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Posted: 1/28/2006 11:45:13 AM EDT
Ok so Im at the gunshow today and a company is selling what is supposed to be the exact same upper reciever and barrel that the military is currently using. The rep said that the upper and barrel were both FN. The uppers were marked with what looked like a key hole and I didn't see any markings on the barrel. He said that they were manufactured by FN in columbia SC and that since they had a military contract they couldn't mark their recievers with FN. I was wandering if anyone could tell me if these are actually the real deal or not and what they would be worth if it was.

They had the FN reciever, a 1in9 twist 14.5 inch FN barrel W/ phantom flash hider permantely attached, yankee hill free float quad rail, and a folding yankee hill front sight, without a bolt carrier, bolt or charging handle for $733 out the door. Are they worth it???

Adam
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:48:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 11:48:17 AM EDT by Snaps]
well mil uses 1/7 so that ain't it.

On another note I've been under the impression that FN was not allowed to sell AR stuff to civilians????
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:53:08 AM EDT
I thought the military used 1 in 7 as well but wasn't sure. He had some Shaw barrels that looked exactly like the one on these my guess is that he was probably using those barrels. Is the keyhole marking FN's trademark?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:56:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:
I thought the military used 1 in 7 as well but wasn't sure. He had some Shaw barrels that looked exactly like the one on these my guess is that he was probably using those barrels. Is the keyhole marking FN's trademark?



the keyhole is the FORGING companys mark...the military FN uppers have the Forging marks on them and then an "F" "engraved in the upper" barrels are marked FNMI 5.56 NATO 1/7
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:58:00 AM EDT
so sounds to me like you didn't get ripped off by a conman..

Congrats bubba
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:06:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 5:08:37 PM EDT by _DR]
1. FN Does not manufacture the M4, only the M16, M249 and M240. ( and M2 I believe)
2. If it does not have THIS (below) stamped on the barrel, it's not an FN Barrel. Period.




The Keyhole forge mark is CERRO FORGE. They supply quality forgings to many manufacturers.

Cerro Mark on a Colt upper.


I call BS on those jokers.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:40:00 PM EDT
sounds like its a good thing that I passed on the deal thanks for the quick replys fellas
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:31:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:
sounds like its a good thing that I passed on the deal thanks for the quick replys fellas



You should go back to the show tomorrow and let him in on your new found knowledge.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:40:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMARINE1108:

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:
sounds like its a good thing that I passed on the deal thanks for the quick replys fellas



You should go back to the show tomorrow and let him in on your new found knowledge.



Actually, you should go to the people putting the show on and tell them about this.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:24:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:
Ok so Im at the gunshow today and a company is selling what is supposed to be the exact same upper reciever and barrel that the military is currently using. The rep said that the upper and barrel were both FN. The uppers were marked with what looked like a key hole and I didn't see any markings on the barrel. He said that they were manufactured by FN in columbia SC and that since they had a military contract they couldn't mark their recievers with FN. I was wandering if anyone could tell me if these are actually the real deal or not and what they would be worth if it was.

They had the FN reciever, a 1in9 twist 14.5 inch FN barrel W/ phantom flash hider permantely attached, yankee hill free float quad rail, and a folding yankee hill front sight, without a bolt carrier, bolt or charging handle for $733 out the door. Are they worth it???

Adam



Good job on holding off and asking here...There is that element ( say whatever to make the sale) at the fun shows...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By USMARINE1108:

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:
sounds like its a good thing that I passed on the deal thanks for the quick replys fellas



You should go back to the show tomorrow and let him in on your new found knowledge.



Actually, you should go to the people putting the show on and tell them about this.



They'll just say "It's made by FN subcontractors, that why there are no markings" or some such BS.
Lies like these are very, very common at gun shows. The orgainzers can/will do nothing. They just want your $7.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:30:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:07:35 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Snaps:

On another note I've been under the impression that FN was not allowed to sell AR stuff to civilians????



Officially, no... However I did manage to land my hands on an FNMI marked 1/7 M16A2 barrel. Fulton Armory had two. How they got them? Don't know, not my issue. The barrel was new and after 8,000 rounds shows virtually no wear(Chrome lined C/B). With good ammo it's a tack driver.

Gotta love 'em.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:29:02 PM EDT
coolness.....


on another note things like this are why i hate friggin gunshows anymore
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:26:55 AM EDT
gunshow con artist
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:54:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:
well mil uses 1/7 so that ain't it.

On another note I've been under the impression that FN was not allowed to sell AR stuff to civilians????



I keep hearing that, but I have an upper receiver with the Cerro forge mark and F, an FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 marked 20" barrel, bolt carrier marked F and bolt marked MPF. It's all FN and I will scrounge up the parts for another all Fn upper. Forget Colt, I like FN kool aid. However, my Colt has all matching Colt parts too.

AIRBORNE!
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:50:01 AM EDT
Gun show sellers always call any upper components FN if they have no "FN" clue who made them.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:52:17 AM EDT
Which dealer was this?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:10:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
Which dealer was this?



Some of your are making silly generalizations about Dealers and Gunshow Promoters. You make it sound like every Dealer and every Promoter sole purpose is life is to take your money with every lie they can come up with. Get real. This was one dishonest or misinformed dealer. There are just as many or more attendies at the show trying to rip us off with collector firearms that have never been fired "I swear it was owned by a little old ladie who only took it out on Sundays to show it to her bridge club," to professional thieves try to steal every little item that isn't tied down on our tables.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:07:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RCRTR:

I keep hearing that, but I have an upper receiver with the Cerro forge mark and F, an FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 marked 20" barrel, bolt carrier marked F and bolt marked MPF. It's all FN and I will scrounge up the parts for another all Fn upper. Forget Colt, I like FN kool aid. However, my Colt has all matching Colt parts too.

AIRBORNE!



when your ready for your other one i have more parts
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:26:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
Which dealer was this?



Some of your are making silly generalizations about Dealers and Gunshow Promoters. You make it sound like every Dealer and every Promoter sole purpose is life is to take your money with every lie they can come up with. Get real. This was one dishonest or misinformed dealer. There are just as many or more attendies at the show trying to rip us off with collector firearms that have never been fired "I swear it was owned by a little old ladie who only took it out on Sundays to show it to her bridge club," to professional thieves try to steal every little item that isn't tied down on our tables.


well most dealers yea do try to rip people off for no other reason that everybody knows they'll geta better deal at the gunshow

For instance last one i went to was about a year ago where dude was selling 2K (preban) bushmasters. I can actually remember when i was a bit younger and gunshows were likea collectors thing for the most part.

Anymore it's just like every dealer moves their shit to the expomart for a weekend and jacks the price up 10% on everything.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
Which dealer was this?



Some of your are making silly generalizations about Dealers and Gunshow Promoters. You make it sound like every Dealer and every Promoter sole purpose is life is to take your money with every lie they can come up with. Get real. This was one dishonest or misinformed dealer. There are just as many or more attendies at the show trying to rip us off with collector firearms that have never been fired "I swear it was owned by a little old ladie who only took it out on Sundays to show it to her bridge club," to professional thieves try to steal every little item that isn't tied down on our tables.


well most dealers yea do try to rip people off for no other reason that everybody knows they'll geta better deal at the gunshow

For instance last one i went to was about a year ago where dude was selling 2K (preban) bushmasters. I can actually remember when i was a bit younger and gunshows were likea collectors thing for the most part.

Anymore it's just like every dealer moves their shit to the expomart for a weekend and jacks the price up 10% on everything.



You speak of one dealer at one show and generalize to all dealers at all show. Do you really think any dealer or any show would be in business if all dealers were out to rip you off? Do you really believe this? If you do, why would ever deal with any dealer or go to any show, ever? So, I can generalize about the customer who traded me a shotgun "never fired" and I get it back to the shop, tear it down and it has carbon all over and is missing part. This happened several years ago, yet every customer is out to screw me?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:10:10 PM EDT
no i speak of years of experience and pretty much every dealer there since say.. 02



i don't trust any dealer at a gunshow.. especialy when you can get their card and drive to their shop on monday when the pricetag is less
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:13:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:
no i speak of years of experience and pretty much every dealer there since say.. 02



i don't trust any dealer at a gunshow.. especialy when you can get their card and drive to their shop on monday when the pricetag is less



Why the hell do you keep on going?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:15:00 PM EDT
why not?

I very rarely buy anything at a gunshow but maybe slings or other cheap stuff....

otherwise it's a good way to kill a day and figure out what you want check everything out.. Then ya get online or go to the same shop later for a lower price.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:18:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:
why not?

I very rarely buy anything at a gunshow but maybe slings or other cheap stuff....

otherwise it's a good way to kill a day and figure out what you want check everything out.. Then ya get online or go to the same shop later for a lower price.



Because they are all theives so are the promoters, why give them any money at all? Or could it be that you are exaggerating to the extreme? While I am not going to come right out and call you a liar, even though you have called me a thief, I don't believe you know what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:31:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 9:32:33 PM EDT by SamColt]
Was it Black Rifle Works?

just a guess based on products described etc. they told me recently at a NC show that they use all FN uppers and barrels - who knows sometimes who makes what for who and marks it how.....overwhelming info - Long Live ARFCOM!!!!!


ETA: sorry - all their uppers are FN they advertise. Barrels were labeled Shaw, DPMS etc IIRC
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:31:46 PM EDT
no not exaggerating a thing..

if your little feelings are hurt by the fact that people in what is apparently your field give you a bad name do something to change it.

I never said anything about thepromoters.. their only there to make money, it's not their concern.

but as always if some idiot's willing to pay then they'd be stupid not to take it. i'll just get the card when i find something i want and call after the wekeend to get the better price. I did it with my LE colt, i did it with remington 700, my HK tac and my Desert Eagle..

the smallest i saved was like 50bucks on the Remington. Problem is everybody *KNOWS* they'll get a better price... it's just business. i don't hold it against anybody.

What i do hold against them is flat out lying about products.. the prebans are a popular thing, and i'm from SW PA where we have no ban yet everybody' sstill selling their stuff as something that you can have a tele-stock on it just costs more.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:37:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:
no not exaggerating a thing..

if your little feelings are hurt by the fact that people in what is apparently your field give you a bad name do something to change it.

I never said anything about thepromoters.. their only there to make money, it's not their concern.

but as always if some idiot's willing to pay then they'd be stupid not to take it. i'll just get the card when i find something i want and call after the wekeend to get the better price. I did it with my LE colt, i did it with remington 700, my HK tac and my Desert Eagle..

the smallest i saved was like 50bucks on the Remington. Problem is everybody *KNOWS* they'll get a better price... it's just business. i don't hold it against anybody.

What i do hold against them is flat out lying about products.. the prebans are a popular thing, and i'm from SW PA where we have no ban yet everybody' sstill selling their stuff as something that you can have a tele-stock on it just costs more.



No, you are not hurting my feelings. Since I am a Dealer, and you have never dealt with with me, therefore you are wrong, not every Dealer is a thief.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:40:05 PM EDT
dint say all were.. i said i don't trust any of htem..

it's not just gundealers i don't trust though don't worry.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:51:06 PM EDT
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:54:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RCRTR:

Originally Posted By Snaps:
well mil uses 1/7 so that ain't it.

On another note I've been under the impression that FN was not allowed to sell AR stuff to civilians????



I keep hearing that, but I have an upper receiver with the Cerro forge mark and F, an FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 marked 20" barrel, bolt carrier marked F and bolt marked MPF. It's all FN and I will scrounge up the parts for another all Fn upper. Forget Colt, I like FN kool aid. However, my Colt has all matching Colt parts too.

AIRBORNE!



RED -

BLUE - I'm working on it
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:14:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Gun show sellers always call any upper components FN if they have no "FN" clue who made them.




This always appears to FN' be the case in My neck of the woods as well.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:08:35 AM EDT
I first saw some of these mystery FN uppers at a gun show back in December 2003. At the time I was not as informed about FNs so I just assumed the guy selling them knew what he was talking about. I didn't buy one, only because I was saving up for a M1A at the time. I didn't look to see what markings were on the barrels or receivers. I'm glad I didn't buy one especially knowing what I know now.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:58:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunnut003:

Originally Posted By RCRTR:

Originally Posted By Snaps:
well mil uses 1/7 so that ain't it.

On another note I've been under the impression that FN was not allowed to sell AR stuff to civilians????



I keep hearing that, but I have an upper receiver with the Cerro forge mark and F, an FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 marked 20" barrel, bolt carrier marked F and bolt marked MPF. It's all FN and I will scrounge up the parts for another all Fn upper. Forget Colt, I like FN kool aid. However, my Colt has all matching Colt parts too.

AIRBORNE!



RED -

BLUE - I'm working on it



It's probably normal that a small quantity of real FN parts will find their way out into the market. That's how I got my barrel. But you will never see the real items stocked as regular merchandise or advertised as such. That said I hope more of them "leak" out.

As for these jokers saying their no-name parts are FNMI...well there are always snake oil vendors out there. Emptor Caveat
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:06:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 7:07:50 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.

Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:53:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:48:24 AM EDT by terrydavis]

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:55:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 7:57:10 AM EDT by PFC_Kramer]


barrels are marked FNMI 5.56 NATO 1/7





+1
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:09:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 11:07:15 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.



Almost all dealers? No way. Can't agree with that. Many? Sure. But almost all, that's not my experience.

Of course these terms and this entire discussion is subjective anyway as it is based on anecdotal evidence only and personal interpretation, which is to be taken with a grain of salt.

The best way to get what you expect is simply to be very well informed concerning what you are purchasing.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:14:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 9:15:14 AM EDT by cfek9]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.




you sound like you are defending yourself for whatever reason hese
there are lots of dealers that will take advantage of the unknowing and will say whatever to make a buck. most dont know what the hell they are talking about and few that i have talked to actually do. after struggling to make a buck they tend to get desperate and will cheat the unknowing.hinking.gif

terrydavis if you are not one of them there is no need for you to defend yourself, if your customer service is good then that alone will carry your rep and your defense
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:59:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cfek9:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.




you sound like you are defending yourself for whatever reason if you are not one of these "types" then why must you get so defensive? are you the sole protector or gun dealers?

there are lots of dealers that will take advantage of the unknowing and will say whatever to make a buck. most dont know what the hell they are talking about and few that i have talked to actually do. after struggling to make a buck they tend to get desperate and will cheat the unknowing.

terrydavis if you are not one of them there is no need for you to defend yourself, if your customer service is good then that alone will carry your rep and your defense



I do see a need to defend myself and dealers in general. Wild accusations are flying and I'm being lumped in with ever other dealer. In fact every dealer in being lumped in in these comments. The idea that "all" or "most" is an extreme statement. If this is true in your experience, then you have very little experience. I have a vast experience as I go to shows every weekend of the year. Over the past 5 years my missed weekends can be counted on one hand. I interact with these dealers for three days, counting set up on Fridays. Some of them I know personally and deal with them outside of the show. I will not deny some are crooks, most of those are fly by night dealers who were walking the show the last month. They come from your pool, not mine. Yes, I take exception to being called a crook.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 11:17:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SamColt:
Was it Black Rifle Works?

just a guess based on products described etc. they told me recently at a NC show that they use all FN uppers and barrels - who knows sometimes who makes what for who and marks it how.....overwhelming info - Long Live ARFCOM!!!!!


ETA: sorry - all their uppers are FN they advertise. Barrels were labeled Shaw, DPMS etc IIRC



Bingo you guessed it Black Rifle Works, and it was at the gunshow at the greensboro NC last weekend that this happened. The "FN" uppers that they had were marked with the keyhole only. The guy behind the counter told me that FN couldn't mark thier uppers with the F because of thier military contract. hinking.gif They also had some "FN" uppers outside of the case set up with 14.5" Shaw barrels and M4 handguards when I asked about having the same parts installed on the shaw barrels like those on the "FN" barrel amazingly the price was going to be the same. hmmm.....

I normally love going to gun shows if for nothing else but to get to handle and see more GUNS, but people like this really piss me off. And by all means I don't think that all gunshow dealers are like this (at least here in NC) because many of them are local dealers that I know personally or have dealt with before successfully, but its guys like these that give gunshows a bad name. I definately will not be doing business with them, and will just skip over thier table at the next show!!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:23:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
Which dealer was this?

Some of your are making silly generalizations about Dealers and Gunshow Promoters. You make it sound like every Dealer and every Promoter sole purpose is life is to take your money with every lie they can come up with. Get real. This was one dishonest or misinformed dealer. There are just as many or more attendies at the show trying to rip us off with collector firearms that have never been fired "I swear it was owned by a little old ladie who only took it out on Sundays to show it to her bridge club," to professional thieves try to steal every little item that isn't tied down on our tables.

I made no such generalization. I go to gun shows to patronize honest dealers that sell quality products that stand on their own without misrepresentations and false claims. I've been to shows in NC where I've purchased from good vendors (including some ARFCOM Dealers and members) selling excellent merchandise. That said, I've seen vendors who take the opposite tack and try to rip people off. I want to know who they are.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:29:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By SlimHazy:
Which dealer was this?

Some of your are making silly generalizations about Dealers and Gunshow Promoters. You make it sound like every Dealer and every Promoter sole purpose is life is to take your money with every lie they can come up with. Get real. This was one dishonest or misinformed dealer. There are just as many or more attendies at the show trying to rip us off with collector firearms that have never been fired "I swear it was owned by a little old ladie who only took it out on Sundays to show it to her bridge club," to professional thieves try to steal every little item that isn't tied down on our tables.

I made no such generalization. I go to gun shows to patronize honest dealers that sell quality products that stand on their own without misrepresentations and false claims. I've been to shows in NC where I've purchased from good vendors (including some ARFCOM Dealers and members) selling excellent merchandise. That said, I've seen vendors who take the opposite tack and try to rip people off. I want to know who they are.




+1

here in tx i deal with lonestarwholesale all the time along with northwesthouston tactical.

there are some of the guys at the gunshow that have and will take you for your money. i have heard outrageous comments and sales tactics.

last show i attended there was a dealer telling customers that one could easily purchase m16 parts and convert the ar15 to shoot full auto in mere minutes and all the parts are easily accessable from other vendors.



at the shows there are about 50% of the vendors that fall in the "crook" category. but this is through personal experiences and i do not judge those that i have not dealt with. those that i have will get my opinion voiced about them
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:31:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

last show i attended there was a dealer telling customers that one could easily purchase m16 parts and convert the ar15 to shoot full auto in mere minutes and all the parts are easily accessable from other vendors.


well yea dude, it's like those numbers for autosears that the guy picks up and goes "AT.... I mean bill's guns, how can i help you?"
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:36:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

last show i attended there was a dealer telling customers that one could easily purchase m16 parts and convert the ar15 to shoot full auto in mere minutes and all the parts are easily accessable from other vendors.


well yea dude, it's like those numbers for autosears that the guy picks up and goes "AT.... I mean bill's guns, how can i help you?"




these guys were using that sales pitch to sell the ar15's they had for sale.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:36:35 AM EDT
'But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too. '

You should sit with me for a show or two. If you think dealers are "idiotic scalpers and deceptive" you shoud see what I have to deal with. I think promoters should start giving IQ test at the front door.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:44:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.



Almost all? No way dude, you are seriously biased. I have had as many bad dealings with dealers as good. The last dealer I went to when I went to pick up my pistol talked to his friends in the gunshop for 20 minutes before even acknowledging me. He also charged more than he quoted me over the phone, but I didn't wanna deal with it. You are dreaming.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:05:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
'But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too. '

You should sit with me for a show or two. If you think dealers are "idiotic scalpers and deceptive" you shoud see what I have to deal with. I think promoters should start giving IQ test at the front door.



I don't disagree with you there.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:09:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sepsis:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
You suggest I do something to change things. I am responsible for me and me only. If I think a Promoter is below par, I won't support their show. What I question is that if you really feel the way you do, by going to the shows you are supporting the very activity that you are complaining about. You are the one that can do something about it, don't go to a show. Even if those dealers, and there must be many thousands in your area alone since '02 not to mention the 100s of thousands in the USA, are still going to shows and screwing every single person they deal with, at the very least, you would not be affected since you were not there. I can't say much for the intelligence of all of you going to the shows and getting screwed every time by every dealer. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me.



There are still some honest dealers out there. At DFW Market hall gun shows dealers like Bachman, Doc Walther, and others offer great deals, a good 5% lower than their in-shop prices. and all genuine guns/parts.

But it's the many idiotic scalpers and deceptive dealers that give gun shows a bad rap.
After a while you learn to just laugh at the idiots with their fake or overpriced wares and attitudes, and give your business to the honest dealers. There are still plenty of them too.


Half the fun is rooting out the good dealers and getting the deals, to me anyway.



I still question the statements "all dealers," "most dealers" and "every other deale.r," I think you will find, if you approach this in an intelligent manner, almost all dealers are honest and will bend over backwards to satisfy you. If your only complaint is price, well prices has nothing to with dishonesty. I find a lot of customers have no business sense at all. They will offer $200.00 less than you pay on a rifle and won't believe you when I tell them that is way under my cost. I'm in this business because I like firearms and I want to make money. Just because you don't get the price you want doesn't make a dealer a crook. That' just crazy.



Almost all? No way dude, you are seriously biased. I have had as many bad dealings with dealers as good. The last dealer I went to when I went to pick up my pistol talked to his friends in the gunshop for 20 minutes before even acknowledging me. He also charged more than he quoted me over the phone, but I didn't wanna deal with it. You are dreaming.



Until I saw where you post from, I thought it was a local place that I've bashed in the hometown threads for the same reason. I NEVER pay above what was initially quoted. "Err, well, we didn't remember to order that part with the rest, so shipping was more" or "well, we canceled the other orders for that vendor, so your item was the only piece shipped, so cost goes up for shipping and shit"...no fuck that, or whatever reason you have. When you quoted me a price you did not explain that it was contingent on YOU keeping your shit together. I can't stand that crap.

I have seen many dishonest vendors at gunshows, or vendors who jack up prices to an insane level. However, there are plenty of good dealers at the shows as well. There are a lot of things I don't buy a shows anymore because I know I can simply find it for less online or locally in a few instances, but some products I get exclusively at the local show.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:12:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 10:13:18 AM EDT by terrydavis]

Originally Posted By Sepsis:

Almost all? No way dude, you are seriously biased. I have had as many bad dealings with dealers as good. The last dealer I went to when I went to pick up my pistol talked to his friends in the gunshop for 20 minutes before even acknowledging me. He also charged more than he quoted me over the phone, but I didn't wanna deal with it. You are dreaming.



Any one that uses one anecdotal incident to bolster their entire argument, and then argues a point not even being discussed is "dreaming." One dealer equals all, almost all or many is a lazy argument. I challange anyone to get a list of Dealers at any show and go down the list, marking which are crooks and which are not. I'm getting the impression that a "bad dealer" is some one who hurt your feelings. I would even be comfortable using the subset of just the dealers you deal personally with and I will still argue that "all", "almost all" or even "many" is a gross exaggeration. I will give you some dealers are bad, but I make a distinction between dealer, some one who rented a table for the weekend, who is usually walking the asiles himself and Dealer, a professional with a FFL or at least a State Sales Permit who does this for a living.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:21:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By silenthunter1984:

Originally Posted By SamColt:
Was it Black Rifle Works?

just a guess based on products described etc. they told me recently at a NC show that they use all FN uppers and barrels - who knows sometimes who makes what for who and marks it how.....overwhelming info - Long Live ARFCOM!!!!!


ETA: sorry - all their uppers are FN they advertise. Barrels were labeled Shaw, DPMS etc IIRC



Bingo you guessed it Black Rifle Works, and it was at the gunshow at the greensboro NC last weekend that this happened. The "FN" uppers that they had were marked with the keyhole only. The guy behind the counter told me that FN couldn't mark thier uppers with the F because of thier military contract. They also had some "FN" uppers outside of the case set up with 14.5" Shaw barrels and M4 handguards when I asked about having the same parts installed on the shaw barrels like those on the "FN" barrel amazingly the price was going to be the same. hmmm.....

I normally love going to gun shows if for nothing else but to get to handle and see more GUNS, but people like this really piss me off. And by all means I don't think that all gunshow dealers are like this (at least here in NC) because many of them are local dealers that I know personally or have dealt with before successfully, but its guys like these that give gunshows a bad name. I definately will not be doing business with them, and will just skip over thier table at the next show!!



yep - if you know exactly what you are looking for - that crowd is ok to deal with BRW. Nice enough and on the pricing which is sometimes high - I say let the buyer beware on that.

But other stuff on their table I just cruise right past - like complete uppers etc. I don't know their armorers or should I say assemblers any more than the man on the moon.

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