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Posted: 1/1/2006 7:50:50 AM EDT
I have two Tactical bags ready to go, one with a Colt 6920 and 6 loaded mags, in the pistol slot an HK USP9 with 4 loaded mags. Another bag with a SOCOM16 and 4 loaded mags, a Taurus 92 with 4 loaded mags. Grabbing these and throwing one in each truck would be fast and easy.

However I am a teacher and don't carry on campus. If our house is broken in to it will be easy for a crook to grab the bags.

Should I put the guns into the safe and try to bag them as we get word that something is happening. Or hide the Tactical bags, or buy a steel military wall locker and loc the Tactical bags in it?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:03:57 AM EDT
I am trying to figure out a very similar issue. I am leaning towards the wall locker as well.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:12:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By threefeathers:
I have two Tactical bags ready to go




Go where?

It sounds like the only place those bags are going is with someone else if you don't secure them.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:14:20 AM EDT
I bet I can get my AR's outa my safe before you get yours outa the bag..

Leaving unsecured is asking for them to take a walk with someone...



Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:15:42 AM EDT
Get a safe. For your example, I can't imange anything that you would only have seconds to get out of the house for. It takes less than 30 seconds (on a bad day) to get in a dialed safe.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:39:17 AM EDT
+1 on the safe issue.

Besides in most cases one weapon at the ready will accomplish your needs for general personal safety.

If there is need for the arsenal you will have the time to set up.

Be responsible and use common sense. Keep all weapons secured.
You being a teacher to me would be more of a reason to keep things in a safe.
This is assuming you are a working at a Jr. or High School. The kids that are of the trouble making kind might track you down to vandalize your home if you piss them off. Then you just armed them with all your weapons.

I feel that a person needs to be concerned with the threats in this world and being prepared is an intelligent thing to be. However I am not so paranoid that I need all of my weapons at arms reach. To me this is asking for problems and being irresponsible to me my family and others.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:03:12 AM EDT
Keep the bags and extra mags in your car, keep the guns in the safe.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:11:14 AM EDT
I keep 2 handguns, loaded, in a small handgun safe on the top of my big safe. With kids in the house, that is the best combination of speed/safety for me. I can get out of bed open the handgun safe, and be armed in about 5 seconds. (yes in the middle of the night) That gives me some time to THINK about what I am doing. Then I keep one shotgun, and an AR with one mag, both "rack ready" in the big safe. Short of a full frontal assault I think that I can handle any realistic scenario with this setup. Its always a compromise between speed of use, and safety. You have to determine what your own needs are.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:15:21 AM EDT

Go where?


Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:29:38 AM EDT
We live near a military post and every one I know has drilled on getting out of range into the Mountains in a short time. Like all of my neighbors I have at least a month's worth of food and water. Much ammo. I have two great safes, a Big American Security. and a smaller quick open next to the bed that is bolted to a night stand.
I've decided to put the guns in the safe's but get a military wall locker and put a strong hasp and military lock on it. I'll put the bags in there. I'll put the loaded mags in the big safe in a position that is easy to get to.
I tried this out and got a loaded ruck, 3 sleeping bags, 2 5 gallon water cans, and then loaded both Tactical Bags with mags and guns. All in 15 minutes.
I may go ahead and get another American Security safe and just put the already packed bug out bags in them.

I agree I could be targeted as a teacher/coach. I booted my team captain off the team a few weeks ago. But, I was also voted the best teacher in the school by the majority of students and I have been there over 10 years and I can usually find things out in a day or so because I've taught the older brothers and sisters of my current students.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:16:24 PM EDT
.....this is a concern that many..i`m sure...deal with.....all i know is that there is something at hand....that will only take a rack or safety drop to use in a "emergency"....you have to weigh your options on your personal situation.....if theft is possible....the safe is a must.....if safety...then you can keep the "bag" ready.....just hide the ammo.....mag ready....close..but right handy.....what else can you do?.............
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:33:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By threefeathers:


I agree I could be targeted as a teacher/coach.




Agree with who? If you think the former capt of your football team is going to attack you, why would you bug out?


I'm missing something with this one.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:37:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 12:53:48 PM EDT by Gmountain]
Guys, really. What do you think is going to happen? Is something brewing?

It's great to be prepared and all, but what do you really think is going to happen in 30 seconds or even 5 minutes that you need to access all that weaponry, get in a truck and take off?

If you live in a likely terrorist target area, the roads will be clogged and there will be no communication, but on the other hand, as demonstrated on 9/11, there was no lawlwssness or rioting in the streets.


If you are worried about an invasion or some such scenario, those things do not happen in a vacuum, despite what you saw in Red Dawn. There is always a run up to war and plenty of time to see things coming.

So my thoughts are do what you want. Lock 'em up or not, but I wouldn't make the decision on whether to lock up my guns based on an unlikely scenario that you have only a few seconds to get out of Dodge.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:51:58 PM EDT
Wait! In order to put your AR in a safe you would have to let go of it first!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:53:18 PM EDT
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members. Get a shotgun- that is all you need for such purposes. I guess I don't understand, I keep my shotgun and one handgun read, neither loaded but ammo and two magazines near by. Three Feathers, no offense, but what could possible happen that you wouldn't have enough time to grab your rifles out of the safe and then throw them in your truck. If it was nuclear or biological first there would be Martial Law and the roadways would be on lockdown or you would already be dead, if we were invaded it would take an army months to get into the interior, so honestly ask yourself is living that kind of life of paranoia really good for you? If you are looking for the sky to fall then you will miss out on the life you have right in front of you.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:07:02 PM EDT
........obvious.......some are more paraniod than others......mine is the 45 or shotgun is very handy....there is lots of crime here including home invasions so safe at home or trust thy nieghbor is not an option.....far as getting away.....if the shtf big time.....you ain`t goin no where.....my only answer to that is......"buy more bullets".................
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:07:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members. Get a shotgun- that is all you need for such purposes. I guess I don't understand,


I'll agree with you on the last sentence...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:13:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 1:13:51 PM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By Kisara:

I'll agree with you on the last sentence...




I'm done beating my head against the wall on these. If people want to live the 70s, I can only assume they have shag rugs and perm their hair as well.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:20:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Kisara:

I'll agree with you on the last sentence...




I'm done beating my head against the wall on these. If people want to live the 70s, I can only assume they have shag rugs and perm their hair as well.

......hey....i am stuck in the 70`s......no perms tho......them are for the liesure suit types.....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:35:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 1:37:33 PM EDT by TrijiCog]
What situation do you visualize yourself in that requires access to your rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammo within 30 seconds ? Though if I was as "prepared" as you seem to be,I would bury my rifles in the mountains,along with food and water.Keep a shotgun handy to fend off the hoardes of insurgents that get in your way.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:36:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:01:29 PM EDT
Hey guys, I live 16 miles from the Mexican border. We have more illegals here than you have flies. When I drive from Sierra Vista to Bisbee I guarantee my 6920 goes with me. The chances of us being hit are pretty darn good. But the chances of a house break in are also good although on my block we know every one who should be here and we all have big dogs. I am the only retired NCO on this Cul de Sac, every one else is a Lt Colonel or better. All that is except my back fence neighbor who I served with in the army, he won the lottery, I did well on another deal. When 911 happened our area was cut off from traffic by any one who didn't live here. My across the street neighbor is the officer who captured the Sendario Luminiso leader in Peru. So I may live in a teensey weensey bit mre targeted area than many others, and it is a area that someone coming across the border could get to. I realize that if they do Ft. Huachuca would be the prime target. Hey, we have to walk past cement barriers to get to the doors of the Comissary and the P X.
The result is that I like having a run fast kit so for me the best idea is a seperate safe. The retired one star across the street has a larger safe than me and he will probably do the same.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:02:54 PM EDT
Colt, HK, SOCOM16,........Taurus??? Whats wrong with this picture?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:06:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 2:13:19 PM EDT by 97widerider]

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members.



I believe the opposite is true. It seems I have heard often that ballistic studies show a .223 is less likely to penetrate an interior wall than a 9mm because of its tumbling affect. However, I agree. I would much rather have a 00 buck shot with nine .32 cal projectiles flying towards the intruder.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:41:53 PM EDT
For home defense I have a nice 870 Tactical loaded with #7 shot which will not go through two walls, but will make mincemeat of soemone coming through a door. and the gun in the nightstand safe is a Detective Special. Two Surefire lights are on either side of the bed. But in my Tactical Bag I want weapons that I could draw ammo from the army if necesary. I think I've come to the proper solution. Two safes, one with my historical stuff, the other with the Tactical stuff. If anyone can cart them off they would get it any way.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:57:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 97widerider:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members.



I believe the opposite is true. It seems I have heard often that ballistic studies show a .223 is less likely to penetrate an interior wall than a 9mm because of its tumbling affect. However, I agree. I would much rather have a 00 buck shot with nine .32 cal projectiles flying towards the intruder.



You might want to search "BOX-O-TRUTH"
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:58:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:00:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 97widerider:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members.



I believe the opposite is true. It seems I have heard often that ballistic studies show a .223 is less likely to penetrate an interior wall than a 9mm because of its tumbling affect. However, I agree. I would much rather have a 00 buck shot with nine .32 cal projectiles flying towards the intruder.



I was shooting up an old computer case a while back and was amazed that my .223 could not penetrate both sides of it but my .40 SW blew right through it.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:13:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members. Get a shotgun- that is all you need for such purposes. I guess I don't understand, I keep my shotgun and one handgun read, neither loaded but ammo and two magazines near by. Three Feathers, no offense, but what could possible happen that you wouldn't have enough time to grab your rifles out of the safe and then throw them in your truck. If it was nuclear or biological first there would be Martial Law and the roadways would be on lockdown or you would already be dead, if we were invaded it would take an army months to get into the interior, so honestly ask yourself is living that kind of life of paranoia really good for you? If you are looking for the sky to fall then you will miss out on the life you have right in front of you.



Wish I had the Pic.

AGNTSA

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:32:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Why would you use an AR for home defense? The rounds would go through the walls possibly hurting your own family members. Get a shotgun- that is all you need for such purposes. I guess I don't understand, I keep my shotgun and one handgun read, neither loaded but ammo and two magazines near by. Three Feathers, no offense, but what could possible happen that you wouldn't have enough time to grab your rifles out of the safe and then throw them in your truck. If it was nuclear or biological first there would be Martial Law and the roadways would be on lockdown or you would already be dead, if we were invaded it would take an army months to get into the interior, so honestly ask yourself is living that kind of life of paranoia really good for you? If you are looking for the sky to fall then you will miss out on the life you have right in front of you.



Uhhh.....someone needs to read the Box o truth.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:34:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By threefeathers:
For home defense I have a nice 870 Tactical loaded with #7 shot which will not go through two walls, but will make mincemeat of soemone coming through a door. and the gun in the nightstand safe is a Detective Special. Two Surefire lights are on either side of the bed. But in my Tactical Bag I want weapons that I could draw ammo from the army if necesary. I think I've come to the proper solution. Two safes, one with my historical stuff, the other with the Tactical stuff. If anyone can cart them off they would get it any way.



No, it will make a shallow, superficial wound which will not take the BG out of the fight.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:03:19 PM EDT
That one I'll take a chance on. If he can see or hear anything after three or four 12 gauge blasts from 4 or 5 feet he can then eat several Federal FBI Load 158 grain HP Lead bullets.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:49:03 PM EDT
In any case, all of this is speculation based on a few home-made tests and zero actual home intruder shootings with an AR.

Personally I wouldn't use my AR's for home defense because I don't want them confiscated by the police after a shooting and subsequent investigation. I stick to my Glock 26 for carry (paid $400 for it, and I can lose $400 and not cry), and my nightstand. I can double-tap with it and shoot accurately to 75yds without even concentrating. I can rapid-fire 11rnds into a 6" circle at 15yds. That is enough to stop a threat in my opinion, specially if it is loaded with Winchester 127gr +P and 147gr Rangers.

I don't plan to use expensive $1,500+ (or even $800+) guns in firefights unless it is the SHTF and no one is going to be there to investigate and confiscate my weapons.


- rem
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:53:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By threefeathers:
Hey guys, I live 16 miles from the Mexican border. We have more illegals here than you have flies. When I drive from Sierra Vista to Bisbee I guarantee my 6920 goes with me. The chances of us being hit are pretty darn good. But the chances of a house break in are also good although on my block we know every one who should be here and we all have big dogs. I am the only retired NCO on this Cul de Sac, every one else is a Lt Colonel or better. All that is except my back fence neighbor who I served with in the army, he won the lottery, I did well on another deal. When 911 happened our area was cut off from traffic by any one who didn't live here. My across the street neighbor is the officer who captured the Sendario Luminiso leader in Peru. So I may live in a teensey weensey bit mre targeted area than many others, and it is a area that someone coming across the border could get to. I realize that if they do Ft. Huachuca would be the prime target. Hey, we have to walk past cement barriers to get to the doors of the Comissary and the P X.
The result is that I like having a run fast kit so for me the best idea is a seperate safe. The retired one star across the street has a larger safe than me and he will probably do the same.



You're loony as a rat in a tin shithouse.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:53:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:54:44 PM EDT by remedy]
Oh and to the original poster, I say keep your shit in the safe ALWAYS. Theft is a big deal.

Someone's 14yo punk kid sees you coming out of your house for a range session with your guns, spends a week casing your place with his punk friends (if you are lucky and it's not someone older who can hire a PI to track you enough to know how to get all your shit), breaks in one day when you are not there and gets all those bags... and you are up shits creek. Good luck getting your guns back and good luck having them NOT used in a crime once they are stolen. If you get spotted and cased by someone older you can count on never seeing your stuff again.

Thefts are so common it is insane people do not take securing their weapons more seriously. Keep them loaded and ready in your safes. It only takes 15-30 seconds to get into a decent safe and get your guns at the ready. I think you can spare that much if it is SHTF time or something else.


- rem


Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:56:09 PM EDT
Remedy, that is good thinking and I don't know how this thread became a sound board for the AR in Home Defense. Holy Cow, I have an 870 and 38 different Handguns for that. But curiosity abides and I admit to being rather ADHD also. I called a very close friend who is in the local SWAT team and they use a very high velosity Varmit bullet for encouters that an AR will use in an Urban encounter. It will disintegrate. He said that it is from Federal. But I'm still not wanting to use my AR for defense unless it is absolutely needed.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:07:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 6:07:42 PM EDT by remedy]
Oh yeah, that is a good point as well. You could always use frangible or very light bullets for AR home defense, but still - unless it is a shorty do you really want to be meandering around your house in the middle of the night with a rifle instead of a handgun? Depends on how large your home is too I guess, and how many entry points there are for a burglar. But even still, after a shooting you can expect your rifle to be evidence for at least a year or more. Surely people must know that, reading the numerous articles that have been posted on here about people using rifles for self defense and the subsquent investigation and/or trial and all that bullshit.

- rem
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:14:07 PM EDT
In Red Dawn Jed had a single action .45 Colt and one box of ammo and he did not know it was loaded.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:23:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
You could always use frangible or very light bullets for AR home defense....





What are you talking about? Frangible is horrible for just about everything, with the exception if shooting steel.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:25:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By remedy:
You could always use frangible or very light bullets for AR home defense....





What are you talking about? Frangible is horrible for just about everything, with the exception if shooting steel.



I tie little lanyard strings onto each bullet to limit over penetration... works great.

It also saves the CS techs a lot of trouble in reconstruction
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:31:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 6:34:36 PM EDT by remedy]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What are you talking about? Frangible is horrible for just about everything, with the exception if shooting steel.



Interesting, I read a thing about USGI frangible rounds (trying to find the website now) testing against particle board, wallboard, steel, windshields, and finally ballistic gelatin (the latter of which should some pretty gruesome fragmentation but low penetration depth) and I came away with it thinking that it would probably be better to use in the home than anything else save for 50gr JHP or smaller loads.

ETA: I was researching it after seeing it on ammoman.com under their 223 offerings.

Here is the description from ammoman.com

223 FRANGIBLE U.S.G.I.
50 GRAIN BULLET
REDUCED RICOCHET
LOW PENETRATION
UNITED STATES GOVT. ISSUE.
IN SEALED G.I. AMMO CANS
GREAT FOR INDOOR RANGES.
BRAND NEW (SEE PICS)

FANTASTIC VARMINT, CLOSE QUARTERS
OR HOME DEFENSE ROUND



- rem
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:42:17 PM EDT
For the un-initiated, recomend you check out this site and see what your bullets will actually do when you shoot at something.

THE BOX O' TRUTH

BOX O' TRUTH INSULATED WALL PENETRATION TESTING


no expert

Gene
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:47:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What are you talking about? Frangible is horrible for just about everything, with the exception if shooting steel.



Interesting, I read a thing about USGI frangible rounds (trying to find the website now) testing against particle board, wallboard, steel, windshields, and finally ballistic gelatin (the latter of which should some pretty gruesome fragmentation but low penetration depth) and I came away with it thinking that it would probably be better to use in the home than anything else save for 50gr JHP or smaller loads.

ETA: I was researching it after seeing it on ammoman.com under their 223 offerings.

Here is the description from ammoman.com

223 FRANGIBLE U.S.G.I.
50 GRAIN BULLET
REDUCED RICOCHET
LOW PENETRATION
UNITED STATES GOVT. ISSUE.
IN SEALED G.I. AMMO CANS
GREAT FOR INDOOR RANGES.
BRAND NEW (SEE PICS)

FANTASTIC VARMINT, CLOSE QUARTERS
OR HOME DEFENSE ROUND

www.ammoman.com/images/223-FGB-5.jpg

- rem



Federal Cartridge Company 5.56mm R2LP - designed for training environments to reduce the chance of ricochet...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:48:55 PM EDT
Or get crazy and read up about what rounds do when they hit people...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:52:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 6:53:02 PM EDT by eye_spy]

Originally Posted By threefeathers:
Remedy, that is good thinking and I don't know how this thread became a sound board for the AR in Home Defense. Holy Cow, I have an 870 and 38 different Handguns for that. But curiosity abides and I admit to being rather ADHD also. I called a very close friend who is in the local SWAT team and they use a very high velosity Varmit bullet for encouters that an AR will use in an Urban encounter. It will disintegrate. He said that it is from Federal. But I'm still not wanting to use my AR for defense unless it is absolutely needed.



Wow ... your question was simple enough. Leave it in a bag, or put it in a safe? Now it has blown up into "Why would you do that?" or "Where would you go? .... and the mother of all off topics ... overpenetration!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:49:49 PM EDT
I like that, crazy as a cat in a tin shithouse. I'm going to put it on a T-Shirt. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:14:25 PM EDT
I wish the "Box O Truth" used the same ammo, barrel length, and twist rate that I do. Then I'd be a believer.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:56:35 PM EDT
I will use the most effective weapon for me for home defense. I'd rather my Bushy gets confiscated for a while than rely upon a weaker pistol. Even if I never got the gun back it would still be cheaper than my funeral.
I'll use an AR because I don't intend to miss. I've put more rounds through that platform, training for serious purposes than all guns together.
Actually, mine isn't broken in and zeroed yet, so I would probalby grab something else for now. Once I get a couple hundred rounds through it I will be totally confident in it and my ability to hit what I am shooting at.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:23:44 PM EDT
What's that supposed to mean?



Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
I see changing his name form 'Bryant' to 'Creeper' has done nothing to remove him from quadrant four.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:36:29 PM EDT
The only reason I suggested a shotgun is because most times it only takes the racking of the pump to scare most guys off and if they are dumb enough to keep coming then you have one hell of an answer. I keep hollow points in my house nine and use lead shot in my 12 for just the purpose of not over penetrating walls. Second using a rifle for a house gun only actuates the situation from the standpoint that most people here including myself have never been in a real firefight though they pay homage to their armchair commando status, having said that, it would be a bad time to find out about combat stress, tunnel vision, auditory defusion, when your family's life is at stake. Use a shotgun, it's simple to use, it only takes one hit aiming in the general direction to put most targets down. Just my suggestion.
Creeper
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:11:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
The only reason I suggested a shotgun is because most times it only takes the racking of the pump to scare most guys off and if they are dumb enough to keep coming then you have one hell of an answer. I keep hollow points in my house nine and use lead shot in my 12 for just the purpose of not over penetrating walls. Second using a rifle for a house gun only actuates the situation from the standpoint that most people here including myself have never been in a real firefight though they pay homage to their armchair commando status, having said that, it would be a bad time to find out about combat stress, tunnel vision, auditory defusion, when your family's life is at stake. Use a shotgun, it's simple to use, it only takes one hit aiming in the general direction to put most targets down. Just my suggestion.
Creeper



You must be joking.
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