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Posted: 1/23/2006 9:12:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 9:24:43 AM EDT by 97widerider]
Don't worry this isn't another 4140 vs 4150 thread. I understand the 4150 is a better barrel able to withstand more rounds at a faster rate. But I have specific questions. In what civilian applications would a 4140 metal barrel not be good enough? Burining through seveal mags as quick as you can pull the trigger on a semi? Would a select fire weapon be good for a few mags? Everyone says the difference in 4140 and 4150 is a moot point because most civilians or police would never use a 4150 barrel to it's full potential. Just curious to what anyone thinks.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:39:21 AM EDT
Why not have the better of the two, if it just requires careful selection of the manufacturer.

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:40:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 9:40:57 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]
i prefer to have the best for my money especially when its only a slight difference in cost
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:42:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i prefer to have the best for my money especially when its only a slight difference in cost




+1 on that, that's why I choose Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:45:14 AM EDT
4150 is required for civilian use of more than 87 rounds of continuous bump firing!
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 9:52:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
4150 is required for civilian use of more than 87 rounds of continuous bump firing!



What would happen if you ventured over that? Does it deminish the accuracy? Shorten the life of the barrel? What exactly happens?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:04:29 AM EDT
More than 87 rds and the universe explodes.

Kidding, you can wear the throat area at a more rapid rate when the bbl is very hot. If it is too hot the bbl will droop and fail. You can also get cook offs if the chamber is too hot. The gas tube can droop and fail if over heated (yes, that is not have to do with bbl steel). You can fire many many rounds without a problem wiht a standard m4 bbl. You will have a hard time heating it to failure.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:05:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 97widerider:

Originally Posted By demigod:
4150 is required for civilian use of more than 87 rounds of continuous bump firing!



What would happen if you ventured over that? Does it deminish the accuracy? Shorten the life of the barrel? What exactly happens?





87 is a magic number that only non-noobs are aware of. Just get 4150 if you have the choice....if not you probably won't wear out 4140 unless you shoot 10k+ rounds......
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:21:11 AM EDT
yea dude, 87 is just some ramdom number demigod made up, some kinda inside joke, I don't know what it means but i do know that 4140 is good MUCH past that. Think 1000s of rounds.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:26:00 AM EDT
I thought he was just pulling the results of some test or something. But I thought 87 was an odd number to quote. Anyways, why don't all manufacturers use 4150 steel? Is it that much cheaper to use 4140? Do they think civs and police just don't need it so why offer it. It seems RRA or Armalite or DPMS for example puts more into their heavy barrel profiles over what they would had they used 4150 steel.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:32:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CYBIN:
yea dude, 87 is just some ramdom number demigod made up



I didn't make it up. I just live in harmony with the magic power of 87!
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:37:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 97widerider:
I thought he was just pulling the results of some test or something. But I thought 87 was an odd number to quote. Anyways, why don't all manufacturers use 4150 steel? Is it that much cheaper to use 4140? Do they think civs and police just don't need it so why offer it. It seems RRA or Armalite or DPMS for example puts more into their heavy barrel profiles over what they would had they used 4150 steel.


Why would you use an harder and more difficult to work steel, when no proven study showed differences in civilian use?
Why stop at 4150 then? Why not something even harder?
The thing is, you have to choose the steel that does the job the rifle is targeted to, w/out falling in the harder-is-better trap.
This is why many of the barrel manufacturers still use 4140. Because it does the job it's supposed to do, and keeps costs under control.
If there are published studies that prove that 4140 is less performing than 4150 for civilian use, please post links since I'm really willing to be educated ...


- Ice
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:48:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 10:48:50 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By 97widerider:
Don't worry this isn't another 4140 vs 4150 thread. I understand the 4150 is a better barrel able to withstand more rounds at a faster rate. But I have specific questions. In what civilian applications would a 4140 metal barrel not be good enough? Burining through seveal mags as quick as you can pull the trigger on a semi? Would a select fire weapon be good for a few mags? Everyone says the difference in 4140 and 4150 is a moot point because most civilians or police would never use a 4150 barrel to it's full potential. Just curious to what anyone thinks.



I'll answer your question, hopefully directly.

4140 would be good enough for 99.9% of civilian shooting. I have seen 9 mags dumped through a 4140 barrel, with no immediate ill effects on the barrel. The handguards were toast, but the barrel seems fine.

The only thing I could think of, as a civilian, that might hurt it would be purposely abusing the weapon on full auto, to the point at which your gas tube melted, and your rounds were self detonating in the chamber due to the heat buildup.

Other than abuse, I can't think of a single situation that 4140 might not be good enough.

That being said, I have only 4150 5.56 barrels. Why? It's a little hard to find top quality barrels in 1:7 twist made in 4140. That's the only reason. Honestly. The reason I prefer 1:7? They are proven to stabilize the longer and heavier 75gr and 77gr ammo -- and all my 5.56 barrels are under 15".

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:13:10 AM EDT
Get a Stainless Steel barrel.

Joe
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:24:54 AM EDT
Theoretically? Possibly a semi belt fed and a LONG belt fired without a break. With chrome lining, I doubt 4140 vs 4150 matters one bit.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:29:33 AM EDT
Great responses guys, thanks. The reason I ask is because I just bought an AR with 4140 steel. Guess what manufactuerer it ISNT? I guess I was second guessing my purchase by even asking. Its like anything else you buy, you want to know it is there if you need it even though most likely you will never need it unless your dogging it. When I get out on the range I like to fire off a few mags with rapid fire. Not bump firing just rapid firing. I just want to make sure I am not pushing the envelope on it's performance abilities. I would be curious to any testing as to what its limitations are though.

LONG LIVE 87.]
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:30:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i prefer to have the best for my money especially when its only a slight difference in cost




+1 on that, that's why I choose Bushmaster.



+2
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:43:49 PM EDT
If you're worried about the heat damage properties between 4140 and 4150, I hope you have a ceramic gas tube and nomex hands.

If you're worried about throat erosion and over all wear, get chrome lined. Chrome lining isn't there just to make cleaning easier.

I'd rather have 4150, but people blow the differences way out of proportion.

As for the 87 comments, that shit got old along time ago. Quit trolling or atleast come up with something new and original.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:52:47 PM EDT
Alright. So chrome lining makes up for some of the "deficiencies" in the 4140 barrel?

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:33:37 PM EDT
To a certain extent, yes. Chrome lining is a very hard and strong surface finish applied to the bore of the barrel. So while it won't boost the structural strength of your barrel, the chrome will have to wear away before it starts doing severe damage to natural steel bore.

While chrome lining can be a plus, it's still just a fraction of what makes a good barrel.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:48:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
4140 would be good enough for 99.9% of civilian shooting. I have seen 9 mags dumped through a 4140 barrel, with no immediate ill effects on the barrel. The handguards were toast, but the barrel seems fine.



Shivan is correct. I've seen unlined DPMS 4140 barrels that were subjected to 210rds full auto, allowed to cool to ambient temperature and then fired for another 210rds, rinse,wash, repeat... while there were several barrel failures as a result of the heavy use, I think the earliest one was at 4,500 rounds or so.

So if the worst case is you can get about 21 210rd full-auto runs out of barrel where you are heating it up past 600F on every single run, then 4140 is going to do well enough for just about any conceivable civilian use.

Like a lot of people here though, I go with 4150 when I have the option, just because I can.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:56:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 1:57:06 PM EDT by HotIce]

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Shivan is correct. I've seen unlined DPMS 4140 barrels that were subjected to 210rds full auto, allowed to cool to ambient temperature and then fired for another 210rds, rinse,wash, repeat... while there were several barrel failures as a result of the heavy use, I think the earliest one was at 4,500 rounds or so.
So if the worst case is you can get about 21 210rd full-auto runs out of barrel where you are heating it up past 600F on every single run, then 4140 is going to do well enough for just about any conceivable civilian use.


As a conclusion, we can say that if you do not plan to play the Val Kilmer part in the "Heat 2" movie, you should be pretty fine with a 4140 barrel


- Ice
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 2:11:42 PM EDT
Denny already proved that 4140 can hang. Check the archive for 4140 barrels tested to destruction. Lets not forget that 4140 RRA barrels survived harsh DEA testing without issue.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:32:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 97widerider:
Alright. So chrome lining makes up for some of the "deficiencies" in the 4140 barrel?




It covers the deficiencies in 4150 also.

Seriously, if you are worried, get a chromelined barrel and dont stress about 4140 vs 4150. It will take you years of heavy shooting to wear either one out.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:22:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i prefer to have the best for my money especially when its only a slight difference in cost




+1 on that, that's why I choose Bushmaster.



An Thats why I purchase mil-spec COLT, and drink Cool-Aid when thirsty...
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:33:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By CYBIN:
yea dude, 87 is just some ramdom number demigod made up



I didn't make it up. I just live in harmony with the magic power of 87!



+87

Honestly, if you only have a semi-auto, I don't see a difference between 4140 and 4150. It's just cooler to have 4150 because it's the "best" and it's "mil-spec." Hell, even when you are on full auto 4140 does pretty good. Anyone remember when someone here put what? 20,000 rounds through barrels before they blew? Those were 4140 DPMS barrels, and NOT chrome lined.
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