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Posted: 1/22/2006 2:51:18 PM EDT
Just ordered a wolff xp spring to fix my problems and they say to use a "colt BLACK insert", mine is blue. What's the difference?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:04:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 3:04:19 PM EDT by M4Madness]
It doesn't matter what color insert you use in a Wolff extractor spring -- some don't even use an insert at all. That said, I use one of the really old red ones in mine with no problems whatsoever.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:07:53 PM EDT
thanks
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:40:18 PM EDT
Color signifies years used and power of spring with the black one otherwise they are all the same.The first ones I beleive were white.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:30:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:07:10 PM EDT
where did you get your wolf springs from?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:12:33 PM EDT
Brownells has the black inserts...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:15:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:15:40 PM EDT by mongo001]
I use Wolff by itself without issue. IMO, the insert does nothing.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:20:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Colt black inserts are stronger than blue.




I have to agree... The black rubber inserts are made of a more dense, stiffer rubber than the blue ones... The inserts act like a buffer, hence the name "extractor spring buffer"... The stiffer insert helps to prevent premature spring failure and also helps stabilize the spring from moving when pressure is applied to it...

I hope I just didn't find my way into a shit storm by saying that... Oh well, let it fly guys...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:22:07 PM EDT
Sunday, January 22, 2006

Hi Guys:

There is a color code for the Ejector Insert!

Green Color: Commando (10.5-inch barrel)

Black Color: Carbine Use (14.5-inch barrel)

Blue Color: Rifle Use (20 inch barrel or longer)

DO NOT INTERCHANGE THEM! (Source: Specialized Armament & Colt Law Enforcement Armor’s Manual)

Take Care…

MP5 Machinenpistole
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:22:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I use Wolff by itself without issue. IMO, the insert does nothing.



I agree, those WOLF springs are pretty stiff, I cant see any benefit from using a rubber insert with it... They seem to be stable and hold up OK on their own...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:34:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I use Wolff by itself without issue. IMO, the insert does nothing.



I agree, those WOLF springs are pretty stiff, I cant see any benefit from using a rubber insert with it... They seem to be stable and hold up OK on their own...



I'm a simple man. Look at it this way: Take a Wolff spring and squeeze it between your thumb and forefinger. Stiff, isn't it? Now take any color insert and squeeze it between your thumb and forefinger. Somewhat mushy, isn't it? Now how much work, in the whole equation, do you think that insert is doing?

Ya, I saw the water glass balanced on different colored inserts, and the black are a tad stiffer than the blue, but think of the whole, big picture. How much of the work is that insert doing, regardless of the color? IMO, very little to none.

Some claim ejector bounce. I claim hogwash. Maybe late in a springs life, it may help, but if that insert's been in the spring the whole time, it's fatigued and degraded also, so I still call hogwash.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:16:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I use Wolff by itself without issue. IMO, the insert does nothing.



I agree, those WOLF springs are pretty stiff, I cant see any benefit from using a rubber insert with it... They seem to be stable and hold up OK on their own...



I'm a simple man. Look at it this way: Take a Wolff spring and squeeze it between your thumb and forefinger. Stiff, isn't it? Now take any color insert and squeeze it between your thumb and forefinger. Somewhat mushy, isn't it? Now how much work, in the whole equation, do you think that insert is doing?

Ya, I saw the water glass balanced on different colored inserts, and the black are a tad stiffer than the blue, but think of the whole, big picture. How much of the work is that insert doing, regardless of the color? IMO, very little to none.

Some claim ejector bounce. I claim hogwash. Maybe late in a springs life, it may help, but if that insert's been in the spring the whole time, it's fatigued and degraded also, so I still call hogwash.

YMMV.



I'm picking up what your laying down...

I agree, WOLF springs wouldn't benefit from an insert, but I honestly do believe the standard type springs can...

Ive noticed a difference when using an 'O' ring with a standard spring with the blue insert... The 'O' ring seems to be a dense stiff rubber compared to a plain ordinary softer blue rubber insert... I sort of compare the 'O' ring to the rubber black insert, they seem to be made from the same type of material...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:45:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:
Sunday, January 22, 2006

Hi Guys:

There is a color code for the Ejector Insert!

Green Color: Commando (10.5-inch barrel)

Black Color: Carbine Use (14.5-inch barrel)

Blue Color: Rifle Use (20 inch barrel or longer)

DO NOT INTERCHANGE THEM! (Source: Specialized Armament & Colt Law Enforcement Armor’s Manual)

Take Care…

MP5 Machinenpistole



Dude, what color would you use for a 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 9:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 9:10:14 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By TomHighway:

Dude, what color would you use for a 16" barrel?



Specialized Armament & Colt Law Enforcement Armorers Manual list military spec barrels, 16" is civilian length... That's why it isn't listed...

Those listed are basically color codes used to identify the strength of the spring and what I believe to also indicate the density of rubber used for the insert... It seems to me that the black inserts are made of a different type of material, more solid than the blue ones... I wish I had a green one to compare to the others...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:23:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 10:25:54 PM EDT by scottryan]


Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:52:41 PM EDT
I dont have inserts in some of my ARs...They operate without them just fine...YMMV
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:14:36 AM EDT
Would it safe to say the insert acts like a shock on a car using coil springs?

Kind of hard to compres a cars coil spring, but real easy to close a shock.

bad shocks you have a bouncing car ride. Good shocks your car does not bounce.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:59:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:
Green Color: Commando (10.5-inch barrel)

Black Color: Carbine Use (14.5-inch barrel)

Blue Color: Rifle Use (20 inch barrel or longer)



Very sexual. Very interesting thread too. If you purchased a brand new Carbine and it has a blue insert that's cutting corners IMHO. We all know how hard the carbine length gas system is on the extractor so a stiff spring and a black insert should come standard. If you really want some insurance add a D-Fender.

$0.02
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:59:55 AM EDT
Both rifles I have were made after 1998 and they have a black insert.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:10:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:
Sunday, January 22, 2006

Hi Guys:

There is a color code for the Ejector Insert!

Green Color: Commando (10.5-inch barrel)

Black Color: Carbine Use (14.5-inch barrel)

Blue Color: Rifle Use (20 inch barrel or longer)

DO NOT INTERCHANGE THEM! (Source: Specialized Armament & Colt Law Enforcement Armor’s Manual)

Take Care…

MP5 Machinenpistole



That appears to be what Ken recomends, as opposed to what Colt's/FN DOD weapons use. Never heard of a green one for example. And I don't think the blue ones are in use anymore. My M16A4 upper has a black buffer, as does my 1995 RO921/M4A1 upper.

And for more useless trivia, there was no extractor buffer until the 1971-76 time frame. Have not got it pegged down to the year yet. Prior to this the extractor spring had an extra coil, was much longer, and stronger.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:20:26 AM EDT
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:23:38 AM EDT
It would go like this.

Blue: Mid 80's to mid 90's

Black: mid 90's to today on rifles

Black: mid 90's to today on carbines with the changeover to the heavier carbine spring in 2003.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:28:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
It would go like this.

Blue: Mid 80's to mid 90's

Black: mid 90's to today on rifles

Black: mid 90's to today on carbines with the changeover to the heavier carbine spring in 2003.



Do you have any info relating to the early white inserts?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:36:27 AM EDT
Those would be the first ones from late 60's/early 70's.

The red was late 70's/mid 80's.

Before the white, there was the four coil type used without an insert.


Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:48:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 8:03:41 AM EDT by Ekie]
That is correct, the white was the first buffer in use. Still trying to pin it down, got it down to 71-76. I just went through a Colt's M16A1 in the 4.8 million range, and it had the old long spring in it. It has a C MP B marked barrel, one of the first with the chrome bore. I don't think this rifle could date prior to 1970.

ETA, and my 1976 SP1 had a white buffer in it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:36:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?



The lip on the ejector will wear out and can cause FTEX problems when it does, even with otherwise healthy parts.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 12:49:17 PM EDT by JackalAR]
I got two CMT bolts recently...one MP checked, and both bolts had the blue insert. I have a mid-length gas system and I added a D-Fender, which is designed to work with the blue insert. Why is it new bolts, especially from a company known for such high quality, are still coming out with blue inserts if they're dated? I'm thinking it's more like what MP5MachinePistole said...different inserts for different barrels / gas systems.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:44:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
I got two CMT bolts recently...one MP checked, and both bolts had the blue insert. I have a mid-length gas system and I added a D-Fender, which is designed to work with the blue insert. Why is it new bolts, especially from a company known for such high quality, still coming out with blue inserts if they're dated? I'm thinking it's more like what MP5MachinePistole said...different inserts for different barrels / gas systems.



The information I posted was in regards to USGI stuff. Don't apply to others. Just trivia.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:10:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 1:18:27 PM EDT by j3_]

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?



The lip on the ejector will wear out and can cause FTEX problems when it does, even with otherwise healthy parts.



? What lip?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 2:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 2:20:25 PM EDT by redfisher]
I Google'd "lip" and this is what I got.





But when I used "AR15 extractor" I got this



Probably the far-right end


and the aforementioned "blue insert"

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:43:51 PM EDT
sorry 1179, been away from the computer,got it from gunsprings.com
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:47:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By j3_:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?



The lip on the ejector will wear out and can cause FTEX problems when it does, even with otherwise healthy parts.



? What lip?



Whatever you want to call it, the part of the extractor that catches the brass. When that is no longer sharp (becomes rounded from use), it can "roll" off the brass, leaving the spent brass in the chamber.

Good thing we have spelling, grammar and technical police around here.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:50:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 1:52:02 PM EDT by j3_]

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By j3_:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?



The lip on the ejector will wear out and can cause FTEX problems when it does, even with otherwise healthy parts.



? What lip?



Whatever you want to call it, the part of the extractor that catches the brass. When that is no longer sharp (becomes rounded from use), it can "roll" off the brass, leaving the spent brass in the chamber.

Good thing we have spelling, grammar and technical police around here.



There is a big difference between the ejector and extractor and their function. Not talking about calling it the lip. Just wanting to note the difference between the two parts. As far as spelling and grammar I went to school in Georgia and I am not sure we had those classes.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:54:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 1:56:36 PM EDT by BeetleBailey]
No, I mean ejector - not exractor. Reason I ask it it is common practice to remove the extractor when deep cleaning the bolt, but not the ejector. So, I guess in essence I am wondering what the life span of an ejector/ejector spring is, and if they even offer any aftermarket enhancement parts for it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
No, I mean ejector - not exractor. Reason I ask it it is common practice to remove the extractor when deep cleaning the bolt, but not the ejector. So, I guess in essence I am wondering what the life span of an ejector/ejector spring is, and if they even offer any aftermarket enhancement parts for it.



Proly cause the ejector is hard to remove and install without a special tool. Not sure if there are special aftermarket springs for this and not sure of life expectancy either. I just don't mess with them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:57:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

And for more useless trivia, there was no extractor buffer until the 1971-76 time frame. Have not got it pegged down to the year yet. Prior to this the extractor spring had an extra coil, was much longer, and stronger.



I found a citation for a Rock Island report from Oct 1972 titled "New and Improved Rubber Compounds for Weapon Systems."

From the summary: "Newly developed fluorosilicone rubber inserts significantly increased the service life of the M16A1 rifle extractor springs."
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:47:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:

Originally Posted By Ekie:

And for more useless trivia, there was no extractor buffer until the 1971-76 time frame. Have not got it pegged down to the year yet. Prior to this the extractor spring had an extra coil, was much longer, and stronger.



I found a citation for a Rock Island report from Oct 1972 titled "New and Improved Rubber Compounds for Weapon Systems."

From the summary: "Newly developed fluorosilicone rubber inserts significantly increased the service life of the M16A1 rifle extractor springs."



More trivia, great stuff thanks.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:19:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 5:22:22 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
what about your ejector. Do they ever go out?



The lip on the ejector will wear out and can cause FTEX problems when it does, even with otherwise healthy parts.



Yup.
After thousands of rounds the tip does tend to mush when compared to a brand new ejector.
I noticed 1 of my carbines(Bushy M4gery w/30,000 rds+ thru) was still functioning great
but the casings were only being thrown a foot. I removed the ejector(remove the pin from the bolt Assy.
in a plastic bag because those ejectors/spring Can and will launch never to be seen again),
noticed the lip was slightly mushroomed and the Spring was snapped in half. Just for the heck of it,
I dissassembled the ejector on another carbine(RRA) with only maybe 2000 rds. on it and it's spring was
also snapped in half.

It's a good idea to keep a couple ejectors and ejector springs(cheap insurance), a punch set and
a plastic bag handy just incase
You notice your AR is not throwing 'em out as far as it used to.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:39:37 AM EDT
There is a stronger ejector spring that comes with the SOPMOD reliability kit. Never did figure out what it was though.

To remove the ejector with my left hand I press the face of the bolt into my work bench and hold the punch. This both compress the spring so the ejector is not bound up against the roll pin, and keeps the whole assembly captive so it don't go flying. With my right hand I knock the roll pin out with a hammer. Then you slowly lift the bolt up from the bench so the spring loaded ejector is not lost.

Reassembly is the reverse, except I start the pin prior to putting the spring and ejector in the bolt, and I drive the roll pin with just a brass hammer. Once the roll pin holds the ejector in place I seat the roll pin with a punch and hammer while the bolt lies on it's side on the bench.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:16:09 AM EDT
I agree with Mongo. I do not use the insert with my Wolff XP springs either.

My CMT/Stag bolt came with a blue soft mushy insert, while my RRA bolt came with a smaller but very hard black insert. I took both out and threw it into a baggy, and replaced the springs with the Wolff springs.

The CMT/Stag extractor spring had the same # of coils as the Wolff, but with a smaller wire diameter (lower spring rate). The RRA spring had 1 less coil and was of the same diameter as the CMT spring. Both springs had the ends ground off, while the Wolff springs were normal coil springs.

I believe the TM states to use CLP and put a few drops into the ejector channel, and to work the ejector a few times during cleaning.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:33:27 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:55:36 AM EDT
Good info. Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:15:20 AM EDT
anyone use a wolf extra power extractor spring with an o-ring or defender?
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