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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CMT upper *finish problems* **NEW PIC PAGE 5** (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 1/6/2006 7:33:03 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I too took the thread as a "Is this normal post" not as a bashing post.

I am interested in getting an upper and I am trying to figure out who to go with so this is helpful.

The barrel threads look like it was scratched off.
The CH looks like normal wear after a few dozen to hundred chargings, not one or two during testing. If you are waering to aluminum with one or two, how will it look after a few hundred or even a thousand???
If the anodizing layer comes off with your fingernail then it is definately F-ed up and you need to contact your dealer. thanks for agreeing

Anodizing layer should wear over time, it shouldn't chip or flake off..........That being said, I haven't seen one anodized part chip or flake, as true anodizing is an inegral part of the base metal. It is an electro-chemical process that is formed from the base material

This upper is a UNFIRED upper, I have not even put a Barrel nut on it yet, the above statement is exactly what I am saying about ANODIZING. And YES I am WORRIED about premature failure in the finish THATS ALL...

I will contact Denny today and see what he thinks....

Could a moderator transfer this entire post over to Industry section?

Posted: 1/6/2006 7:50:42 AM EDT

[#2]

To the original poster: I also have the same problem with my brand new CMT M4 upper. After installing my EOTech. I noticed the finish wearing off the high spots of the rail. Not normal to say the least. I contacted the dealer I got it from, and they are replacing it. He said he has not seen this happen on a CMT upper before.

And to everyone else, it really is appalling how someone gets jumped all over for asking if there is a problem with his brand new part he paid good money for. For gods sake, you folks wouldn't be worried if you bought a brand new Lambo and the paint started flaking off while pulling out of the dealership? Come on.

Scratches/wear are fine, but finish on a reciever chipping/flaking off before the weapon is even fired is freaking abnormal. Lighten up folks.....this is a place for help and discussion.

Posted: 1/6/2006 7:52:32 AM EDT

[#3]

Edited my comments because I wouldn't want to offend those who buy their weapons to hang on a wall.

Posted: 1/6/2006 7:59:29 AM EDT

[#4]

What does a $90 dollar gun part have to do with a $200,000 car?

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:09:33 AM EDT

[#5]

It's an analogy. Feel free to substitute another car if it makes you feel better.

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:14:36 AM EDT

[#6]

jeez making a big eal over nothing, just put a little alumunim black on it and it will be fine

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:16:06 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Here, you can fix it with this:

www.sharpie.com/sanford/consumer/sharpie/img/marker_fine_black.jpg

+1

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:19:01 AM EDT

[#8]

I've never had a problem with GTS/Denny; He's an asset to our community and has great gear and great prices. I know that if I did have a problem with something, he would most likely bend over backwards to correct the issue and make sure that I was still a satisfied customer.

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:21:36 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Just so you can rest a little easier, I highly doubt the anodizing is whats chipping, more then likely the finish is rubbing off. Anodizing is a hardening of the metal and not a finish. The finish IS a paint type material and any finish will rub off. Sometimes its done the same time as the anodizing sometimes afterwards. This lower has had most of the finish or black dye rubbed off however the anodizing still remains. Notice how the grey is very dull, thats the anodizing. If it was a really shiny color that would be raw aluminum.

209.200.17.142/images/ASA%20after%20CSC.JPG

You may want to refinish that lower

-C4-

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:28:31 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Just so you can rest a little easier, I highly doubt the anodizing is whats chipping, more then likely the finish is rubbing off. Anodizing is a hardening of the metal and not a finish. The finish IS a paint type material and any finish will rub off. Sometimes its done the same time as the anodizing sometimes afterwards. This lower has had most of the finish or black dye rubbed off however the anodizing still remains. Notice how the grey is very dull, thats the anodizing. If it was a really shiny color that would be raw aluminum.

209.200.17.142/images/ASA%20after%20CSC.JPG

You may want to refinish that lower

-C4-

Yes. You should refinish the brand new lower to make sure that it is like it should have been when you received it fresh out of the box.

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:45:34 AM EDT

[#11]

This could easily be fixed by changing the subject header to say "CMT upper *finish problems*. and contacting the dealer for resolution before posting here.

Posted: 1/6/2006 9:00:04 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just so you can rest a little easier, I highly doubt the anodizing is whats chipping, more then likely the finish is rubbing off. Anodizing is a hardening of the metal and not a finish. The finish IS a paint type material and any finish will rub off. Sometimes its done the same time as the anodizing sometimes afterwards. This lower has had most of the finish or black dye rubbed off however the anodizing still remains. Notice how the grey is very dull, thats the anodizing. If it was a really shiny color that would be raw aluminum.

209.200.17.142/images/ASA%20after%20CSC.JPG

You may want to refinish that lower

-C4-

Yes. You should refinish the brand new lower to make sure that it is like it should have been when you received it fresh out of the box.

Uhm - did you click on the picture? That's not ALCapone's lower, that is an example of a worn lower (that probably COULD use a refinish).

More on-topic, my take is that AlCapone's question about the finish quality of his new CMT upper is entirely legitimate, but I also see the mention of Denny's (especially in the title) as completely unecessary (and somewhat inapproriate, since it implies by association the the "problem" is tied to Denny's).

Posted: 1/6/2006 9:15:18 AM EDT

[#13]

Out of respect you should change the title of your thread. Just my opinion.
BTW that kind of wear looks normal to me.

Posted: 1/6/2006 9:47:03 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i think he was the one that said he had to resend the uppers he got back to get redone.one might have got through.

source of info?

It WASNT his CMT uppers, it was his GTS marked STAG LOWERS that he send back.

shit thanks for corrected me i knew it was one of them.

Posted: 1/6/2006 2:10:28 PM EDT

[#15]

Got this off a finishers web site.

Effects of Sharp Edges on Anodizing
During the anodizing process the aluminum oxide film grows perpendicular to the surface of the part. Because of this there will be less coverage on the sharp corners of parts leaving a weak spot in the anodic coating.

Just the way it works. May be some extra process that can be do to take the edges off or round them. Any one know?

Posted: 1/6/2006 3:06:35 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

guess ill continue to buy strictly bushmaster parts, never had a problem with them....

out

Posted: 1/6/2006 3:48:02 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
This entire thread is pathetic if the vendor was not contacted first.

Whats even more pathetic is all the "wanna-be's" posting absolutely infantile responses to AlCapone's post. I agree that Denny should have been contacted first and that those "defects" might have appeared after the first 100 rounds down the tube anyways but my God, grow up people. It looks like most of the responses here are a pathetic way for you guys to cry out "I'm a real man and USE my gun". Great, everyone knows you all are "operators" now. I think AlCapone got the message after the first page.

Posted: 1/6/2006 3:54:38 PM EDT

[#18]

currently waiting for denny's response...

Emailed him today..

Posted: 1/6/2006 4:58:31 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
This entire thread is pathetic if the vendor was not contacted first.

Whats even more pathetic is all the "wanna-be's" posting absolutely infantile responses to AlCapone's post. I agree that Denny should have been contacted first and that those "defects" would appear after the first 100 rounds down the tube but my God, grow up people. It looks like most of the responses here are a pathetic way for you guys to cry out "I'm a real man and USE my gun". Great, everyone knows you all are "operators" now. I think AlCapone got the message after the first page.

Never claimed to be an operator, however I did wear the finish off a few M16s in my day.

I will say one thing. The light gray type anodizing used back in the 60s and 70s sure seemed a lot tougher than the matte black stuff you see on M16s and M4s these days. Tougher and more resistant to wear, chipping and scratching. While I could give a rats ass about cosmetics I do miss that finish.

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:02:41 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
This entire thread is pathetic if the vendor was not contacted first.

Whats even more pathetic is all the "wanna-be's" posting absolutely infantile responses to AlCapone's post. I agree that Denny should have been contacted first and that those "defects" would appear after the first 100 rounds down the tube but my God, grow up people. It looks like most of the responses here are a pathetic way for you guys to cry out "I'm a real man and USE my gun". Great, everyone knows you all are "operators" now. I think AlCapone got the message after the first page.

Pat said I'm a real shooter, so I must be.

Posted: 1/6/2006 7:15:31 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
The light gray type anodizing used back in the 60s and 70s sure seemed a lot tougher than the matte black stuff you see on M16s and M4s these days.

I've never had a problem with current military anodizing or any decent anodizing for that matter (Beretta comes to mind) and yes it does wear off, esp when some dumb private thinks that taking a chamber brush to the exterior of his rifle is a sound cleaning methodology. That said, A LOT of the anodizing you see on AR15 parts is no where near mil spec despite the claims of the maker. Anodizing like that used on the M16 does not come off easily even in a bead blast cabinet, I've bead blasted enough COLT parts and enough of other makers parts to know the difference.

Posted: 1/6/2006 8:16:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
snip... That said, A LOT of the anodizing you see on AR15 parts is no where near mil spec despite the claims of the maker.

Ain't it the truth!

Posted: 1/7/2006 5:12:58 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The light gray type anodizing used back in the 60s and 70s sure seemed a lot tougher than the matte black stuff you see on M16s and M4s these days.

I've never had a problem with current military anodizing or any decent anodizing for that matter (Beretta comes to mind) and yes it does wear off, esp when some dumb private thinks that taking a chamber brush to the exterior of his rifle is a sound cleaning methodology. That said, A LOT of the anodizing you see on AR15 parts is no where near mil spec despite the claims of the maker. Anodizing like that used on the M16 does not come off easily even in a bead blast cabinet, I've bead blasted enough COLT parts and enough of other makers parts to know the difference.

I guess the parts CMT makes for Colt and FN go to a different anodizer than the parts they sell to us

BTW CMT does have the TDP from Colt for the parts they make for them. Colt holds the ENTIRE TDP to themselves but subs get the parts of the TDP for the parts they make.

Maybe this is why CMT/Stag parts are so damn good.

I was finally contacted by the buyer and he will be receiving a new upper

I will use this one for one of my personal builds.

Denny

Posted: 1/7/2006 6:02:55 AM EDT

[#24]

Im not trying to make waves but I have had 2 CMT recievers that have had (thin) anodizing that seemed to flake off like that but I also have 2 that are great and seem to be comparable with the Colt parts. I could flake the anodizing off with my fingernail.

Posted: 1/7/2006 6:18:12 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
snip... That said, A LOT of the anodizing you see on AR15 parts is no where near mil spec despite the claims of the maker.

Ain't it the truth!

This is not aimed at CMT. This is for informational purposes.
I use my ARs and I have Colt carbine buffer tubes that are well used and still have all the anodizing on them and I have other brands (not CMT) that have lots of aluminum showing through with a lot less ware on them. There is a difference.

Posted: 1/7/2006 6:23:46 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Im not trying to make waves but I have had 2 CMT recievers that have had (thin) anodizing that seemed to flake off like that but I also have 2 that are great and seem to be comparable with the Colt parts. I could flake the anodizing off with my fingernail.

They should have been returned. No manufacturer can correct a problem if they are unaware of it.

If a part from any manufacturer is substandard it needs to be dealt with and the manufacturer need to be notified. Feedback from you guys is essential.

I rely on ALL of you to give me feedback on any product I carry. With CMT as an example, I sell around 100 uppers a month. Each one is examined when we add the FA and ejection port cover. We look for blems and finish problems. We have no way to test the anodizing and can only go on historical experience. That experience with CMT has been extremely high quality wise and only a few lowers going back, mainly due to dings caused in shipping. Fit has always been excellent. There is not a better upper out there at any price. When you are producing thousands of a part a year there is always the possibility of a slip in something like the anodizing on a few uppers. There is never an excuse for poor guaging of the part. So far all problems with CMT uppers have been limited to cosmetic issues, never a fitment or function issue.

Where else are you going to get real M4 cut uppers made to the TDP?

Denny

Posted: 1/7/2006 6:49:48 AM EDT

[#27]

yes, the recievers didnt get used for a while after I got them and I didnt have the receipt anymore. The CMTs do fit and function absolutely great. I will continue to use them.

Posted: 1/7/2006 9:49:39 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I was finally contacted by the buyer and he will be receiving a new upper I will use this one for one of my personal builds.

Hey Denny,

I never had any doubt that you would replace the upper but I am curious about your decision to keep the upper in question?

You sent back an entire shipment of lowers because the color was not 100% match to the CMT uppers you have. I think everybody would agree that color variation from one lot to the next is fairly normal and the color match between the upper and lower is purely cosmetic.

In the case of this upper, AlCapone claims the "anodizing" can be flaked off with his finger nail. Assuming that is true, then I believe the upper to be defective because properly done Mil-Spec hard coat anodizing does not flake off with a finger nail. IMO, this goes beyond a cosmetic issue because anodizing is not done simply to make the part black (or gray or whatever) it's done to make the relatively soft aluminum tougher. You stated...

Quoted:
No manufacturer can correct a problem if they are unaware of it.

I agree with that statement 100%. If this upper is as described, then it is defective so shouldn't CMT be made aware of this and have it returned? That way, they can see it first hand and determine what happened so hopefully, they can take steps to avoid this happening again?

I'm seriously not trying to stir anything up, I'm just trying to understand your train of thought here?

Posted: 1/7/2006 10:48:00 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I was finally contacted by the buyer and he will be receiving a new upper I will use this one for one of my personal builds.

Hey Denny,

I never had any doubt that you would replace the upper but I am curious about your decision to keep the upper in question?

You sent back an entire shipment of lowers because the color was not 100% match to the CMT uppers you have. I think everybody would agree that color variation from one lot to the next is fairly normal and the color match between the upper and lower is purely cosmetic.

In the case of this upper, AlCapone claims the "anodizing" can be flaked off with his finger nail. Assuming that is true, then I believe the upper to be defective because properly done Mil-Spec hard coat anodizing does not flake off with a finger nail. IMO, this goes beyond a cosmetic issue because anodizing is not done simply to make the part black (or gray or whatever) it's done to make the relatively soft aluminum tougher. You stated...

Quoted:
No manufacturer can correct a problem if they are unaware of it.

I agree with that statement 100%. If this upper is as described, then it is defective so shouldn't CMT be made aware of this and have it returned? That way, they can see it first hand and determine what happened so hopefully, they can take steps to avoid this happening again?

I'm seriously not trying to stir anything up, I'm just trying to understand your train of thought here?

First of all I want the receiver in question in my possession to analyize the actual condition of the upper. If the problems are purely cosmetic I will just use it. If the anodizing does flake off with just a finger nail it will definately go to CMT/Stag to be replaced and Mark will be made aware of the issue.

We get in parts that have minor dings in shipping and I don't care about little flaws for my personal stuff as it is easier to just use it than return it.

I will withhold any judgement of the upper until I see it and get a chance to examine the anodizing.

Denny

Posted: 1/7/2006 10:49:37 AM EDT

[#30]

I be happy to take it off your hands, as I want to paint one Green anyway, and my Molycoat needs a good priced upper....

Posted: 1/7/2006 10:54:10 AM EDT

[#31]

This is a gag thread right? April Fools or something?

It isnt uncommon for an upper or lower to have a couple of nicks here and there...If people spent more time shooting guns instead of wiping them with a diaper they wouldnt be as concerned

Posted: 1/7/2006 11:11:53 AM EDT

[#32]

no, nicks are fine, but anodizing should not flake off that easy. I still have mine and dont remenber who I got it from so Im just going to use it for a beater or something.

Posted: 1/7/2006 11:40:25 AM EDT

[#33]

thanks denny...

My reason for posting this was to see if anyone else had a PROBLEM too.

if not I would have just kept it.....

seems like there a a few more chipping, and fingernal rub off cases....

looking forward to my new one...

thanks again..

and thanks to every one giving me a hard time

Posted: 1/7/2006 12:53:49 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Im not trying to make waves but I have had 2 CMT recievers that have had (thin) anodizing that seemed to flake off like that but I also have 2 that are great and seem to be comparable with the Colt parts. I could flake the anodizing off with my fingernail.

Same here. Two CMT receivers from different vendors and one was perfect while one had the anodizing wear very quickly on th edges of everything. If I mounted something on this or hit it somewhere the anodizing would come off. But the other one was fine and nothing like the happened.

Never enough of a problem for me to feel that I should return it or post about it.

Posted: 1/7/2006 1:12:23 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I will withhold any judgement of the upper until I see it and get a chance to examine the anodizing.

That's cool, I can respect that. I will pretty much understand if you choose not to but I for one would appreciate it if you can report back once you've had a chance to look at it in person. Thanks

Quoted:
I be happy to take it off your hands, as I want to paint one Green anyway, and my Molycoat needs a good priced upper

You may want to think twice about that. If the anodizing is flaking off with little effort, Moly-Resin (or any other type of finish) isn't going to stick worth a damn.

Posted: 1/7/2006 1:53:20 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I be happy to take it off your hands, as I want to paint one Green anyway, and my Molycoat needs a good priced upper

You may want to think twice about that. If the anodizing is flaking off with little effort, Moly-Resin (or any other type of finish) isn't going to stick worth a damn.

Thanks for the advice.

I don't agree. First of all anodized aluminum doesn't flake, as it is a grown out of the aluminum. Yes anodized sharp 90 degree angles have probelms, but I doubt this is the case. If it is truely a horrible "paint" job, then I will blast it a molycoat it. I think I will be happy with a good deal.

Eitherway Denny will let everyone know what he thinks as soon as he gets it back. Probably not for sale anyway.

Posted: 1/7/2006 1:59:39 PM EDT

[#37]

I can take it off your hands if your not happy with it.

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:08:34 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
First of all anodized aluminum doesn't flake, as it is a grown out of the aluminum.

Exactly my point and having no reason to believe AlCapone is lying, I'll take him at his word.

A non-anodized aluminum receiver is junk regardless of what you sandblast and paint it with. Hard coat anodizing was designed for a reason and that's not to make it pretty or black.

I guess we will just have to wait for a second opinion from Denny.

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:09:26 PM EDT

[#39]

"AlCapone"--thanks for making us aware of your problem. It's not normal for anodizing to chip off with a finger nail. I also appreciate others who have chimed in with reports of thin anodizing on their CMT uppers. Perhaps CMT released a bad batch.

If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:30:55 PM EDT

[#40]

If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

+1

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:38:58 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
This is not aimed at CMT. This is for informational purposes.

Thank you.

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:40:55 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

+1

+1 also.

I am very much aware of customer concerns and take them seriously and resolve them quickly.

Some took offense at the way this post was originally worded and rode to my defense as they felt that my company was being bashed over this upper. I thank them for their support. It was easy to construe it that way due to the amount of bashing that goes on here. But AlCapone was just trying to get some info and feedback.

The original tag line of the post and the body of the original post could be taken a couple of ways, but I am sure AlCapone meant no harm.

Denny

Posted: 1/7/2006 2:53:24 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

+1

+1 also.

I am very much aware of customer concerns and take them seriously and resolve them quickly.

Some took offense at the way this post was originally worded and rode to my defense as they felt that my company was being bashed over this upper. I thank them for their support. It was easy to construe it that way due to the amount of bashing that goes on here. But AlCapone was just trying to get some info and feedback.

The original tag line of the post and the body of the original post could be taken a couple of ways, but I am sure AlCapone meant no harm.
Denny

Nice professional reply, Denny. Kudos to you...

Posted: 1/7/2006 3:00:18 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

some certainly do have their pet brands.

Posted: 1/7/2006 3:08:42 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

some certainly do have their pet brands.

Hell on ARFDOM, the clone (Airsoft) gods would have ganged raped everyone.

Posted: 1/7/2006 3:11:39 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If someone reported a similar problem with an Aimpoint tube they wouldn't have been gang raped by some of the antisocials on this board.

some certainly do have their pet brands.

Let's just all stay on track here okay.

Denny

Posted: 1/7/2006 5:13:31 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

and thanks to every one giving me a hard time

No problem, we are arfcommers, it's our job.

Posted: 1/7/2006 7:08:19 PM EDT

[#48]

So far is this thread, there had been nothing shown that doesn't appear on every single AR-15.

I can't beleive you people are worked up about a mark in the finish that is .01" big.

Almost every AR has this from the factory.

Posted: 1/7/2006 7:11:07 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
So far is this thread, there had been nothing shown that doesn't appear on every single AR-15.

I can't beleive you people are worked up about a mark in the finish that is .01" big.

Almost every AR has this from the factory.

Probably, but some people don't care, they want their rifles to look perfect so that they can hang them on a wall.