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Posted: 1/23/2006 10:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 12:38:54 AM EDT by Variablebinary]
Anyone know anything or ever build a DPMS kitty kat before. Call me crazy but I think PDW's are the future of defensive firearms. After playing with the PS90 even my 16" seems huge and less than ideal for a civilian defensive firearm.

So, the Kitty Kat...Durable, reliable, and accurate out to 100 yards? Info please and pics are appreciated

What about the M16 Clinic Viper? Anyone ever hear of it before?

Does anyone have a source for 7", 1/7 chrome, PDW barrels and free float tubes
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:50:03 PM EDT
Well, I will tell you this: PDWs chambered in .223/5.56 aren't the future of defensive firearms. You lose way too much with a barrel that short. Anyway, DPMS makes a pretty good product and I am sure the Kitty Kat is a good firearm. I have seen the uppers in person and they looked nice. Would I use it for a primary defensive weapon? No. Would it be fun as hell to own and shoot? Of course.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 12:32:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 12:34:43 AM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By Bushwacker85:
Well, I will tell you this: PDWs chambered in .223/5.56 aren't the future of defensive firearms. You lose way too much with a barrel that short. Anyway, DPMS makes a pretty good product and I am sure the Kitty Kat is a good firearm. I have seen the uppers in person and they looked nice. Would I use it for a primary defensive weapon? No. Would it be fun as hell to own and shoot? Of course.



I have to disagree. Almost every major arms maker offers a <10" barrel 5.56 sub-carbine, and more are popping up in either concept or production quite often. Several local SWAT units use the SIG 552, which they love showing off. I voiced a similar concern about velocity and barrel length. Their response (which was kinda assholeish but got the point across), "we dont shoot wolf or gun show white box specials"






Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:48:52 AM EDT
Just because gun companies are making them, doesnt mean they are effective.. All of them are intended for CQB range. None of them have been adopted by a major military in great numbers.



I would say to shoot one or two of them, then make a decision. The short ones I have fired (HK53, G36K, short M16, Galil SAR) are always loud as hell, and not very nice to shoot when compared to their full or mide size brothers.. .

Also, the muzzle velocity with such a short barrel might be on par with a P90 with 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:17:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 8:22:50 AM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Just because gun companies are making them, doesnt mean they are effective.. All of them are intended for CQB range. None of them have been adopted by a major military in great numbers.



I would say to shoot one or two of them, then make a decision. The short ones I have fired (HK53, G36K, short M16, Galil SAR) are always loud as hell, and not very nice to shoot when compared to their full or mide size brothers.. .

Also, the muzzle velocity with such a short barrel might be on par with a P90 with 16" barrel.



Yeah but then I figured out I wasnt in the military, and newer bullet design arent as velocity dependent. PDW's are compact and can be carried more places without freaking people out. Trunk gun? Think you're going to be able to get to your trunk in an emergency....

Actually I'm bullshitting, I just want one. I dont really have a reason other than wanting a PDW, and I dont want to spend money on a PS90. Already have three 16" and two 20"



Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:23:13 AM EDT
My SBR:



Model 1 upper, 7.5" chrome-lined barrel. Suprisingly accurate.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:28:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 1:59:28 PM EDT by Brettb19]
to put the size in perpesctive for some of you... A Colt 6921 with a 10.5" upper(edit to add... with a Noveske FH) is ~1/8 to 1/4" longer than a ps-90 with a 16" barrel. Sbr the Ps-90 down to the 10.3" barrel it is supposed to have and the size difference is amazing.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:33:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
My SBR:

www.hunt101.com/img/320605.JPG

Model 1 upper, 7.5" chrome-lined barrel. Suprisingly accurate.



Very cool. That is exactly what I had in mind
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:38:10 PM EDT
SBRs have their place, mostly at CQB distances and with SP/HP ammo. Personally, I wouldn't want to go with anything under 10" for a 5.56mm, and that would be for a suppressed home defense weapon to be used indoors.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:18:07 PM EDT
Is it the Form 1 I need to make an SBR? I'm going to turn my RRA Ent. Tact. into a PDW...
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:22:23 PM EDT

Just throw lots-o-lead at 'em... at 850 r.p.m.!!
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 1:10:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/135KK_C-MAGb-med.jpg
Just throw lots-o-lead at 'em... at 850 r.p.m.!!





damn! that is EVIL!

very cool!
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 8:16:43 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/135KK_C-MAGb-med.jpg
Just throw lots-o-lead at 'em... at 850 r.p.m.!!




Holy hell. That is the liberal anti-christ it's so freaking scary
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:20:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 4:31:38 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:44:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
The rifle is only one component in a two component system. An SBR under 10-11" is poorly suited for 5.56 ammo, both in terms of terminal performance and blast/noise. This can be partially mitigated by using ammo designed to overcome the terminal ballistics part, like 70gr+ TAP or other expensive specialty ammo. A suppressor will reduce blast/noise.

I built a 11.5 AR pistol for use as an emergency carbine/PDW, but that's exactly what it is, an emergency arm to fight my way to my 16" rifle.

Here's my thread Emergency Carbine

The P90 and its ammo are a MATCHED PAIR, and designed for a particular purpose: a PDW to defeat body armor at close or intermediate range. The gun and ammo are designed from the ground up to complement each other. Most 5.56 ammo is not designed to be effectively used out of a barrel less than 16 inches, both in terms of lethality and blast. 5.56 in any flavor is a rifle round, meant to be used in a rifle barrel.



WOW, that is an awesome thread. I'm almost done building my 10.5" pistol, wish I had read that before I started the build, might have done a few things different.


Thank you.

Gene
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:14:18 AM EDT
Re: the M16 Viper........

I have read about it extensively via a link on Blackwater's Newsletter. It looks to be a solid M16 shorty and sure to have its customers.

However, unless something really big changes, I wont be getting one, so hate to get my hopes up.

If the video they offer is any indication it is an awesome shooter!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:17:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 2:20:14 AM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By MRW:
The rifle is only one component in a two component system. An SBR under 10-11" is poorly suited for 5.56 ammo, both in terms of terminal performance and blast/noise. This can be partially mitigated by using ammo designed to overcome the terminal ballistics part, like 70gr+ TAP or other expensive specialty ammo. A suppressor will reduce blast/noise.

I built a 11.5 AR pistol for use as an emergency carbine/PDW, but that's exactly what it is, an emergency arm to fight my way to my 16" rifle.

Here's my thread Emergency Carbine

The P90 and its ammo are a MATCHED PAIR, and designed for a particular purpose: a PDW to defeat body armor at close or intermediate range. The gun and ammo are designed from the ground up to complement each other. Most 5.56 ammo is not designed to be effectively used out of a barrel less than 16 inches, both in terms of lethality and blast. 5.56 in any flavor is a rifle round, meant to be used in a rifle barrel.



So if you were shot in the chest twice with a 75gr TAP from a 11.5" barrel vs a 16" at 50 feet what would happen? I'm just curious. Bounce off? Flesh wound? You laugh? I'd like to know.

Does being shot in the face by 5.56 from a 7" PDW barrel just mean you dont need to shave one cheek the next morning? Since it isnt effective you can shake that stuff off right?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:19:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:30:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
don't be an ass and try to provoke with a straw man argument.

and Gene, you're welcome. I'm now experimenting with red dots on top of the carry handle. it will really aid in sight aquisition. But I can whack a 6" gong at 100 yards all day long if I take my time and use the small aperture.



Your retort is a concession. This isn’t 1980 and we aren’t stuck with m193, m855 or the 2700fps rule. If I plug you with defensive ammo at civilian defensive range there will be lots of screaming and bleeding and I promise you'll hating life.


Most 5.56 ammo is not designed to be effectively used out of a barrel less than 16 inches, both in terms of lethality and blast. 5.56 in any flavor is a rifle round, meant to be used in a rifle barrel.



All those poor soldiers and their M4A1's. So ineffective with their 14.5" barrels
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:36:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:



That's neat, now if they had only used a C7 upper instead of the A2. (like a 7" AR needs an 800 sight )
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 11:40:54 AM EDT
It's fun to shoot; not sure I'd consider mine any more than a toy.

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:45:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:49:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:57:58 PM EDT
Taggage.

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:59:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 1:00:26 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
45yds and under you would be having a bad day to get hit with 5.56 ammo from 7.5-20" barrels in the chest or head. Period.

45yds is quite a distance when, as a civilian, I can choose to run away -- or I can choose to fight.

More importantly, if the weapon is easy to deploy while moving in a car/SUV/BOV it's a HUGE plus IMO.

While it's not ideal, shooting someone with a failure drill from a 7.5" M16 or a P90 isn't going to leave them feeling any better.

All I need is TIME to get the F out of dodge.

I say that a super short carbine is like any other tool. Use it when it's appropriate. As with the MP5 PDW, you might have a tactical advantage if trained to deploy it from concealment quickly and accurately.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:02:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 1:04:09 PM EDT by jvicent]
I tested the DPMS Kitty Kat 7 inch upper for use in Iraq as a PSD primary weapon. The test wasn't for terminal ballistics, but rather, for reliability. With the double heavy buffer, the weapon cycled no problem at all. I tested it dry, wet, dirty, sandy, and a few other conditions.

It was loud, but a Krinkov flash hider would solve a lot of that. At 7', all but 1/2 inch of the factory bird cage was covered by carbine length handguards.

That setup would knock down our MGM steel at 75 meters. A P90 will not do that. A P90 doesn't give you the ability to change uppers and make headshots at 400 meters either. As a PDW, I think the KittyKat will work very well.

Obviously the rapdily depleting velocity will lessen chances of reliable fragmentation at ranges beyond 75 meters or so, but the weapon would still do the job. Add TAP and other soft pointed rounds and I could see it being very effective.

If you do go with DPMS, tell Joe C. that I sent you please. We use their LR-308's here and they work wonderfully. They sell all the components you need to create your own Kitty Kat, at quite a bit less than the 1200 - 1600 you'll pay for the Viper.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:05:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:58:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Wes Grant (MSTN) had some 7.5" uppers that he was selling - IMHO that woudl be a much more reliable option that the DPMS Kitty Kat -- I've played with 10 different ones of those and NONE ran well without some tweaking (like redrilling the gas port...)




I have one of those 7.5 bbl's from Wes and it runs like a top, including shat like Wolf. (I can't believe I just admitted that) I put a Krink on mine, you NEED it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:37:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:44:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:59:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 5:59:33 PM EDT by watersniper]

Originally Posted By MRW:
Where to get a krink brake? I'm seriously thinking about replacing the phantom on mine, which, BTW, almost elliminates flash from even the 11.5 barrel!

but blast is another matter



Got mine from ADCO! They Guncoated it flat dark earth too.



Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:43:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 3:09:34 AM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:59:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By watersniper:

Originally Posted By MRW:
Where to get a krink brake? I'm seriously thinking about replacing the phantom on mine, which, BTW, almost elliminates flash from even the 11.5 barrel!

but blast is another matter



Got mine from ADCO! They Guncoated it flat dark earth too.

img359.imageshack.us/img359/6493/75upper01a1qp.jpg




who makes that front sight
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:50:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HunterGren:

Originally Posted By watersniper:

Originally Posted By MRW:
Where to get a krink brake? I'm seriously thinking about replacing the phantom on mine, which, BTW, almost elliminates flash from even the 11.5 barrel!

but blast is another matter



Got mine from ADCO! They Guncoated it flat dark earth too.

img359.imageshack.us/img359/6493/75upper01a1qp.jpg</a>




who makes that front sight



PRI ?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 5:55:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 5:56:11 AM EDT by billclo]
If you can afford the tax stamp, why not just go short barrelled UZI? Or a Greasegun in .45 ACP? More punch at close range, I'd bet, than a greatly slowed down 5.56 at close range. And more compact.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 7:25:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:55:14 AM EDT
5.56 has a chance against soft armor.

9mm and .45acp have little or no chance.

A .224" hole is better than a .354" dent.

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