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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - S&W M&P-15... saw two of them today (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:25:26 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The funniest thing is that in the March 2006 issue of Guns and Ammo, the Standard M&P 15 outshot the Tactical M&P 15. Assuming the author used sandbags or some type of rest, you would figure the Standard would have larger groups. Unless of course, Free Floating only prevents the POI shift from the pressure affecting barrel harmonics and that the inherent precision remains the same (grouping capability)?

Go back and see what optics he used on each and that will explain the difference. He did not test them evenly.

I don't recall exactly what he did. I think on one he used the Leupold CQ/T, and the other he used some hunting scope. I still do not see how that would allow the standard to outshoot the Tactical at 100 yd. I can shoot about the same using iron sights or a 4x optic at 100 yd using the same ammo on the same gun. I was expecting to see much tighter groupings because of the FFHG.

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:36:10 PM EDT

[#2]

There was an artical in Guns and Ammo (I think) about the M&P15.

They had a chart with groups with different ammo and the standard was getting tighter groups than the tactical at 100 and 200 yards.

Posted: 2/16/2006 4:37:52 PM EDT

[#3]

DonD is correct, the 15-T used a leupold MK4 C/Q-T 1-4X and the Standard used a Leupold VX-III 6.5-20X scope. The smallest groupes for both rifles were with Cor-Bon. 1.13 for the "T" and 0.75 for the Standard @ 100 yards. As a side note the Standard averaged 4.88 at 440 yards for three five-shot groups. I'll have to leave it up to a long range shooter to say how good or bad this is. I would be happy with it.

Posted: 2/16/2006 5:12:11 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.

www.stagarms.com/cart/images/stag_arms_model1big.gif

It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.

I have yet to see any hard evidence of this. Nobody knows exactly what this rifle is made with or who made the parts. Remember, Smith and Wesson got a massive upgrade in their machining not too long ago... They have made forgings and parts for almost every firearms maker at one time or another. It would suprise me if Smith didn't make a good bit of the parts in house.

Posted: 2/16/2006 7:06:36 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.

www.stagarms.com/cart/images/stag_arms_model1big.gif

It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.

I have yet to see any hard evidence of this. Nobody knows exactly what this rifle is made with or who made the parts. Remember, Smith and Wesson got a massive upgrade in their machining not too long ago... They have made forgings and parts for almost every firearms maker at one time or another. It would suprise me if Smith didn't make a good bit of the parts in house.

Listening to some here, you would think that only an annointed few can figure out how to machine the parts needed for an AR15.

The AR15 is one of the easiest rifles to machine and make. Rocket science they ain't. In fact, the only thing easier to make is a Remington or Savage bolt gun.

I'm pretty sure S&W is more than capable of making most everything on those rifles, and like you, I would not be surprised if they are.

Posted: 2/16/2006 7:30:12 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....

+1

Does anyone have a pic?

Hmmm.... Smith & Wesson, Smith & Wesson. They might have a website.
M&P 15T

I have seen the shitty pic on there web sight. I was hopping for better ones like flyingfive0 pointed out on page four.

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:05:31 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
...In fact, the only thing easier to make is a Remington or Savage bolt gun...

Speaking of that, isnt Remmington making an ar15 style rifle as well? think there was a picture of it in one of these scattered shotshow threads.

I may be wrong.

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:17:04 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

I'm pretty sure S&W is more than capable of making most everything on those rifles, and like you, I would not be surprised if they are.

They are not... it is no secret in the industry who is making what for the gun... the deal is that there are shops setup to make AR receivers in GREAT numbers and they do a great job of it -- a letter of variance to manufacture and you can have them churned out with your companies name on them.

S&W's order numbers for these is not small, but it is not huge either... well within the numbers that would make it cost prohibitive to stop a line, retool, turn out a thousand receivers... then go back to what they were doing -- in many cases it is cheaper to go to a shop that runs these in serious numbers and "manufacture on a letter"

The receivers that I have run are very small numbers and it actually would cost me more to make them myself than to buy them from one of the bigger names... manufacturers "cross lines" with these parts more often than you might think.

The contract for S&W has some room for variation with vendors, to ensure that they will be albe to meet production and availability of small parts and stuff, but the main players are named and the product is rolling... nothing much different than what you have heard so far.

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:26:57 AM EDT

[#9]

I just paid $1165 for my S&W M&P-15 Tactical...that's cheaper for sure than my Bushmaster Modular Carbine.

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:49:58 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I just paid $1165 for my S&W M&P-10 Tactical...that's cheaper for sure than my Bushmaster Modular Carbine.

Is that the M&P 15 Tactical or a new rifle?
$1100-$1200 is about what I'd be paying for my M4 build if I switched to the Troy MRF-CX, and slim gas block. However, that doesn't include the cost of BUIS though (I just have a DCH and the fixed A2 FSB).
I used Forest's weight data spreadsheet and it appears even with the MRF they cut the weight down by using the BUIS instead of the DCH.

Posted: 2/19/2006 9:37:51 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I just paid $1165 for my S&W M&P-10 Tactical...that's cheaper for sure than my Bushmaster Modular Carbine.

Is that the M&P 15 Tactical or a new rifle?
$1100-$1200 is about what I'd be paying for my M4 build if I switched to the Troy MRF-CX, and slim gas block. However, that doesn't include the cost of BUIS though (I just have a DCH and the fixed A2 FSB).
I used Forest's weight data spreadsheet and it appears even with the MRF they cut the weight down by using the BUIS instead of the DCH.

Yes it was for the "Tactical" as stated...the M&P-15T.

Posted: 2/19/2006 9:58:25 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
I just paid $1165 for my S&W M&P-10 Tactical...that's cheaper for sure than my Bushmaster Modular Carbine.

I think he was confused as your first reply mentions the S&W M&P 10. What are your over all impressions, and have you taken it out and fired it yet?

Posted: 2/19/2006 10:37:58 AM EDT

[#13]

Stick was right, I was confused as to whether or not it was the M&P 15T or some new S&W AR-10 clone

.

$1165 is a great price for such a build.

Posted: 2/19/2006 10:56:13 AM EDT

[#14]

Stick said it best. I was hoping someone would interject some facts around these "M&P are tactical dogshit" threads.

Here's what I like best about these, besides all the cool Troy stuff...MIL-SPEC stock. At least it has the characteristic features of a mil-spec stock: solid web around the sling loop, and right angle (as opposed to radius cut) in front of the latch.

I'm very stoked about this, as I am a mil-spec stock snob. I don't know why, but I just am (character flaw I suppose). I hate the out of spec stocks sold by BM, RRA, etc. Rock on S&W for using a real stock.

Posted: 2/19/2006 11:06:43 AM EDT

[#15]

My 2 cents - too much money for what you get - and I'm still not a big fan of S&W. I'd rather buy a good Bushmaster, add those same parts and save a few hundred than buy anything from S&W.

Now, if Springfield were to make an AR; that would be worth writing about.

Posted: 2/19/2006 11:32:01 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
My 2 cents - too much money for what you get - and I'm still not a big fan of S&W. I'd rather buy a good Bushmaster, add those same parts and save a few hundred than buy anything from S&W.

Thats a fair enough comment. Lets think about it for a minute.

A good price on a Bushmaster M4 flattop is around $875.

Lets call the Troy front sight $120, rear sight as $140, and Troy rail at $225, these are rough prices, not anything exact.

That puts your build at $1360, which is certainly more than eringobragh, who paid $1165 for the S&W.

I'm not saying that the S&W is the greatest AR15 in the world, but I am saying that people appear to be getting hung on on MSRP or some other pricing. Its easy to say that you would build it cheaper, and I am a fan of doing that myself, but when you do the math, it doesn't add up.

Posted: 2/19/2006 11:48:09 AM EDT

[#17]

The one thing I don't get is how they managed 6.85lb with the tactical M&P 15.

I just slapped together an M4gery:
16" M4 barrel (Bushmaster Patrolman's carbine)
A1 FS
Flat top upper
CMT bolt carrier group + CH
Hogue pistol grip
M4 6position stock
standard CAR handguards (with 1 layer shields)
standard FCG, standard lower

It came out to 7.04 lb using my scale.
Forest's spreadsheet puts my M4 setup at around 6.5 lb, so something's not quite right.

On the MP 15: The Troy MRF-CX is heavier, but they cut some weight with the BUIS. 6.85 lb is very light for the M&P 15 setup.

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:23:00 PM EDT

[#18]

OOPS! That was clearly a typo on my behalf that I've corrected above! But again yes it's the M&P-15T...don't have it yet as it's being allocated by one of the shop's distributors...should see it this week though. If I can borrow the Father or Sister-in-law's digital camera, I'll post some pics...I hear the finish on these things is really nice. I hope it's indeed true that CMT/STAG are producing these for SMITH, because the finishes I've seen on the STAG's are top notch.

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:38:27 PM EDT

[#19]

Here's a S&W Standard M4 type on Gunbroker. $925

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=43921560

Add your own Rail and Buis's

AnyBody rather pay $1500 for a Colt?

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:47:06 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
And before some smart ass asks, yes, the Troy sights were vertical with no canting. A mil spec recivier keeps them that way.

The Troy issue had nothing to do with receivers.

Posted: 2/19/2006 5:47:40 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
OOPS! That was clearly a typo on my behalf that I've corrected above! But again yes it's the M&P-15T...don't have it yet as it's being allocated by the one of shop's distributors...should see it this week though. If I can borrow the Father or Sister-in-law's digital camera, I'll post some pics...I hear the finish on these things is really nice. I hope it's indeed true that CMT/STAG are producing these for SMITH, because the finishes I've seen on the STAG's are top notch.

We shall see but I don't think your going to get the Tactical for that price as it's considerably under the dealer price. I know that at least one distributor has three S&W M&P models listed, one erroneously an MP15T at the standard price.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think your dealer is getting the rifle he thinks he is.

Posted: 2/19/2006 6:05:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

We shall see but I don't think your going to get the Tactical for that price as it's considerably under the dealer price. I know that at least one distributor has three S&W M&P models listed, one erroneously an MP15T at the standard price.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think your dealer is getting the rifle he thinks he is.

Actually that IS dealer price, and I WORK for the said dealer! Cost on the Tactical seems to run from between $1163 to $1178 from the 8 to 10 distributors that the shop uses. Shelf price I imagine will run around $1250/$1295...give or take a few $$$.

Posted: 2/19/2006 6:37:57 PM EDT

[#23]

i think its a good value for the money, even if it is more than a STAG its worth the extra money not to get the gay deerhead. i hope we see a range report soon.

Posted: 2/19/2006 6:47:03 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
i think its a good value for the money, even if it is more than a STAG its worth the extra money not to get the gay deerhead. i hope we see a range report soon.

The guys at STAG are totally stand-up fellows...really nice folks. I was really impressed with them as people, and their products when I met/saw them at SHOT...nevertheless, it is kind of funky to see a deer head on an AR lower...it's totally cosmetic (the deer head), but it would probably keep me from purchasing one.

Posted: 2/19/2006 7:06:54 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.

www.stagarms.com/cart/images/stag_arms_model1big.gif

It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.

This is exactly why I buy Stag parts, from Stag dealers. I can buy a high quality stripped lower for $94, out the door. I don't need to pay more to have the same.

Posted: 2/19/2006 7:52:10 PM EDT

[#26]

Hey, time will tell, but if they get picked up by the police, they'll bring in the bacon. If it's a good product, there's little doubt many agencies will choose it over Bushmaster or Rock River just on name recognition alone.

Posted: 2/19/2006 8:07:38 PM EDT

[#27]

Saw one at the local fun shop and to me it was nice but nothing special, just another AR15. But it did feel a little lighter than the norm. The one I handled was the standard on not the tactical.

Posted: 2/20/2006 8:37:15 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Stick said it best. I was hoping someone would interject some facts around these "M&P are tactical dogshit" threads.

Here's what I like best about these, besides all the cool Troy stuff...MIL-SPEC stock. At least it has the characteristic features of a mil-spec stock: solid web around the sling loop, and right angle (as opposed to radius cut) in front of the latch.

I'm very stoked about this, as I am a mil-spec stock snob. I don't know why, but I just am (character flaw I suppose). I hate the out of spec stocks sold by BM, RRA, etc. Rock on S&W for using a real stock.

The S&W at the SHOT show did not have the "military type shape" M4 stock. (like pictured in the S&W promo pictures)
They were running a RRA type shaped stock. (I am not sure about the buffer tube dimentions)
I kind of figured they would switch it to the same stock that Stag is offering. Except the stock has the S&W logo.

Posted: 2/20/2006 9:00:41 AM EDT

[#29]

Lets just hope they make them better than the Sigma.

Posted: 2/22/2006 4:24:10 PM EDT

[#30]

Handled one at a pawn shop in belton south carolina 1400.00 for top of the line......just don't know.

Posted: 3/1/2006 4:13:36 PM EDT

[#31]

Received my M&P-15T (Tactical) today! Very nice rifle, but not what I had expected...not in a bad way though, just different in a few areas.

I was under the impression that the bolt carrier and key were hard chromed...they are not. They are chromed LINED. No big deal, just like everyone else's carriers and keys...I can live with that, it was my misunderstanding.

The rail covers are not the Tangodown ones shown in literature and magazines. They are the Yankee Hill type that BUSHMASTER uses on the Modular Carbine, but with a SW logo. Again no big deal, but I'll probably replace them with the Tangos to go with the Tango grip I'll be putting on.

Everything else with the rifle rocks! The TROY mid-length tube is really cool...I've never had a mid-length tube/handguard before, but I think this may be my favorite size now. The TROY flip-up sights are pretty awesome too...the sight picture is wonderful!

After dinner I'll be dropping in a RRA trigger group, BADGER ORD tact latch, MAGPUL trigger guard, and SIERRA grip (until my Tango arrives). I'll try to take some pics and post them later tonight!