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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why Short Barrels Make Sense (Page 2 of 6)

Posted: 1/26/2006 1:43:40 PM EDT

[#1]

No mention of the FBI study regarding the 5.56's purported safer use (to non-combatants) in urban CQB situations? That would've rounded out that post nicely...

Posted: 1/26/2006 1:44:29 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
A 5.45 bullet is not more effective from a terminal performance perspective than a 77 or 75 grain OTM that does not fagment. Both bullets yaw at about the same depth and both are about an inch long and are a similar diameter. 5.45 is a horrible choice when 5.56 is available which gives you everything the 5.45 has plus fragmentation at closer ranges and a larger case capacity.

Lets be clear... 5.45 SUCKS and has ZERO advantages over current technolody 5.56 ammunition. NONE.

Well let's see since clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. The 5.45 is within 75FPS muzzle velocity as the 5.56NATO. The 5.45 also has a steel core penetrator, but carries expansive wound capacity to ranges out to 500 yrds since it's basis of design is centered around yaw for wounding capacity. Now 5.56 has a slightly heavier bullet, also steel penetrator, but is limited to under 200 yards in most cases for terminal wound capacity from a carbine length barrel. Now both are 1.5" typical MOA rounds, very accurate- however the 5.45 has almost twice the range for terminal wound capacity than 5.56NATO and yet utilizes a lighter round. Not saying the 5.45 is superior but really 5.56 is a paper puncher past 200 yrds. The simple use of a hollow cavity in the tip of the 5.45 makes the round very unstable, sure it doesn't fragment like the 5.56 but terminal wounding capability in terms of range is twice that of 5.56NATO.

So why not design the 62 gr, 5.56NATO round, with a simple hollow cavity at the tip, that way it still retains the fragmentation quality in ranges under 200 yrds because of the thin jacket but also has that oh so nasty tumble superior yaw wounding capacity that the 5.45 possesses- basically the best of both worlds. We all know 5.56 does yaw, but no where near like 5.45, hell the 5.45 flips probably twenty times in less than six inches of balistics gellatin- just imagine it hitting a bone. Unstability, yaw capaility kills at greater ranges than gross fragmentation which is velocity specific.

Simple- utitlize the best of both worlds, create a better bullet, then no more SPR use, no more 77gr, no more 6.8SPC- since all of those being to fix the problems associated with a simple design flaw in the 5.56NATO.

hell the 5.45 flips probably twenty times in less than six inches of balistics gellatin This must be the magic bullet I have heard tell of.

Joe

Posted: 1/26/2006 1:49:33 PM EDT

[#3]

Creeper, DevL is correct. In my copy of the 1988 Emergency War Surgery handbook the diagram of the performance of 53gr 5.45mm projectiles in gel indicates that it yaws from 7-23cm and again from 27-40cm. So at most, that is 1-2 revolutions inside the body.

Posted: 1/26/2006 1:50:50 PM EDT

[#4]

5.56 STILL YAWS PAST 200 yard or meters!!! It is a function of the bullet not the velocity!!!
Damn, Damn, Damn

Also this is getting way off topic, the thread starter didn't intend this to be a "Wonder Bullet" discussion!!!

Posted: 1/26/2006 1:54:19 PM EDT

[#5]

Fackler on the 5.45 terminal effects in tissue:

"None of the bullets which struck animal soft tissue or gelatin deforemed or fragmented; the bullet jacket surrounding the hollw tip did seperate in the shot throught the knee joint... All of the bullets had passed through the maximum 90 degree of yaw... and were recovered in the base forward position... the yaw began within 5cm of penetration and reached a maximum at 18cm of penetration" (THIS IS A SINGLE YAW CYCLE OF 5.45 BTW) "The permanant tissue disruption in muscle, bowel wall and lung varied from a round .6cm hole to an oblong slit-like hole measuring 2.7x.6cm..."

So much for extreme yaw, massive damage, imagine if it hit bone, and all your other garbage ideas.

75 grain OTM ammo also yaws at the same 2" depth of penetration and is virtually the same length and diameter of the 5.45 round. The permanant tissue damage will also be the exact same profile slit in the tissue.

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:00:43 PM EDT

[#6]

I did not mention the lesser penetration because I consider the M4 vs. MP5 argument to be all but settled in professional circles.

DevL, the salient point is that the AMX may provide slightly greater wounding potential than a non fragmenting M855 bullet. The cost of TAP and similar rounds is prohibitive for general purpose issue, although they are preferable. Mind you also that the USAR was looking at using the XM8 with its 12" barrel. Glad as I am that that program is dead, it shows that the Army is considering it's short barreled options, and new ammunition is only part of the package.

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:08:11 PM EDT

[#7]

I love these 5.56 vs. 5.45 debates. 5.56 is gay and ineffective!!! No, 5.45 is gay and ineffective!!! Ah, it's great. Look guys, both rounds will kill you. Period. Both rounds have killed enough people to populate a small state. So which is better? Some will say 5.56, some will say 5.45. I personally say 5.56. But guess what: who cares? If you ever are in a situation that requires you to shoot someone, I guarantee a few bullets and good shot placement, using either caliber, will ruin the bad guys entire day.

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:08:42 PM EDT

[#8]

Dr. Fackler on military bullet wounds

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:09:49 PM EDT

[#9]

The AMAX underpenetrates. Widespread adoption of the OTM bullets would reduce cost. Making a thin jacketed FMJ bullet of otherwise identical construction would further reduce costs to a point of being a non issue. With what we pay for every other type of weaponsystem or ammunition being so high I dont think the US military is restricted in the amount of money that can be spent on a 5.56 ammunition upgrade especially if the fact our ammo was "ineffective" was brought to the medias attention... much like the issue with body armor. The money is there.

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:13:13 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
... especially if the fact our ammo was "ineffective" was brought to the medias attention... much like the issue with body armor. The money is there.

Good idea.

Anybody have any other bones to pick? Any ideas for my next article?

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:39:24 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
To sum up my article: "We live in a 300M world." Pick your tools accordingly.

This is certainly in the spirit of my article.

That wasn't just an awesome first post, that was a sermon.

Thanks for convincing me to get off my arse and get my SBR.

wganz
¶

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:42:45 PM EDT

[#12]

That was very well said. I agree with your views.

Posted: 1/26/2006 2:59:18 PM EDT

[#13]

I liked the read and agree with what I already knew, and appreciate the enlightenment in the others

Regarding the section.........

Furthermore, suppressors such as Gemtech’s M4-02 and Surefire’s innovative new suppressor create a package only slightly longer than an M4 Carbine, and much quieter, while adding 40-50 feet per second due to a phenomenon called freebore boost.

The use of todays better suppressors negates the biggest advantage - length

bUT............I'd still be better off with a 10.5 or 11.5" with suppressor than I would a 14.5 or 16" and suppressor.

Welcome to AR15.com !

Posted: 1/26/2006 3:02:19 PM EDT

[#14]

Aside from the "5.45 is superior to 5.56" jibberish, this is a great topic.

I couldn't agree more with the "300m world" comment. For awhile I've been building up the motivation for a "RECCE", but I lost interest in it awhile ago due to the appeal of the SBR route. My upcoming AR will be a SBR.

Posted: 1/26/2006 3:53:55 PM EDT

[#15]

What abouy polygonal rifling on the SBR'd M4 barrels? Wouldn't that help with velocity?

Posted: 1/26/2006 3:54:39 PM EDT

[#16]

Taged

Posted: 1/26/2006 4:45:52 PM EDT

[#17]

I have yet to have a failure with a CQBR. I've logged just under 3000 rounds through them. It doesn't have a KFH and it functions excellent with or without suppressor, automatic or semi. I don't clean it religously, it does not get "GI'd", just wiped down and lightly lubed every other time out.

I have seen some with exceptional accuracy, some just average. The smallest group I have fired was one .28 inch hole on a 25 meter zero target, .057 ceter to center. I realize it's not comparable to shooting at 100, but it's still better than average. I would add a free float tube instead of the two piece if it was mine though.

The rate of fire on auto is very controllable without the suppressor. Slightly faster when using the can, but it also reduces felt recoil so it's still controllable.

Steel poppers at 200 are cake using an Acog. I can even get multiple hits with 5 to 7 round bursts.

Posted: 1/26/2006 5:03:50 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The new generation of subcarbines, such as those manufactured by Colt or Lewis Machine and Tool, as well as those M4’s modified by Crane, are generally quite reliable. They do sometimes require an O-ring to increase extractor tension, and a heavier buffer, such as the H or H2 buffer.

I know there were some contractors from Iraq and Afghanistan who didn't agree with your assessment of the LMT shorties and they were running them over there. They apparently had quite a few reliability issues though I didn't follow the debate long enough to see how it sorted out.

Apparently they didn't install a O-Ring and a H buffer. For the few contractors that had issues with their LMT 10.5" there are hundreds that are being used successfully by their peers. That is not including the LMT's that are issued to Naval Special Warfare and JSOC's Tier 1 Units.

My LMT Shorty has been 100%. You HAVE to have the Crane O-Ring and at least a H Buffer. It should be REQUIRED on any Shorty.

Posted: 1/26/2006 5:06:10 PM EDT

[#19]

beyond the shadow of a doubt that the AR10/AR15 system is quite capable of delivering rounds on target all the way to 1000 meters with the precision demanded by snipers.

Doesn't that 1000m AR15 system include an upper unlike normal-use uppers? as in: extra long/heavy, longer chamber, single feeds, or some such? If the upper is different enough, might as well have a separate long-range .308 ready to go without swappage. (or am I missing something?)

Posted: 1/26/2006 5:11:02 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
beyond the shadow of a doubt that the AR10/AR15 system is quite capable of delivering rounds on target all the way to 1000 meters with the precision demanded by snipers.

Doesn't that 1000m AR15 system include an upper unlike normal-use uppers? as in: extra long/heavy, longer chamber, single feeds, or some such? If the upper is different enough, might as well have a separate long-range .308 ready to go without swappage. (or am I missing something?)

Long heavy barrel, tight chamber with 80-90gr bullets single fed because they don't fit in the magazine. Its a competition rig only.

Posted: 1/26/2006 5:12:36 PM EDT

[#21]

Just out of curiosity, what did that article say about rifles with 4 Inch barrels?

Posted: 1/26/2006 5:59:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
beyond the shadow of a doubt that the AR10/AR15 system is quite capable of delivering rounds on target all the way to 1000 meters with the precision demanded by snipers.

Doesn't that 1000m AR15 system include an upper unlike normal-use uppers? as in: extra long/heavy, longer chamber, single feeds, or some such? If the upper is different enough, might as well have a separate long-range .308 ready to go without swappage. (or am I missing something?)

Long heavy barrel, tight chamber with 80-90gr bullets single fed because they don't fit in the magazine. Its a competition rig only.

If you necked down a 6.8SPC or 6.5 grendel case to .224cal, you could fit the 80-90, heck, even the 100gr 5.56mm bullets in the normal magazine. And they should go plenty fast too.

One of you is going to take this idea and run with it someday. Just send me a free upper

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:06:38 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Just out of curiosity, what did that article say about rifles with 4 Inch barrels?

M2 Corp receivers? Nothing.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:16:42 PM EDT

[#24]

Seth....nice piece. My 2 sen...about 0.5cents at the prevailing rate....

Subcarbines are working on the fringes of 5.56 fragmentation....so HPs like TAP are very desirable if you are goign to sue this calibre.

The obvious choice is to go up in the world to something like the 6.8SPC which is cranking out just under 2,400fps from a 10.5 incher using the SSA stuff. Remington has severely downloaded its current crop and that's not a good thing.

With 2,400 fps, you are getting fragmentation out to 150 yards(ish) from 10.5 and better terminals at all ranges.

Subcarbines are an argument FOR intermediate calibres.

Simon

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:22:38 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Just out of curiosity, what did that article say about rifles with 4 Inch barrels?

The shortest barrel that is somewhat practical in 5.56 is 7.5 inches. If you need that, you already know it and where to get it.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:23:50 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Seth....nice piece. My 2 sen...about 0.5cents at the prevailing rate....

Subcarbines are working on the fringes of 5.56 fragmentation....so HPs like TAP are very desirable if you are goign to sue this calibre.

The obvious choice is to go up in the world to something like the 6.8SPC which is cranking out just under 2,400fps from a 10.5 incher using the SSA stuff. Remington has severely downloaded its current crop and that's not a good thing.

With 2,400 fps, you are getting fragmentation out to 150 yards(ish) from 10.5 and better terminals at all ranges.

Subcarbines are an argument FOR intermediate calibres.

Simon

Simon, agreed on all counts. I just didn't write in in. Maybe one day I will expand on it, to include 6.8 and some of the other things pointed out.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:24:39 PM EDT

[#27]

"We live in a 300M world" is a quote that I heard from Patrick A. Rogers. Just so everyone knows where it comes from.

Edit for spelling. I'll suck the moose-cock for that one.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:33:11 PM EDT

[#28]

major taggage. Great first post.

Whats the ASU stand for?

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:38:40 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
major taggage. Great first post.

Whats the ASU stand for?

The initials of a liberal cesspool, and a major PERSEC violation.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:42:50 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
beyond the shadow of a doubt that the AR10/AR15 system is quite capable of delivering rounds on target all the way to 1000 meters with the precision demanded by snipers.

Doesn't that 1000m AR15 system include an upper unlike normal-use uppers? as in: extra long/heavy, longer chamber, single feeds, or some such? If the upper is different enough, might as well have a separate long-range .308 ready to go without swappage. (or am I missing something?)

Long heavy barrel, tight chamber with 80-90gr bullets single fed because they don't fit in the magazine. Its a competition rig only.

You two missed the point. The AR10, properly built with a good, floated barrel, will hang with an M24 or M40 all the way to the 1K mark, maybe even a bit farther.

The improvements developed by civilian HP shooters and military teams to make the AR15 competitive in HP directly led to the SDM-R and SAM-R. Those improvements can also be applied (and have been applied) to the AR10 almost seamlessly.

No, there is no 5.56 suitable for use at 1000 yards. But there is some 5.56 easily usable to 600 - 700 yards. And M118LR will do nicely from there on out of an AR10 or SR25.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:43:44 PM EDT

[#31]

I am a big advocate of 11.5"s over 14.5", particularly when equipped with the KFH. I do want to try one of MSTN's 7.5" rigs for indoor use, I think it might be just the ticket when combined with a Gemtech Predator or something similar.

We DO live in a 300m world. Past that, it's time to bring the sniper weapon systems to bear.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:46:47 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I am a big advocate of 11.5"s over 14.5", particularly when equipped with the KFH. I do want to try one of MSTN's 7.5" rigs for indoor use, I think it might be just the ticket when combined with a Gemtech Predator or something similar.

We DO live in a 300m world. Past that, it's time to bring the sniper weapon systems to bear.

It is unfortunate that Wes sold out of 7.5's before I realized how much I want one.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:47:11 PM EDT

[#33]

.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:49:58 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
beyond the shadow of a doubt that the AR10/AR15 system is quite capable of delivering rounds on target all the way to 1000 meters with the precision demanded by snipers.

Doesn't that 1000m AR15 system include an upper unlike normal-use uppers? as in: extra long/heavy, longer chamber, single feeds, or some such? If the upper is different enough, might as well have a separate long-range .308 ready to go without swappage. (or am I missing something?)

Long heavy barrel, tight chamber with 80-90gr bullets single fed because they don't fit in the magazine. Its a competition rig only.

You two missed the point. The AR10, properly built with a good, floated barrel, will hang with an M24 or M40 all the way to the 1K mark, maybe even a bit farther.

The improvements developed by civilian HP shooters and military teams to make the AR15 competitive in HP directly led to the SDM-R and SAM-R. Those improvements can also be applied (and have been applied) to the AR10 almost seamlessly.

No, there is no 5.56 suitable for use at 1000 yards. But there is some 5.56 easily usable to 600 - 700 yards. And M118LR will do nicely from there on out of an AR10 or SR25.

No sir, I freely admit that beyond 600 or 700m the 5.56 is a novelty. The SASS looks like a great idea to me.

Posted: 1/26/2006 6:59:12 PM EDT

[#35]

Man... I really wished I could post pictures

Posted: 1/26/2006 7:31:40 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Man... I really wished I could post pictures

What's stopping you?

Posted: 1/26/2006 7:32:18 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Man... I really wished I could post pictures hr

Of what?

Posted: 1/26/2006 11:32:58 PM EDT

[#38]

If you aren’t enlisted or highly skilled LEO you actually live in a 25 yard world. Everything after that is recreation and unjust use of deadly force. Spending time with members of local municipality SWAT in carbine classes and at the range has changed my thinking of what the right tools are for a civilian. My conclusions are:

20" 16" and 14.5" barrels are all too long for defensive weapons used in your average sized home, and are completely useless if you were carjacked or generally attacked or in harms way while in your car.

Trunk guns are useless because odds you'll never get to it in the event you are faced with a life endangering situation

Depending on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism is for fools. JHP or OTM heavy grain bullets are best for defense.

Magnification will be useless in most defensive encounters, but reflex and red dots give a real advantage in acquiring targets quickly. I stick with Irons though

Light barrels are better than heavy barrels for defensive situations.

As for 5.45 vs. 5.56, current heavy grain 5.56 bullets have all the advantages over 5.45. A case can be made for using 5.45 vs. M193 and M855 when fired from short barrels, but no way can 5.45 compete with current 5.56 technologies.

I'm a full believer in PDW's currently and will be gearing my "go to" guns to do their best work at 25" yards and in the tightest conditions. And when I say tight conditions I mean I should be able to shoulder and fire my weapon from inside a closet because some asshole is on the other side with a knife.

Trigger time with SIG SG552's and Vector Arms V-53 SBR’s have really changed my perception of what the right tools are for a civilian, and the way I've been training has indicated time and time again that PDW's and SBR's are the perfect defensive weapons for a civilian.

As for 100 yard, 300 yard and 600 yard shots, I enjoy those as well, but my real training sticks to 25 yard encounters. When I'm taking 500 yard shots I'm not usually considering the possibility of someone shooting back at the range. I just want the thing with antlers to fall down

Posted: 1/27/2006 12:19:59 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
If you aren’t enlisted or highly skilled LEO you actually live in a 25 yard world. Everything after that is recreation and unjust use of deadly force. Spending time with members of local municipality SWAT in carbine classes and at the range has changed my thinking of what the right tools are for a civilian. My conclusions are:

20" 16" and 14.5" barrels are all too long for defensive weapons used in your average sized home, and are completely useless if you were carjacked or generally attacked or in harms way while in your car.

Trunk guns are useless because odds you'll never get to it in the event you are faced with a life endangering situation

Depending on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism is for fools. JHP or OTM heavy grain bullets are best for defense.

Magnification will be useless in most defensive encounters, but reflex and red dots give a real advantage in acquiring targets quickly. I stick with Irons though

Light barrels are better than heavy barrels for defensive situations.

As for 5.45 vs. 5.56, current heavy grain 5.56 bullets have all the advantages over 5.45. A case can be made for using 5.45 vs. M193 and M855 when fired from short barrels, but no way can 5.45 compete with current 5.56 technologies.

I'm a full believer in PDW's currently and will be gearing my "go to" guns to do their best work at 25" yards and in the tightest conditions. And when I say tight conditions I mean I should be able to shoulder and fire my weapon from inside a closet because some asshole is on the other side with a knife.

Trigger time with SIG SG552's and Vector Arms V-53 SBR’s have really changed my perception of what the right tools are for a civilian, and the way I've been training has indicated time and time again that PDW's and SBR's are the perfect defensive weapons for a civilian.

As for 100 yard, 300 yard and 600 yard shots, I enjoy those as well, but my real training sticks to 25 yard encounters. When I'm taking 500 yard shots I'm not usually considering the possibility of someone shooting back at the range. I just want the thing with antlers to fall down

Maybe it's just the tequila talking, but good post.

Posted: 1/27/2006 12:51:17 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
<snip>

Maybe it's just the tequila talking, but good post.

I concur, good post. Makes me want to go SBR.

Posted: 1/27/2006 3:07:00 AM EDT

[#41]

Good thread.

Posted: 1/27/2006 4:13:11 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Man... I really wished I could post pictures

What's stopping you?

Dept of Homeland Security

I'm amazed no one has mentioned SBRs can be as much of a PITA as they are practical. There are more band-aid fixes for them than there are days in the week.
It gets frustrating when you go out on Saturday when it 35 degrees and it works great, but Monday when it 12 degrees it dont work at all. Open up the gas port to get it to work, then when it warms up, the bolt carrier bounces back from too much pressure....

AR15 SBRs are great, but they are made up of compromises to get them where you want them to be.

Posted: 1/27/2006 4:45:05 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
20" 16" and 14.5" barrels are all too long for defensive weapons used in your average sized home, and are completely useless if you were carjacked or generally attacked or in harms way while in your car.

I would argue that ANY long gun would be useless in a carjacking situation, since you wouldn't be able to access it and bring it to bear fast enough. Nevermind the potential need to manipulate it one-handed, while using the other hand to open a door, drive away or fend off a bodily assault. Pistols RULE in that environment, IMHO.

Trunk guns are useless because odds you'll never get to it in the event you are faced with a life endangering situation

Trunk guns exist so you can be armed on the walk home when your car breaks down.

Seriously, I've never heard of an incident where an armed citizen (as opposed to an LEO) has defended himself by accessing a long gun stowed in the trunk. Besides, I'm not real big on the idea of leaving ANY weapon in the car, out of my immediate control - I'd hate to give some scumbag car thief an easy two-fer.

I'm a full believer in PDW's currently and will be gearing my "go to" guns to do their best work at 25 yards and in the tightest conditions.

So you're changing all your defensive long guns over to SBRs and/or SBSs? What about the potential legal liability associated with using Title II weapons for self-defense? Does that concern you, or do you believe that "if it's a good shoot, the type of weapon won't be an issue"?

An interesting post, to be sure. Thanks!

Posted: 1/27/2006 4:45:42 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
"We live in a 300M world" is a quote that I heard from Patrick A. ~~Rodgers~~ Rogers.

Fixed it for ya.

Posted: 1/27/2006 5:14:07 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
So you're changing all your defensive long guns over to SBRs and/or SBSs? What about the potential legal liability associated with using Title II weapons for self-defense? Does that concern you, or do you believe that "if it's a good shoot, the type of weapon won't be an issue"?

An interesting post, to be sure. Thanks!

What legal liability. You either have the right to defend yourself or you don't. Your right isn't dependent on whether you use a SBR/SBS or a salad fork to gouge out their eyes.

Posted: 1/27/2006 5:19:18 AM EDT

[#46]

4 pages deep and no AR pr0n. Shame on you all. These babies can reach out and touch someone but the cost to build. yikes.

Mk12 clone.

Gold Member munyguru and his "target" rifle

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:03:25 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
20" 16" and 14.5" barrels are all too long for defensive weapons used in your average sized home,

I'd agree with the 20", but a 16"/14.5"+FS isn't bad. Next time you're at the range get 2 guys to stand next to each other facing downrange in a fighting stance, one with a handgun and one with a 16" carbine. You'll note the difference in length is minimal.

and are completely useless if you were carjacked or generally attacked or in harms way while in your car.

Agreed, but that is what handguns are for, or use that 4000lbs self-propelled batteing ram you are sitting in.

Trunk guns are useless because odds you'll never get to it in the event you are faced with a life endangering situation

Agreed, I can only think of one time when they were used (curiously enough they were employed beyond 25y), the situation was the TX tower shooting in the 60s.

Depending on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism is for fools. JHP or OTM heavy grain bullets are best for defense.

LOL - why do you think the Heavy OTMS are so effective? It's BECAUSE they fragment!

Magnification will be useless in most defensive encounters, but reflex and red dots give a real advantage in acquiring targets quickly. I stick with Irons though

Agreed about the magnification, but why stick with irons when you admit the red-dots give you an advantage?

Light barrels are better than heavy barrels for defensive situations.

Agreed!

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:06:42 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
I'm amazed no one has mentioned SBRs can be as much of a PITA as they are practical. There are more band-aid fixes for them than there are days in the week.
It gets frustrating when you go out on Saturday when it 35 degrees and it works great, but Monday when it 12 degrees it dont work at all. Open up the gas port to get it to work, then when it warms up, the bolt carrier bounces back from too much pressure....

AR15 SBRs are great, but they are made up of compromises to get them where you want them to be.

Isn't that why L-W came out with the Piston System?

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:15:08 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Agreed, I can only think of one time when they were used (curiously enough they were employed beyond 25y), the situation was the TX tower shooting in the 60s.

In that case they only provided suppressive fire, Charles Whitman was shot at close range.

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:16:33 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Isn't that why L-W came out with the Piston System?

I dont who came out with the the piston system, but the SBR is where it will SHINE. As soon as one is adopted and standardized by Uncle Sam, it will be THE way to go for a SBR.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why Short Barrels Make Sense (Page 2 of 6)

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