here, but I prefer the 14 1/2". So much so, that if it wasn't for the perm. attach loophole, I'd probably pay an extra $200 and go the SBR route. If you are going 16, I'd recommend against an M4 profile from a purely cosmetic viewpoint. I think 16" M4's just don't look right. The M4 should be 14 1/2". My personal preferred profile for a 16" is a lightweight (or pencil) barrel. And on 20" I prefer Govt A2 profile (heavy out front, thin under handguards). I don't really understand people's hangup on not being able to remove the FH. Why anyone feels the need to freefloat a carbine is beyond me. It isn't a sniper rifle afterall. And I find that while the difference in 14 1/2" with a 1/2" longer permanantly attached FH and a 16" with an A2 birdcage is only an inch, it really seems to make a huge difference in the way the carbine handles in close quarters.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:22:54 PM EDT
Oh man, I don't mean to hijack your thread, so I won't.
But I'm sitting here wonderin'
Where's all the "barrel length has no effect on accuracy" crowd.
And any mock up of the M4 should have a 14.5" bbl.

14.5" is worthless? Doubt that.
cc

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:49:37 PM EDT
I have a 14.5" with a permanent phantom and I would do the same thing again
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:14:02 PM EDT
For all of this "Mill Spec" BS, then the 14.5 is MUCH "closer" to Mil Spec. After all if the military uses it...

Bill
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:14:10 PM EDT
Considering that a 14.5 and a 16 is only 1.5 inches apart, it may not seem like a significant enough difference. However, having used both, the 14.5 seems to handle and point better than the 16. In terms of velocity using a chrome lined barrel, they are approximately 80 fps apart. I can live with that. I too at one point got caught up in the whole 16 is better, but I'll take the 14.5. They even make them now with the mid-length gas system.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:23:09 AM EDT
Bushy-Shooter, you shouldn't be looking for opinions, you should be asking for facts. There are advantages and disadvantages between 14.5" and 16" bbls. You need to make a list of these advantages and disadvantages and decide which ones matter to you and which ones don't. Once you have done that, then you will know which one you want to get.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:18:15 AM EDT
I've been mulling over barrels for the past few days.

If I'm doing a M4 coutour barrel with carbine gas system, I'm going 14.5 + a perm attached FS. If I want to go 16" its going to be a mid length gas system, be it mid weight or gov't profile. I have to tools to do the work myself and enjoy it so it doesn't bother me to work on the barrels. I also install the handguard of choice prior to welding the FS on. If you find you need to be able to screw your FS on and off go 16".

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:57:09 AM EDT
I bought the 14.5 LMT I love it and I put a Phantom on it! When the VLTOR retracked it makes a very short carbine!

BTW the LMT 14.5 with bird cage almost makes 16inch

16.1 INCH BARREL PLUS THE BIRD CAGE Makes over 17 inches and kinda takes away what the carbine is, and looks odd wich looks really dont matter! put a mid length on it


I have a 16HBAR

I had KURT to cut it down and add a birdcage so it would be over 16inches



Its up to you if you want ! I had to make the choice as well LMT 14.5
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:14:52 AM EDT
14.7" w/ A2 FTW!
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:42:35 AM EDT
Get both!
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:53:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
14.7" w/ A2 FTW!



+1! I like the A2 flashider, and a 14.7" just looks better than a 16" carbine to me.

The one I am having built will be a standard type carbine with no gadgets. Basically a paper puncher, but I would have no problem using it to defend myself.

I also have a midlength. It will have a bunch of gadgets once I get my 14.7 finished.

Keep in mind your 16" barrel is actually >17 inches with a FH on it...
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:06:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterC:
Get both!



Thats the ARF.com way !!!

I have a 14.5" Bushy and its great for the local 150yd range, and my "farm carbine" for around my house and the farms. Its easy in/ out of the truck and has all of the range one needs. (in my area)

Now having said that I also have a few 16", 11.5"/5.5" and the 20" ers.

If you are not going to add the rail systems then the perm. attached FH is not a problem. And I agree that the M4 profile only looks right on the 14.5".

Good luck,
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:17:19 AM EDT
If you want an M4 profile barrel I would go with the 14.5 because I think the 16" M4 profile barrels look like shit, that is just a looks thing but if you are getting the M4 profile then it is just for looks too right? Unless you are mounting an M203 on it. As for performance, you wont loose any performance that you will notice realy. And my personal opinion is that you dont need any kinda free float tube on a carbine, it aint a sniper rifle and it wount hurt accuracy enough for you too realize it not having a fft.

If I wasnt going to get an M4 profile then I would personaly get a mid length. As for twist rates a 1 in 9 would be fine for 55 grn, I would not worry about a 1 in 7 unless you were going to shoot heavy bullets like 65 and up grain.

Saying all of that, get what YOU want, not what anyone on here tells you to get or you have to have(including me)
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:17:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By L0CK_N_L0AD:

Originally Posted By MisterC:
Get both!



Thats the ARF.com way !!!

I have a 14.5" Bushy and its great for the local 150yd range, and my "farm carbine" for around my house and the farms. Its easy in/ out of the truck and has all of the range one needs. (in my area)

Now having said that I also have a few 16", 11.5"/5.5" and the 20" ers.

If you are not going to add the rail systems then the perm. attached FH is not a problem. And I agree that the M4 profile only looks right on the 14.5".

Good luck,



+2
absolutely

have a barrel or 2 inbound from SKICH right now. SOCOM, M4 14.5". Going to hopefully SBR one some day and going to perm one now with an extended A2 and be happy with it.
Have a 16in "HBAR" on my 6721
and a 20inch on my rifle.

I love them all and dont think there is a clear winner in the "which one is better" debate. Get one or 2 of each of 'em and have a good time....
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 9:17:36 PM EDT
16" = no perm. attached muzzle device.
perm. attached muzzle device = PITA
1.5" times about 50 fps/in = ~75 fps difference (not a player either way)

But if you go 16"you should go middy.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:01:48 AM EDT
16" = no perm. attached muzzle device.
perm. attached muzzle device = PITA


Sorry for my ignorance but,
Whats PITA?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:05:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 8:06:32 AM EDT by jackal2001]
Pain in the Ass

I have been trying to decide myself about either going 14.5 or 16.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:11:53 AM EDT
I too at one point got caught up in the whole 16 is better, but I'll take the 14.5. They even make them now with the mid-length gas system.

Can you tell me more about mid length gas systems on an m4 upper? Who sells these? Any benefits to this?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:38:05 PM EDT
John Noveske and CMMG both sell 14.5-14.7 mid-length gas system barrels, and of course the usual custom barrel makers. There may also be others I am not aware of. The mid-length gas remedies the problems that the carbine gas would have. Be it it's more violent cycling, bolt bounce, higher pressures, recoil, extraction, etc. If you do a search, there are numerous detailed posts on the benefits of the mid-gas from the gurus here.

Again, my choice would be a 14.5 build. Looks better, feels better, handles better. If you think about it, the issue regarding the perm. attached muzzle device is really not a problem or PITA. Just decide on which device you like best and leave it alone. I have 10.5, 14.5's, 16, and 20 inch guns. Not once have I ever taken off any of their muzzle devices.
Top Top