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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:41:58 PM EDT
What is the standard issue rifle for the average GI Infantry? Is it the M16A2 or is it the M4A1 Carbine? I see A LOT of M4A1 carbines on the news.

Thanks,
Jim762
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:46:00 PM EDT
In 1980 they gave me TOW launcher and 1911 but no one to shoot at.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:47:35 PM EDT
It depends. I think it goes like this. LCpls and below get A4s, NCO's get M4's, and Staff get anything they want and a pistol...

It really varies by unit, and what their armory has available...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:52:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 4:53:20 PM EDT by Blanco_Diablo]

Originally Posted By chris157c:
It depends. I think it goes like this. LCpls and below get A4s, NCO's get M4's, and Staff get anything they want and a pistol...

It really varies by unit, and what their armory has available...



Are you sure?



I've also seen a few squads with just M4s and then 1 M249 SAW. I guess that'd fall under the "varies by unit and what they have in their armory" though huh?

ETA: I've also wondered about how the weapons are sorted out in the Army. Just the luck of the draw?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:16:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By chris157c:
It depends. I think it goes like this. LCpls and below get A4s, NCO's get M4's, and Staff get anything they want and a pistol...
It really varies by unit, and what their armory has available...


Are you sure?
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/BlancoDiablo/CSA-2006-01-23-10523012.jpg
I've also seen a few squads with just M4s and then 1 M249 SAW. I guess that'd fall under the "varies by unit and what they have in their armory" though huh?
ETA: I've also wondered about how the weapons are sorted out in the Army. Just the luck of the draw?



I guess I should have said I'm a Marine, and not speaking from the experience of Soldiers...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:15:33 PM EDT
It varys by unit. Some units TOE (Table of Equipment) calls for M4 or M4A1 series weapons. Other units call for M16A2 or A4 series weapons. When I was in, the company that I was in was set up as follows.

4 platoons of 3 squads. 4 fireteams to a squad.
fireteam composed of
1 NCO with M4/M203 and M9 or M11 (SIG)
1 Spec4 with M249 and M9 or M11
1-2 Privates (E1, E2, or E3) with M4 and M9 or M11 (depending on platoon strength)
MK19 or M2 on top of the HMMWV (M1025 or M1026 series HMMWV)

Each platoon had a M16A2 with Scope, that was generally carried by the Lieutennants Driver (who was generally the best shot in the platoon).

Our sister company lacked M4's. They were all equipped with M16A2 series rifles, the rest was the same however (M9 or M11's).

Soldiers who were SRT qualified were authorized to carry M11 series pistols, rather than M9 series pistols. One female E5 in 2nd platoon was not physically capable of carrying an M4 with M203, so her weapon was traded with her fireteams privates, so there was a degree of variation within the company.

At the time, we were the only unit on post (except for the Ranger Platoon) that had M4 series rifles. To the effective go the sexy tools of war.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:11:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:11:23 PM EDT by hispeedal2]
Here is what I have seen here in 3-2 SBCT since I've been there:

M4A1s with
-MaTech BUIS (this is the only Army line unit issue BUIS)
-M203
-Carry Handle
-M4 Handguards
-Knight RAS (with accessories- rail panels, VFG)
-PEQ 2/4
-M3X Picatinny Backplate Tac Lights
-Optics are M68, Eotech, TA-31F

M16s with
-Regular Handguards
-Knight RAS (with same accessories as above)
-M3X Picatinny Backplate Tac Lights
-M68s either mounted to the rail system or in a carry handle mount
-PEQ 2/4

Generally Speaking there are more M68s than any other optic. They are all mounted in Aimpoint's rail grabber mount (the one that everyone shuns here and no one has on their "clone" service weapons). The spacer is used when mounted to the rail system or a flattop. The Aimpoint mount holds zero.

Eotechs are the second most common optic. Most Joes love em.

The ACOGs are less, but everyone wants one.

Not too many people put other accessories on their weapons. You may see a few soldier bought SFs or buttstocks. Most units will not allow buttstocks to be changed out though. You may see an occasional bipod. tactical sling vary. Spec Ops Mamba is popular b/c of the availability in the PX. I have seen some RediMags from RFI during the last deployment. I have not seen any other BUIS besides the MaTech.

Note: Some units buy with company funds items that the Army supply system will n ot give them b/c it is not on their MTOE. For example, a large amount of YHM rail systems for M16A2s was bought for the MICO b/c they, at the time, were not allowed any by MTOE. This is how the Eotech became so prevalent in the unit. Those items are few though.

-Hispeedal


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:21:53 PM EDT
as far as army infantry, rifleman have M16A3 or A4, grenadiers have M203s mounted, and automatic rifleman have SAWs or M240Bs. the platoon leader, and sometimes squad leader have M4s. the 1SG and CO have M9s.
only difference is most airborne units, and some light units have M4s instead of M16A3/4s. so your probably seeing those.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:33:51 AM EDT
Mech infantry are mostly using the M16A4 (the A3 is not used by the Army), with some getting the M4. Airborne and Air Assault are getting the M4's, as are Stryker brigades.
The M16A2 is being replaced by the A4 in most units. M4's are going usually to drivers, and higher officers and NCO's.

hispeedal2,a1
Are you sure you have the M4A1? The M4A1 is the full auto version.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:10:35 AM EDT
Speaking for the air assault infantry, 99.7 percent of the 101st Airborne has M4's. NOT A1's. KAC rail forends, vertical foregrips, PAQ-4C's or PEQ-2A's, M68's, the CompM2 variant in the standard Aimpoint rail grabber (never seen an issued EoTech here), and mixed bags of commercial off the shelf purchase SureFires. A very few replacements might get off the plane with a M16A2 with a M68 in the gooseneck mount, and some of the support units are set up that way, but it's mainly an M4 division. There were perhaps a dozen M16A2's in HHC to fill shortages, as a lot of people who were MTOE'd for just a pistol have a rifle and pistol both, the line medics especially. There are two TangoDown grips in the battalion, four Hogue grips, and one SOPMOD buttstock.

Three squads of nine men, each consisting of two fire teams plus the SL, usually an E-6.
Each fire team has a E-5 team leader with an M4, a SAW gunner, a grenadier (M4/203 combo), and a rifleman with a M4. Each squad has one ACOG at a minimum, in my old company it was SOP to have a shoot-off to see who got it. The weapons squad has two three-man M240B teams and two Javelin gunners, plus the squad leaders. The RTO, medic platoon sergeant, the platoon leader gave us an end-MTOE strength of forty. Sometimes we'd plus up with Javelin AG's for 42 men, gave a little bit more end-strength and pack-mule ability in Weapons Squad.

Alex, you were a 95B, not an 11B, right? The mention of M11's gave it away even before I read your platoon MTOE.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:56:06 AM EDT
Still a bunch of us dragging around M16A2's for now.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:30:25 PM EDT
i thought we had M16A3s on kelly hill @2000. not sure now.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:00:08 PM EDT
I'm an air assault infantryman here in Iraq, and here is what we have:
3 platoons, 4 squads per platoon, 2 fire teams per squad.
Squad leader: M4 (no A1s here) w/ M68 CCO (Aimpoint CompM2)
Teams:
Team leader: M4 w/ M68
Rifleman: M4 w/ M68
Auto-Rifleman: M249 SAW w/ M145 (Elcan)
and then either
Grenadier: M16A4 w/ M203 and M68
or
Designated Marksman: M16A4 DMR w/ ACOG
All ARs have MATECH BUIS
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:01:20 PM EDT
Also, while M4s are common, M4A1s (full auto) are not.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:11:23 PM EDT
My troop in the 2nd Cav is using this

3 line platoons comprised of 4 squads each.
3 squads are 9 M4s, 2 249s, 2 M203s
1 squad of 2 240Bs, 4 M9s 7 M4s

Team leaders and Squad leaders have EOTechs, SAWs and 240Bs have Elcans, AGs and each SDM has either a TA31F or the TA01, all the other M4s have Aimpoints

Haven't seen an M16A4 on post here at Lewis yet, but all the support units are using A2s AFAIK.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoebus:
I'm an air assault infantryman here in Iraq, and here is what we have:
3 platoons, 4 squads per platoon, 2 fire teams per squad.
Squad leader: M4 (no A1s here) w/ M68 CCO (Aimpoint CompM2)
Teams:
Team leader: M4 w/ M68
Rifleman: M4 w/ M68
Auto-Rifleman: M249 SAW w/ M145 (Elcan)
and then either
Grenadier: M16A4 w/ M203 and M68
or
Designated Marksman: M16A4 DMR w/ ACOG
All ARs have MATECH BUIS



Updating my post, also all M16/4 have KAC RAS, KAC VFG, SureFire 951 (or whatever it is) weaponlight, and at least one or two AN/PEQ-2A per team (we don't have enough to go around)

I was a grenadier, am now an SDM. I replaced my A2 buttstock w/ an A1 (short arms/body armor). I prefer to use my IOR optics in place of my ACOG, so I've pretty much passed my ACOG off to my team leader. Our unit pretty much has the policy that as long as it's back to original config when you turn it it, you can mod your weapon as you see fit (team leaders obviously make sure no one is creating an unsafe or unserviceable weapon system).
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:24:35 PM EDT
I had a M16A2 ser# 6044685
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:49:52 PM EDT
it's all about your TO&E(Table of organization and Equipment)

You get what is on their. if your MTOE says M4's that's what you get,etc of course their are exceptions, especially in the guard units. BN's have the ability to take weapons,etc from other BN's who are not deploying within that states infrastructure.

With the Introduction of so many Guard units, Rapid fielding Initiative (RFI) commercial of the shelf (COTS) and local unit funds, etc tied in with a selection of gear unknown to the Military in the past 7 or so years... we have no such thing as "standard Issue" anymore Everything you can think of is out in the field and everyone will label it from good to bad based on their experience with it.

Good luck to the guys who like to do re-enacting in the future and try to use the "Authentic" gear from this period in history....
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:03:05 PM EDT
Standard rifles are M16A2 and the A4 standard issue carbine the M4...just look at the designation M4 picks up from the last time there were issue carbines like the M1,M2,M3...all standar issue carbines when the .30 M1 was the issue service rifle.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:14:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 7:19:56 PM EDT by RRA-A2]
I have a friend who is a PFC in Motor-T (3510) in the USMC, his platoon all has M16A2's. He said the grunts have the A4's.

IIRC, he said the NCO's and higher have M4's.

ETA: 3531
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:19:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoebus:
I'm an air assault infantryman here in Iraq, and here is what we have:
3 platoons, 4 squads per platoon, 2 fire teams per squad.
Squad leader: M4 (no A1s here) w/ M68 CCO (Aimpoint CompM2)
Teams:
Team leader: M4 w/ M68
Rifleman: M4 w/ M68
Auto-Rifleman: M249 SAW w/ M145 (Elcan)
and then either
Grenadier: M16A4 w/ M203 and M68
or
Designated Marksman: M16A4 DMR w/ ACOG
All ARs have MATECH BUIS



Not sure which one you have, but I hope you use it well and stay safe.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:13:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:16:29 PM EDT by Phoebus]

Originally Posted By Harv24:
it's all about your TO&E(Table of organization and Equipment)

You get what is on their. if your MTOE says M4's that's what you get,etc of course their are exceptions, especially in the guard units. BN's have the ability to take weapons,etc from other BN's who are not deploying within that states infrastructure.

With the Introduction of so many Guard units, Rapid fielding Initiative (RFI) commercial of the shelf (COTS) and local unit funds, etc tied in with a selection of gear unknown to the Military in the past 7 or so years... we have no such thing as "standard Issue" anymore Everything you can think of is out in the field and everyone will label it from good to bad based on their experience with it.

Good luck to the guys who like to do re-enacting in the future and try to use the "Authentic" gear from this period in history....hr


Spot on comment. There is a lot more standardization in the regulars than there is in the Guard. Riflemen from different units of the same type, in the same positon, may have an M16A2, M16A4, or an M4. Heck, when i first deployed, I was issued a plain-jane M16A2. Then I was moved to a grenadier slot, so they hung an M203 on it. Then I became designated marksman, and was given an M14/21, and then later an M16A4 (DMR). They gave me the M14 while we were waiting for the DMR to come. I have to say, as much as I love ARs, I kinda wish I had that M14 back. I felt special carrying around my match 7.62 ammohug.gif

If you wanted to define standard infantry issue as what model recruits are trained on, it is currently the M16A4 (mine was an FN when I was in basic!).
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:02:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 7:32:46 AM EDT by Brock63]
I was AF but spent lots of time on ground......most enlisted got M-16 or now with A2 upgrades....Most officers got .38 S&W until we converted to Beretta back in late 80s.

but I was issued M-4 with A2 barrel and sighting system with forward assist from Colt with Sig229 sidearm for tour with alphabet agency.... rest of career was M-16a2 with M-9 in drop holster. M-4 was the burst model as only the SEALS and a couple other units were allowed the full auto versions...

Right before I retired we started getting M-4/A2 again with mixture of sights most of us bought ourselves...Aimpro and Tasco at first were most common.

now I issue whatever I can afford as retired...LOL. Thinking a M-4 16.5 mid forearm and six position stock with rail system for either iron or other glass on top. I like mine clean so a flashlight and sighting system is all I usually do with a good single point sling. I guess I am more basic since I never had the bells and whistles while on active...so that is what I am comfortable with.

Get what you can shoot best and trust...not what looks cool.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:07:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 9:19:46 PM EDT by Black-Tiger]
Most infantry units in the US Army have the M4A1 Carbine while US Marine rifle platoons carry the M16A3/4 Rifle; Most other combat support units carry the M16A2 while other units, like MP units, carry the M4A1 as well.

Is a matter of what the MTOE prescribes to the unit; the MTOE will determine the equipment the unit carries according to the mission the unit plays in the overal order of battle.

I carried an M16A1 in Basic (Colt remanufactured, VN era), then an M16A2 during active duty (New Colt Manufacture), then back to an A1 "franken-Gun" (A1 upper with A2 brass deflector, A1 barrel, Hydramatic lower) in the Reserves; then we got our A2s (New Colt manufacture), then carried an M4A1 in Iraq (New Colt manufacture) and finally carry an M4 in my current duties as an MP (Colt Manufacture).
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:38:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
Most infantry units in the US Army have the M4A1 Carbine while US Marine rifle platoons carry the M16A3/4 Rifle; Most other combat support units carry the M16A2 while other units, like MP units, carry the M4A1 as well.

Is a matter of what the MTOE prescribes to the unit; the MTOE will determine the equipment the unit carries according to the mission the unit plays in the overal order of battle.

I carried an M16A1 in Basic (Colt remanufactured, VN era), then an M16A2 during active duty (New Colt Manufacture), then back to an A1 "franken-Gun" (A1 upper with A2 brass deflector, A1 barrel, Hydramatic lower) in the Reserves; then we got our A2s (New Colt manufacture), then carried an M4A1 in Iraq (New Colt manufacture) and finally carry an M4 in my current duties as an MP (Colt Manufacture).



Yup, it's all about the MTOE. One thing though, you probably have used an M4, rather than an M4A1. The A1 is the full auto version, rarely used by line troops, usually issued only to special units.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:11:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
Most infantry units in the US Army have the M4A1 Carbine while US Marine rifle platoons carry the M16A3/4 Rifle; Most other combat support units carry the M16A2 while other units, like MP units, carry the M4A1 as well.



You are probably not going to find the A3 outside of SeaBee units.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:20:09 PM EDT
Why do people keep saying the regular infantry get the M4A1? The A1 model is full auto. Regular infantry get the standard M4 with 3 round burst.

I think that hispeedal2 made a mistake about what they have.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:13:10 PM EDT
Which model does the U.S. NAVY use is it the M4A1 or the M4A3?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:44:17 PM EDT
The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US military.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:44:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Why do people keep saying the regular infantry get the M4A1? The A1 model is full auto. Regular infantry get the standard M4 with 3 round burst.

I think that hispeedal2 made a mistake about what they have.



Because people don't know what they are talking about.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:50:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 9:52:05 PM EDT by scottryan]
Also, by people answering with M4 or M4A1 are not really answering anything.

I could answer with M9 or M249 and be of no more help to the poster than the people talking about M4s and M4A1s.

He is asking about a rifle. In the US military a carbine is not a rifle. Just like a pistol is not a rifle and a machinegun is not a rifle.

Thats why its called:

US Rifle, Caliber 5.56 x 45 Nato, M16A4

US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

US Carbine, Caliber 5.56 x 45 Nato, M4

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 10:21:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 10:23:36 PM EDT by Phoebus]

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Also, by people answering with M4 or M4A1 are not really answering anything.

I could answer with M9 or M249 and be of no more help to the poster than the people talking about M4s and M4A1s.

He is asking about a rifle. In the US military a carbine is not a rifle. Just like a pistol is not a rifle and a machinegun is not a rifle.

Thats why its called:

US Rifle, Caliber 5.56 x 45 Nato, M16A4

US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

US Carbine, Caliber 5.56 x 45 Nato, M4




That may be the literal interpretation, but obviously his intent is to ask what the primary arm issued to the infantryman is. Sometimes it's a rifle, sometimes it's a carbine. Congratulations on your mad nitpicking skillz.

Literal answer: Primary rifle? None, because the M4 is typically the primary issue weapon for 11 series (infantry).
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:57:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chris157c:
It depends. I think it goes like this. LCpls and below get A4s, NCO's get M4's, and Staff get anything they want and a pistol...

It really varies by unit, and what their armory has available...




rofl hell no man. Everyone e5 and below has an a4. Staff gets the m9/ xm1014/m16. M4's arent general issue to the Marines.






Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:42:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US military.




Not quite! Since you are so good at pointing out everyone’s errors, the USAF does not issue the M16A4. The last time I checked, the USAF was part of the US Military. Although, I was there early in the conflict, I was issued an m16, no M16A1,A2,A3,A4, just a plain Jane old M16. Most USAF troops are now issued M16A2's that are M16's converted to A2 versions. There are exceptions with some of the specialized units, such as the Security Forces and Para Rescue. They carry just about anything. That is why you can't make such a general statement as to what is standard issue. This is just my experience in the AF. But when you look at the US Military in its whole (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve, and Guard) there is no standard issue!

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:54:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
Which model does the U.S. NAVY use is it the M4A1 or the M4A3?


There is no M4A3.

Quick rundown to save me the time of looking for the post.

M16 A2, 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, fixed carry handle.
M16 A2 20 inch barrel, semi and full auto, fixed carry handle. Apparently used mostly by the Navy SeaBees.
M16 A4 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, removeable carry handle/flat top. With the rail it becomes the Modular Weapon System. Slowly replacing the M16A2 in the Army for people not getting the M4.

M4, 14.5 inch barrel, semi and burst. Flat top and with rail becomes the M4 MWS. The originals didn't have a removeable carry handle.
M4A1 same as the M4, but full auto instead of burst.

I left out the A1, XM177 and all the other old stuff.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:20:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 6:21:37 AM EDT by JJREA]

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
Which model does the U.S. NAVY use is it the M4A1 or the M4A3?


There is no M4A3.

Quick rundown to save me the time of looking for the post.

M16 A2, 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, fixed carry handle.
M16 A2 20 inch barrel, semi and full auto, fixed carry handle. Apparently used mostly by the Navy SeaBees.
M16 A4 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, removeable carry handle/flat top. With the rail it becomes the Modular Weapon System. Slowly replacing the M16A2 in the Army for people not getting the M4.

M4, 14.5 inch barrel, semi and burst. Flat top and with rail becomes the M4 MWS. The originals didn't have a removeable carry handle.
M4A1 same as the M4, but full auto instead of burst.

I left out the A1, XM177 and all the other old stuff.



That second one you mention, when it is Full auto, I think that's considered an A3. I could be wrong though.

El tirador, I was under the impression what you have in your hands is an A1. What would be the difference between a 16 and a 16A1? Did you get issued M193??

Thank you for serving. BTW, that is a cool pic.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:41:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US military.




Not quite! Since you are so good at pointing out everyone’s errors, the USAF does not issue the M16A4. The last time I checked, the USAF was part of the US Military. Although, I was there early in the conflict, I was issued an m16, no M16A1,A2,A3,A4, just a plain Jane old M16. Most USAF troops are now issued M16A2's that are M16's converted to A2 versions. There are exceptions with some of the specialized units, such as the Security Forces and Para Rescue. They carry just about anything. That is why you can't make such a general statement as to what is standard issue. This is just my experience in the AF. But when you look at the US Military in its whole (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve, and Guard) there is no standard issue!

www.airfieldops.com/images/Baghdad%20Airport.jpg



Don't try to tell me I am wrong.

If the AF wanted new rifles tommorrow, they would order M16A4s.

An M16 converted to an A2 is not an M16A2. Its a frakengun and is not considered USGI on the same level as a M4, M249, etc..
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:27:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 8:28:00 AM EDT by justice23]

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
The last time I checked, the USAF was part of the US Military.




Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:40:02 AM EDT
MTOE dictates what is issued no matter which part of the US military you are in, There is no "standard issue" really, any more. Unit, Job, and availability, dictates what you carry.

BTW some of you guys ever here of OPSEC? or PERSEC?
cp
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:26:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 9:26:44 AM EDT by TXGunnersM8]
M16A3 is the full-auto variant. SeaBees and most shipboard armories have these. My unit, a Reserve Mobile Security detachment, is still humpin' around M16A2s. We're the only Navy unit I've seen still using these.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 1:01:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eaglecp:
BTW some of you guys ever here of OPSEC? or PERSEC?
cp



I'd say the fact that we use M4s and M16s is pretty widely known.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 1:38:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoebus:

Originally Posted By eaglecp:
BTW some of you guys ever here of OPSEC? or PERSEC?
cp



I'd say the fact that we use M4s and M16s is pretty widely known. hug.gif



he was actually talking about the break down by soldier within a platoon. obviously that guy did think too hard before posting.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:30:34 AM EDT
If an Islamic terrorist is going to surf the Internet to gather information, I truly believe he would have downloaded a copy of FM 7-8, The Infantry Platoon And Squad, and gotten the exact same data along with handy diagrams of who walks where, before he bothers wading through pages and pages of ARFCOM.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:39:10 AM EDT
Just curious, doesn't anyone use iron sights anymore?

It seems every weapon descrition is not complete without some optic as a primary sight.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:09:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US military.




Not quite! Since you are so good at pointing out everyone’s errors, the USAF does not issue the M16A4. The last time I checked, the USAF was part of the US Military. Although, I was there early in the conflict, I was issued an m16, no M16A1,A2,A3,A4, just a plain Jane old M16. Most USAF troops are now issued M16A2's that are M16's converted to A2 versions. There are exceptions with some of the specialized units, such as the Security Forces and Para Rescue. They carry just about anything. That is why you can't make such a general statement as to what is standard issue. This is just my experience in the AF. But when you look at the US Military in its whole (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve, and Guard) there is no standard issue!

www.airfieldops.com/images/Baghdad%20Airport.jpg



Don't try to tell me I am wrong.

If the AF wanted new rifles tommorrow, they would order M16A4s.

An M16 converted to an A2 is not an M16A2. Its a frakengun and is not considered USGI on the same level as a M4, M249, etc..



The "Official Issue" rifle for most of the Air Force is the M16A2, but the folks at Warner-Robbins that manage the AF small arms program are not procuring anymore at this time. Instead, they are buying and fielding M4s to units like Security Forces, Civil Engineers, OSI, TACPs and Combat Weather. Additionally, they are procuring M4A1s for the SOCOM gained units like CCT and PJs. As the newer weapons are fielded, the M16A2s (many still in mint condition) are being redistributed to other units, to replace their older M16s, M16A1s, and GUU-5/Ps.

A few years ago, big blue was trying to save money and decided to convert some of the older M16s to A2s. There are quite a few of these in the inventory, but i believe the majority of AF A2s were purchased new as complete rifles.

As for your statement regarding the AF purchasing M16A4s, all we can do is speculate. However, I have heard discussion that the Air Force will go to M4s across the board in a few years, so that there is only one rifle/carbine (two if you count the M4A1) system in use.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:25:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 10:26:27 AM EDT by EL_TIRADOR]

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US military.




Not quite! Since you are so good at pointing out everyone’s errors, the USAF does not issue the M16A4. The last time I checked, the USAF was part of the US Military. Although, I was there early in the conflict, I was issued an m16, no M16A1,A2,A3,A4, just a plain Jane old M16. Most USAF troops are now issued M16A2's that are M16's converted to A2 versions. There are exceptions with some of the specialized units, such as the Security Forces and Para Rescue. They carry just about anything. That is why you can't make such a general statement as to what is standard issue. This is just my experience in the AF. But when you look at the US Military in its whole (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve, and Guard) there is no standard issue!

www.airfieldops.com/images/Baghdad%20Airport.jpg



Don't try to tell me I am wrong.

If the AF wanted new rifles tommorrow, they would order M16A4s.

An M16 converted to an A2 is not an M16A2. Its a frakengun and is not considered USGI on the same level as a M4, M249, etc..



I'm sorry; I didn't realize you knew everything! I agree that converting the M16's to A2 and crossing-out "AUTO" on the receiver and writing "BURST" with an electro pencil is a frankengun! However, the AF is converting all of their M16's to A2's by this method. In 1999, the AF procured several thousand M16A2's from FN. I was issued a new FN M16A2 when I was in Afghanistan. I wish what I was telling you were a lie, but I have the pictures to back it up. The rifle I had in Baghdad was an M16, with no forward assist, but it had a raised fence around the magazine release. When I was in Haiti in 2004, I was issued an M16 with a serial number in the 75,000 range and it didn't even have a raised fence around the mag release. I have even seen some of the rifles converted to A2's without the raised fence. By-the-way, what's your experience with small arms in the military? Since you seem to know it all, you must have some good stories!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:29:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
Which model does the U.S. NAVY use is it the M4A1 or the M4A3?


There is no M4A3.

Quick rundown to save me the time of looking for the post.

M16 A2, 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, fixed carry handle.
M16 A2 20 inch barrel, semi and full auto, fixed carry handle. Apparently used mostly by the Navy SeaBees.
M16 A4 20 inch barrel, semi and burst, removeable carry handle/flat top. With the rail it becomes the Modular Weapon System. Slowly replacing the M16A2 in the Army for people not getting the M4.

M4, 14.5 inch barrel, semi and burst. Flat top and with rail becomes the M4 MWS. The originals didn't have a removeable carry handle.
M4A1 same as the M4, but full auto instead of burst.

I left out the A1, XM177 and all the other old stuff.



That second one you mention, when it is Full auto, I think that's considered an A3. I could be wrong though.

El tirador, I was under the impression what you have in your hands is an A1. What would be the difference between a 16 and a 16A1? Did you get issued M193??

Thank you for serving. BTW, that is a cool pic.



The M16A1 has a forward assist, this rifle doesn't. BTW, this rifle even has a chrome bolt and carrier.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:32:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WiseguyThreeOne:
If an Islamic terrorist is going to surf the Internet to gather information, I truly believe he would have downloaded a copy of FM 7-8, The Infantry Platoon And Squad, and gotten the exact same data along with handy diagrams of who walks where, before he bothers wading through pages and pages of ARFCOM.




Sorry but that is beside and exactly my point, some, Including you, can not see the value of OPSEC as your own violation above indicates. FM's like you mention are very often (NOT ALWAYS) OUT -of -Date online with Current MTOE right now. Changes have been made In Country and this info should be protected by those of us who are using it. Those above that are giving break downs of their Unit Armament should Know better. It doesnt matter that some of this info can be sought by islamic terrorist, as you say, on the internet, ASSUMING They do not use resources like ARFCOM shows a thought process that is exactly what these pukes feed on. ASSUME nothing. Just because they can find it somewhere else, does that make it right to offer it up here?????

NOW the question that was asked originally could have been answered in a , (as some of us did), way that would not give out OPSEC info. THE QUESTION POSED WAS "WHAT IS THE STANDARD ISSUE WEAPON" RIGHT?

ANSWER : IT IS WELL DOCUMETED THAT THE M4, M4A1, M16A2, M16A4, ARE USED BY OUR MILITARY. THESE ARE ALL "STANDARD ISSUE" STANDARD ISSUE OF WHICH WEAPON YOU GEt IS DICTATED BY YOUR UNITS MTOE. PERIOD!!!!

THERE IS AND WAS NO NEED , TO BREAK IT DOWN ANY FURTHER THAN THAT, ANY FURTHER THAN THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED AN OPSEC ISSUE PERIOD!

All Im saying is, it not a good idea to be putting info like this out on the net on any forum that could be used by our enemies, and some should be more sensitive to that rule instead of trying to impress other people with their knowledge.

chuck
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:02:02 PM EDT
Sorry my mistake for typing M4A3.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:54:41 AM EDT
Well, the MTOE I posted was from the assault phase of OIF 1 three years ago, does not reflect our current task organization, and in fact the unit it most closely reflected was officially deactivated and the physical assets taken over by a bunch of 19D's to make a cav squadron.

I'm not a TOTAL idiot.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 1:07:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eaglecp:

Originally Posted By WiseguyThreeOne:
If an Islamic terrorist is going to surf the Internet to gather information, I truly believe he would have downloaded a copy of FM 7-8, The Infantry Platoon And Squad, and gotten the exact same data along with handy diagrams of who walks where, before he bothers wading through pages and pages of ARFCOM.




Sorry but that is beside and exactly my point, some, Including you, can not see the value of OPSEC as your own violation above indicates. FM's like you mention are very often (NOT ALWAYS) OUT -of -Date online with Current MTOE right now. Changes have been made In Country and this info should be protected by those of us who are using it. Those above that are giving break downs of their Unit Armament should Know better. It doesnt matter that some of this info can be sought by islamic terrorist, as you say, on the internet, ASSUMING They do not use resources like ARFCOM shows a thought process that is exactly what these pukes feed on. ASSUME nothing. Just because they can find it somewhere else, does that make it right to offer it up here?????

NOW the question that was asked originally could have been answered in a , (as some of us did), way that would not give out OPSEC info. THE QUESTION POSED WAS "WHAT IS THE STANDARD ISSUE WEAPON" RIGHT?

ANSWER : IT IS WELL DOCUMETED THAT THE M4, M4A1, M16A2, M16A4, ARE USED BY OUR MILITARY. THESE ARE ALL "STANDARD ISSUE" STANDARD ISSUE OF WHICH WEAPON YOU GEt IS DICTATED BY YOUR UNITS MTOE. PERIOD!!!!

THERE IS AND WAS NO NEED , TO BREAK IT DOWN ANY FURTHER THAN THAT, ANY FURTHER THAN THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED AN OPSEC ISSUE PERIOD!

All Im saying is, it not a good idea to be putting info like this out on the net on any forum that could be used by our enemies, and some should be more sensitive to that rule instead of trying to impress other people with their knowledge.

chuck



If I were an Islamofascist and read that breakdown of who carries what, my only thought would be "Oh Sh*t, we are F*cking Screwed..."

Knowing that I have an AN/PEQ-2A wouldn't have saved any of the tangos that I've killed over here thus far.

While from a technical standpoint I supposed it could be construed as an opsec issue, this stuff is available everywhere, and I don't think it has done the enemy a lick of good. What countermeasures do you think they could come up with by knowing that our infantrymen carry *gasp* rifles and machineguns with sights on them? Who would've thought. Ever peruse the site globalsecurity.org? I can find stuff out about my units there that even I didn't know.
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