Quoted: Popularity contest would say, Bushmaster, but they are equally worthy choices. oh, and by the way, this topic is............ img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/deadhorse_edited.jpg

wow that is certainly not what I have gathered from this forum. Every RRA vs. Bushie poll has RRA winning. I started out wanting a Bushie 6 months ago (or a Colt) and the research I've done here has steered me away from Bushie. Every other page seems to have somebody complaining about a canted sight or something. Sure that most Bushies are just fine, but they seem to have a bigger problem with QC.

And as for 4140 vs. 4150 steel, most of us will never see a difference as long as we live. The majority will never have the chance to blaze away with a full auto M4....and frankly that goes for most FBI guys, DEA guys, local cops whatever. Doesn't matter to me, I am switching out my RRA 16" for a Bushie 14.5" with perm. Phantom (sucker for the shorter barrels), so the only "real" complaint against RRA won't be my problem

Bushy has more problems because they manufacture and sell more rifles than all of the other companies combined. BY FAR. So of course you will hear of more issues. The real thing is if they will take care of them. I see one guy in this thread with an RRA when they wouldn't take care of it. The lifetime warranty means jack if they wont stand behind it. I know for a fact that Bushy will warranty anything they sell regardless of when you bought it.

Quoted: Bushy has more problems because they manufacture and sell more rifles than all of the other companies combined. BY FAR. So of course you will hear of more issues. The real thing is if they will take care of them. I see one guy in this thread with an RRA when they wouldn't take care of it. The lifetime warranty means jack if they wont stand behind it. I know for a fact that Bushy will warranty anything they sell regardless of when you bought it.

+1

Bushmaster... Beacuse its better......

I wont support Bushmaster at all. Having said that RRA all the way. If anyone was wondering why I wont support them. Just do some research on Bushmaster and the DC area shootings by the two dumbass morons the press called snipers. What an insult to actual snipers.

Quoted: I wont support Bushmaster at all. Having said that RRA all the way. If anyone was wondering why I wont support them. Just do some research on Bushmaster and the DC area shootings by the two dumbass morons the press called snipers. What an insult to actual snipers.

What does that have to do with bushmaster??  I'm sure they didn't go knocking on Bushmasters door saying, " We want to shoot up some innocent people, please sell me a rifle." And Bushmaster said," sure, no problem."  

You might as well not drive your car because some a--hole probably got drunk and killed a few people in the same kind of car you're driving.

I don't get your thinking.  It's not the object that did the shooting, it's the wacko's that did it.  They could've done it with any brand.

Oh, and by the way, my Dad has an RRA lower for a custom upper and it seems very nice.  It IS a tighter fit than  others I've seen.  I've also got one for a custom upper I got coming for myself.   Obviously doesn't make me an expert on RRA but the fit and finish seems to be nice.

Quoted: Quoted: I wont support Bushmaster at all. Having said that RRA all the way. If anyone was wondering why I wont support them. Just do some research on Bushmaster and the DC area shootings by the two dumbass morons the press called snipers. What an insult to actual snipers. What does that have to do with bushmaster??  I'm sure they didn't go knocking on Bushmasters door saying, " We want to shoot up some innocent people, please sell me a rifle." And Bushmaster said," sure, no problem."   You might as well not drive your car because some a--hole probably got drunk and killed a few people in the same kind of car you're driving. I don't get your thinking.  It's not the object that did the shooting, it's the wacko's that did it.  They could've done it with any brand.

He's probably talking about Bushmaster settling with the brady campaign in the lawsuit.

Quoted: Bushy has more problems because they manufacture and sell more rifles than all of the other companies combined. BY FAR. So of course you will hear of more issues. The real thing is if they will take care of them. I see one guy in this thread with an RRA when they wouldn't take care of it. The lifetime warranty means jack if they wont stand behind it. I know for a fact that Bushy will warranty anything they sell regardless of when you bought it.

By all accounts, minus the one mentioned on this thread, RRA stands 100% behind their lifetime guarantee. The case mentioned on this thread seems unique and I've read many accounts of RRA fixing anything that is wrong. And yes Bushie has good customer servie, excellent from what I've read. In the same way that you can't assume all Bushie rifles have canted sights because of 100s of reports, you can't judge RRAs customer service based on this one incident.

Be weary with the Bird Cage "flash suppressor", I've read it's anything but that.  Am I wrong?

Rock River Arms rifles come with the Standard A2 flash suppressor.

Quoted: I wont support Bushmaster at all. Having said that RRA all the way. If anyone was wondering why I wont support them. Just do some research on Bushmaster and the DC area shootings by the two dumbass morons the press called snipers. What an insult to actual snipers.

Thanks for all the info so far, I keep leaning towards one and back to the other!
(both good rifles) I definately have to get out and hold one.

From BushMasters Website:
     

manganese phosphate finished for complete protection against corrosion and rust -        as are all steel parts of the weapon

Does RRA have the same finish(maganese phosphate)?  or better?

Frank

Quoted: Bird Cage flash suppressor is often used to describe the A2 flash suppressor. I guess you could use the term birdcage to describe the A1 flash suppressor. Neither the A1 or the A2 are great flash suppressors. Neither are bad, but neither as as good as any of the other upgrades like the Phantom or Vortex.

Thanks for the correction new-arguy.

The RRA also comes standard with Wilson R-4 Chrome Moly 1:9 twist barrel.  The entry tactical model comes with that nice tactical carry handle and the quad rail and the two stage match trigger as well.  Some nice standard components!

DSA also had a hot set up with thier black rifles.  I shot the gas trap carbine and found it to be far superior to the standard AR gas tube set up.  If you can afford to pay big cash, the DSA is the way to go for that GTC!

Yah know, I think most of the current manufacture black rifles are all great quality, so you just have to pick the configuration you want.

Quoted: RRA from Legal Transfers.  Best AR for the money....Might be the best period.....

+1

Quoted: Quoted: The RRA also comes standard with Wilson R-4 Chrome Moly 1:9 twist barrel.  The entry tactical model comes with that nice tactical carry handle and the quad rail and the two stage match trigger as well.  Some nice standard components! DSA also had a hot set up with thier black rifles.  I shot the gas trap carbine and found it to be far superior to the standard AR gas tube set up.  If you can afford to pay big cash, the DSA is the way to go for that GTC! Yah know, I think most of the current manufacture black rifles are all great quality, so you just have to pick the configuration you want. This is of course just my opinion, but why you would WANT a chrome moly barrel over a chrome lined barrel is beyond me? If you want a more accurate barrel, get a match barrel, (and I dont really believe that a standard chrome moly AR barrel is any more accurate than a standard chrome lined barrel to begin with). And their "Tactical Carry Handle" is, in my opinion, worthless. I'd rather have a standard removable carry handle I could mount something like a Comp ACOG to, or just remove it all together. With the Tac Handle, you can only use an Aimpoint with the cruddiest Aimpoint mount available. I just dont get it. Their trigger however, is a nice upgrade.

Absolutely dead on... nothing more to add.

Quoted: The RRA also comes standard with Wilson R-4 Chrome Moly 1:9 twist barrel.  The entry tactical model comes with that nice tactical carry handle and the quad rail and the two stage match trigger as well.  Some nice standard components! DSA also had a hot set up with thier black rifles.  I shot the gas trap carbine and found it to be far superior to the standard AR gas tube set up.  If you can afford to pay big cash, the DSA is the way to go for that GTC! Yah know, I think most of the current manufacture black rifles are all great quality, so you just have to pick the configuration you want.

Pistons, we don't need no stinkin pistons!

I don't know if I'd go with DSA, they're new in the game, unless you want to take a risk.  I could care less if it's got a piston or not, obviously.

The RRA tactical carry handle is definately a matter of preference.  It works well with an Aimpoint, Trijicon, or Eotech.  It can be removed exposing a rail mount.  It simply provides two mounting points on top of the upper.  As far as the Chrome Moly barrel, well, in my opinion that is all that is needed for a CQB and entry shoulder arm.  A match grade barrel would be nice and cost more, but military grade suits me fine!

If you have not fired the GTC by DSA, don't knock it!    I also own a SA-58 Paratrooper style GTC .308 and it is a great military/law enforcement style rifle.

My Bushmaster has a standard military grade M4 barrel and my Colt CAR-15 has a standard grade Chrome Moly barrel as well.  Both fine barrels that have had hundreds if not thorusands of rounds through them.  No problems!

I do beleive when ur dik hits da dirt and yur belly crawlin for the kill shot, any of these rifles will get the job done!

When a manuf. states - "chrome moly bbl"... that translates into - "we decided not to spend the money to chrome line the bbl" and we are counting on you not knowing the difference or convincing you that you don't need it.
A chrome moly bbl is not mil spec if not chrome lined (oh yeah, vanidium)

I can't figure out why I keep reading over and over, "that is all that is needed..."  why settle for a bbl that is not chrome lined when chrome lining only adds approx $4 to the cost of manufacturing the bbl and there is no dispute that a chrome lined bbl is superior?
I am not interested in hearing that chrome reduces accuracy... tell that to FN who uses a chrome lined MG bbl for the tactical bolt gun.  Too many makers make accurate chrome lined bbls.
The manufacturers that are not lining the bbls are doing it to cut costs only, and I do not buy them.
Obviously, an unlined bbl, including a stailnless "match" bbl, is not as durable as one that is lined.  And I included the new "noveskish" bbls in that statement.  There is no way a stainless bbl will hold as well as a 4150 steel chrome line/ vanidium.
I don't buy bbls that are not mil spec.. including 4150 steel and lined/ vanidium.
I don't compromise on "liberty rifles"
JMO

Quoted: When a manuf. states - "chrome moly bbl"... that translates into - "we decided not to spend the money to chrome line the bbl" and we are counting on you not knowing the difference or convincing you that you don't need it. A chrome moly bbl is not mil spec if not chrome lined (oh yeah, vanidium) I can't figure out why I keep reading over and over, "that is all that is needed..."  why settle for a bbl that is not chrome lined when chrome lining only adds approx $4 to the cost of manufacturing the bbl and there is no dispute that a chrome lined bbl is superior? Because chrome-moly is supposed to be more accurate and not everyone wants a chrome lined because of it. That, and the manufacturers (my favorite, RRA is guilty of it) don't charge $4 more for the barrel. Anyone that offers them for extra money always offers them for $25, $30, $35, or $40 more. Therefore the chrome-lined barrels end up costing more than they should. I am not interested in hearing that chrome reduces accuracy... tell that to FN who uses a chrome lined MG bbl for the tactical bolt gun.  Too many makers make accurate chrome lined bbls.And I would be willing to bet there are just as many chrome-lined barrels out there that can't do better than 2-3MOA. The manufacturers that are not lining the bbls are doing it to cut costs only, and I do not buy them. Obviously, an unlined bbl, including a stailnless "match" bbl, is not as durable as one that is lined.  And I included the new "noveskish" bbls in that statement.  There is no way a stainless bbl will hold as well as a 4150 steel chrome line/ vanidium. I don't buy bbls that are not mil spec.. including 4150 steel and lined/ vanidium. I don't compromise on "liberty rifles" JMO

All that said, I don't plan on buying another un-lined barrel because I've had both of mine start to rust on me and I HATE rust.

WIZZO

Fug it, I'm gunna get me a Pewter lined barrel so I can fire silver bullets.hippie.gif

Anyway, Chrome Moly and Chrome lined is all about shooter preference!  I was mistaken, I meant that Chrome lined barrels were Mil Spec (my bad).  Chrome barrel lining is nothing new and has been around for decades.  The process is not new or novel.  Chrome lining reduces accuracy but increases durability from harsh environmental conditions (the rust factor).  Chrome lined barrels are more durable for full auto fire and wet environments (ie; Mil Spec).

Chrome Moly barrels are manufactured with a mixture of chrome and steel.  Most MATCH GRADE barrels are Chrome Moly or SS.  These barrels are more accurate and durable if cared for properly.

I would agree that Chrome Lined is a better choice for a CQB Urban assault rifle.  But, Chrome Moly is not as bad as some may think!

Ok, I may be preaching to the choir, but I feel it is important to inform those that don't know the difference that your Chrome Moly barrels are ritious!

unlined chromoly = cheap range toy

chrome lining = any serious use.  MOA = minute of dead with any combat rifle.

stainless = match accuracy.  Trade durability of chrome for more precision. Serious use if needed precision... sniper rifle.

There are plenty of bbls both chrome lined and unlined that will shoot 1 MOA or better and plenty more of both that can't shoot at all.

I expect that a novesk convert will say that I don't know what I talking about and stainless bbl are superior to mil spec 4150/chrome and that High speed guys go stainless b/c more accurate ,,,  blah blah.
I don't have anything against stainless, I have a walther stainless bbl on my AR10-T, and a Rock 5R bbl on my Mcmillian m70, but I know those bbls will not hold up to the use of the chrome lined 4150 bbls on my AR's.. which do see auto use btw. Each of my AR bbls will hold around one MOA.  The slight accuracy advantage of stainless is not worth the trade off on a combat rifle, IMO.  I do think stainless is OK on a long range precision rifle that is not likely to get heated up much anyway.  I do like the idea of the FN tactical rifle that uses the chrome lined bbl from the 240 MG, but I have not tried one b/c I already had the Mcmillian when the FN came out.  I can actually shoot a ragged hole in the paper at 200 with the Mcmillian, so I'll probably never try the FN unless I shoot someone else's.

wizzo, the worst part of a unlined chromoy bbl rusting is that it does not rust evenly b/c the steel and chrome are not uniformly mixed.  Therfore, the bbl will rust more were there is less chrome and rust less where there is more chrome.  Great for accuracy, huh?
Stainless is uniform in its composition, so it is smooth.  A well applied chrome lining is smooth also, but obviously not as smooth as stainless.

And yes, bbl makers stick it to us when they charge $40 to chrome a bbl that actually only increases cost a couple of dollars.  I buy from makers that chrome them standard, and I don't buy 4140 anything.  Although my next bbl is likely to be a Sabre Defense vanadium.  Sabre makes the M2 .50 cal bbl on my Abrams tank out of vanadium, so I expect it will hold up fine :)

Jeez, I just noticed that I mispelled vanAdium three times in my previous post.

Anyway, just my opinion... shoot straight

If you still can't decide, get a tust worthy nickle and flip it. I prefert the Bushy.

Bill

Quoted: Although my next bbl is likely to be a Sabre Defense vanadium.  Sabre makes the M2 .50 cal bbl on my Abrams tank out of vanadium, so I expect it will hold up fine :)

I have their middy barrel in 1/7, CL, gov't profile from Talon Arms. Great barrel.



WIZZO

wow this is turning into one long thread. Listen man, you said you wanted to know which is the best in terms of reliability, rust resistance, fit and finish.....I think that was your criteria. So here it is: Bushie and RRA will be the SAME in almost every appreciable way. Only difference is that RRA has a slightly better finish, at least in the opinion of some people. The difference in barrel steel is too silly really to even discuss.....I truly can't believe people go on about it. Unless you plan on converting this into a FA weapon and firing thousands and thousands of rounds, you will see no difference. Even with a select fire weapon, both barrels ought to do fine. It really is the like the stupid milled vs. stamped receiver argument that goes on about AKs....you probably will never see any difference, people just like to complain and argue. If the barrel steel issue REALLY bothers you then buy a Bushie barrel and swap it into your RRA. Then sell the RRA 16" on the equipment exchange. That way you can have the "better" barrel and not have lost much money.

if you are just looking for a bare bones AR then I would definetly go with the Bushy, it comes stock with a chromed line barrel and has 4150 barrel steel and RRA is non chrome lined and 4140 streel.

both are great ar's and I would have no problem buying an RRA as long as it's chrome lined but I think the 4150 steel gives the edge to bushy

I think someone's brought it up before but it comes down to options.  The bushy's m4 or patrolmans use a govt profile barrel, the RRA is heavy.  That's one thing to keep in mind.  I think the bushy is very light.  Almost too light.  But it's nice to fondle the different types to see what you like the best.    I think both give good service to their owners.  

Quoted: OK, I really, really want this!!!! i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/frankeva/nbgovt.gif RRA web-site Government Model (click here) At $2250, I think the Halo Sight is really driving up the price. Does anyone know if RRA will sell their Government Model with a detacheable A2 carry handle instead of the Halo sight? I will try e-mailing them. It's really cool how it says "Government Model" on it. It has the features I want, the quad rail, 16" Chrome lined barrel, collapsible stock. Again, it doesn't say if the Flash hider is detacheable. I Don't want one that is permanent, so I can eventually mount a class III suppressor. Hell, if they can't, I might just get the Carry Handle as an add on. Little more than I want to spend though.. Your thoughts? Thanks guys Frank

I think you can still get brand new RRA lowers with the Government markings on them. Find the upper you want, slap them together and your set. And still have enough for an ACOG.

In my opinion you CAN NOT go wrong with either.  If it were me I would go with Bushy because Ive been shooting them for awhile and havent had problems,(so why change).

I have one of everything, except Rock River, so at a gun show last weekend I bought a stripped lower from a Dealer I have seen around for many years.  I trust him.

The Lower looked very nice and I got a confirmed fair price, no special deal.  The lower is crap.  Not made to mil spec and will not fit a single upper that I own.  Non of my Bushmaster uppers fit.  My DPMS in 6.8mm did not fit.  The Colt did not fit, either.

One pin would go in the other was off by 30 or 40 thousandths.  Visible miss-alignment.  I got a few to pin front only, but then the back pin was way off and the upper would not hinge properly on the lower due to binding at the front hinge.

I measured with a caliper and found that the front TD pin hole was almost 40 thousandths too far back in the receiver.  Bad Pin spacing!  Some further checking also showed that the extensioin tube threaded opening at the back of the receiver was not centered in the lower, also visibly miss-aligned, too low.

I am calling RRA today to find out if I got a second, or what?  This upper should never have made it out of the plant.  I will update this post when I have more info.

My first experience with RRA products does not make me interested in buying more.

I have built at least 50 guns (AR15 type rifles) over the years and never seen anything as bad as this lower and it wears the RRA logo!  Makes me wonder what all the positive hype is on them, maybe just good advertising?

I will stick with tried and true Bushmaster Components from now on and I think you should too!  Only had one minor problem with a Bushmaster ever and they replaced the part, no questions asked.

   I like Bushmaster personaly. I've had two of their rifles that have shot flawlessly.  The fact that they're barrels come chrome lined and use 4150 is what I like. One of the only things that had me looking at the rock river was the N.M trigger. It is nice, but I'd rather take the better steel and chrome lining over the trigger. Fit and Finish is good on my Bushys, if they're is a little play the recivers, it's ok with me, I can handle a little slop. Considering it's a little looser, it should make it a little more reliable when dirty. I'll trade a little accuracy for reliability, especially out of a combat carbine.


Rock Rivers are fine guns though. I had an oppritunity to shoot one a little while back and liked it. I just think the Bushmaster is better equipped as a combat rifle. The DEA test and all that really mean nothing to me. I bet bottom dollar it's about price. I'm sure they're was a reason that Bushmaster decided not to go ahead further with testing with the DEA. Maybe they already knew that they weren't gonna accept the price that the DEA was willing to pay for their guns and decided it pointless to even waste time in the runnings. If a person is basing anything on Contracts though, just look at Blackwater. They are  "The Chosen ones" for Blackwater  Security sending people into a real warzone! I guess they also just picked up by the Texas Department of Safety.

Lots of individual police officers equip themselves with Bushmaster rifles. I work in a gunstore and a majority of police officers that I see  buy Bushmaster. That could be different in other areas, and  really has no bearing though, since they probably do what we do when researching a new firearm (get online) but I figure if it's good enough for them to trust aswell, then it should be good enough for me. I was thinking about getting an RRA for a while,  just for a differnet flavor, bur I realize now because of this thread that they're is no point. My Bushmaster already offers me all that I want except for the 2 stage trigger wich I can easily buy and drop in. Maybe I'll get an RRA someday, but I think I'm just gonna buy another Bushy today.

Tailgunner -- Sorry to hear about your problems with that stripped lower..........makes you wonder why someone was getting rid of it. I guess you are certain it is a RRA.

The reason I ask.........is part of the test the DEA / FBI required on their AR type rifles [ before they bought RRA ] was a "Parts switch test"  They took several weapons into the field and had them taken apart..........and the parts put back together on DIFFERENT weapons.........and those weapons had to fucntion flawlessly. RRA passed [ obviously ] this test with no problems. Others did not..........

So I am baffled at the problem you have described........keep us informed at what you find out. Very interesting to know what RRA says.

JF.

I kind of like the RR.  Here is mine with the tactical handle.

I like RRA - Accurate / Perfect fit upper and lower / and a for ever warranty, but with saying that this time around I may try a Noveske rifle . ( Yes SS barrel )

buy both, come on don't be a wuss

"I have built at least 50 guns (AR15 type rifles) over the years and never seen anything as bad as this lower and it wears the RRA logo! Makes me wonder what all the positive hype is on them, maybe just good advertising?"


You need to post this in the industry forum.

If it is out of spec they might take care of you.

The warranty is "limited" and only good to the original purchaser.

Quoted:    I like Bushmaster personaly. I've had two of their rifles that have shot flawlessly.  The fact that they're barrels come chrome lined and use 4150 is what I like. One of the only things that had me looking at the rock river was the N.M trigger. It is nice, but I'd rather take the better steel and chrome lining over the trigger. Fit and Finish is good on my Bushys, if they're is a little play the recivers, it's ok with me, I can handle a little slop. Considering it's a little looser, it should make it a little more reliable when dirty. I'll trade a little accuracy for reliability, especially out of a combat carbine. Rock Rivers are fine guns though. I had an oppritunity to shoot one a little while back and liked it. I just think the Bushmaster is better equipped as a combat rifle. The DEA test and all that really mean nothing to me. I bet bottom dollar it's about price. I'm sure they're was a reason that Bushmaster decided not to go ahead further with testing with the DEA. Maybe they already knew that they weren't gonna accept the price that the DEA was willing to pay for their guns and decided it pointless to even waste time in the runnings. If a person is basing anything on Contracts though, just look at Blackwater. They are  "The Chosen ones" for Blackwater  Security sending people into a real warzone! I guess they also just picked up by the Texas Department of Safety. Lots of individual police officers equip themselves with Bushmaster rifles. I work in a gunstore and a majority of police officers that I see  buy Bushmaster. That could be different in other areas, and  really has no bearing though, since they probably do what we do when researching a new firearm (get online) but I figure if it's good enough for them to trust aswell, then it should be good enough for me. I was thinking about getting an RRA for a while,  just for a differnet flavor, bur I realize now because of this thread that they're is no point. My Bushmaster already offers me all that I want except for the 2 stage trigger wich I can easily buy and drop in. Maybe I'll get an RRA someday, but I think I'm just gonna buy another Bushy today.

So the DEA/DHS/DOJ gave RRA a contract because they lowballed the bid, but they premium dollar for Colt and SIG, is that what we are supposed to believe

You say contracts mean nothing but then you validate Bushy with Blackwater and Texas Department of security?

If I can quote mongo "Thinking twice and posting once"

If it helps at all price-wise, I built this thing for probably ~$1100.  My first foray into AR's so its do-able by any beginner IMO.  My AR

Quoted: Quoted:    I like Bushmaster personaly. I've had two of their rifles that have shot flawlessly.  The fact that they're barrels come chrome lined and use 4150 is what I like. One of the only things that had me looking at the rock river was the N.M trigger. It is nice, but I'd rather take the better steel and chrome lining over the trigger. Fit and Finish is good on my Bushys, if they're is a little play the recivers, it's ok with me, I can handle a little slop. Considering it's a little looser, it should make it a little more reliable when dirty. I'll trade a little accuracy for reliability, especially out of a combat carbine. Rock Rivers are fine guns though. I had an oppritunity to shoot one a little while back and liked it. I just think the Bushmaster is better equipped as a combat rifle. The DEA test and all that really mean nothing to me. I bet bottom dollar it's about price. I'm sure they're was a reason that Bushmaster decided not to go ahead further with testing with the DEA. Maybe they already knew that they weren't gonna accept the price that the DEA was willing to pay for their guns and decided it pointless to even waste time in the runnings. If a person is basing anything on Contracts though, just look at Blackwater. They are  "The Chosen ones" for Blackwater  Security sending people into a real warzone! I guess they also just picked up by the Texas Department of Safety. Lots of individual police officers equip themselves with Bushmaster rifles. I work in a gunstore and a majority of police officers that I see  buy Bushmaster. That could be different in other areas, and  really has no bearing though, since they probably do what we do when researching a new firearm (get online) but I figure if it's good enough for them to trust aswell, then it should be good enough for me. I was thinking about getting an RRA for a while,  just for a differnet flavor, bur I realize now because of this thread that they're is no point. My Bushmaster already offers me all that I want except for the 2 stage trigger wich I can easily buy and drop in. Maybe I'll get an RRA someday, but I think I'm just gonna buy another Bushy today. So the DEA/DHS/DOJ gave RRA a contract because they lowballed the bid, but they premium dollar for Colt and SIG, is that what we are supposed to believe You say contracts mean nothing but then you validate Bushy with Blackwater and Texas Department of security? If I can quote mongo "Thinking twice and posting once"

Why don't you re-read what I wrote. Do you see the part about "If a person is basing anything on contracts" I'm not validating anything other than Bushmaster has big contracts aswell. A contract doesn't really mean shit since it takes more than just a good rifle to make a deal. I'm sure pricing fell in they're somewhere for the Bushmaster aswell. From what I have read on THIS website, Colt got the contract with the Military more out of  default than anything else. I don't know what the hell your talking about with the whole Sig thing. Lots of Agencys use Sig, and some use Glock, and some use HK, so what? What are you getting at ? All I was trying to do was state my OPINION that the Bushmaster was the better gun, is that OK with you?

rra 100% from my side by side comparison. they beat all the others hands down on quality, features, fit & finish, price and warranty. i looked around for a long time for a black rifle. i was worse than a woman window shopping at the mall. i held and shot everything on the market from colt to olympic to dpms to bushy(sorry no stags) and i was just obvious on what to get. i mean you get two stage national match trigger that was lighter and crisper than any of the other factor guns. hogue grips on most if not its a 10$ option, the option for m4 style carbine or mid length handgaurds, wilson barrels with the option to chome line for those who prefer (how many other guns do you own that dont have chrome linning and had problems with?) garrantied to shoot 1"moa at 100 yds (1 1/2" with chrome linning)even the finish on the front sight was supperior. im not saying all the others arent good guns but it was the difference between buying a suburban or an escalade for the same price. do your own side by side comparison and you'll see right away.

Quoted: My vote is to build one yourself.

Ditto, its what I am doing. I already have a stag arms A2 lower half. The quality was above what I expected for a company whos insignia is a giant deer. Actually spot on. Also have a CMT upper and enhanced bolt carrier assembly and badger mod1/cmt handle dealie on the way.

Just having a bitch of a time finding the right barrel for my tastes. I want something along the lines of a chrome-moly middy with no chrome and 1:7.... doesn't exist as of yet to my knowledge.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:    I like Bushmaster personaly. I've had two of their rifles that have shot flawlessly.  The fact that they're barrels come chrome lined and use 4150 is what I like. One of the only things that had me looking at the rock river was the N.M trigger. It is nice, but I'd rather take the better steel and chrome lining over the trigger. Fit and Finish is good on my Bushys, if they're is a little play the recivers, it's ok with me, I can handle a little slop. Considering it's a little looser, it should make it a little more reliable when dirty. I'll trade a little accuracy for reliability, especially out of a combat carbine. Rock Rivers are fine guns though. I had an oppritunity to shoot one a little while back and liked it. I just think the Bushmaster is better equipped as a combat rifle. The DEA test and all that really mean nothing to me. I bet bottom dollar it's about price. I'm sure they're was a reason that Bushmaster decided not to go ahead further with testing with the DEA. Maybe they already knew that they weren't gonna accept the price that the DEA was willing to pay for their guns and decided it pointless to even waste time in the runnings. If a person is basing anything on Contracts though, just look at Blackwater. They are  "The Chosen ones" for Blackwater  Security sending people into a real warzone! I guess they also just picked up by the Texas Department of Safety. Lots of individual police officers equip themselves with Bushmaster rifles. I work in a gunstore and a majority of police officers that I see  buy Bushmaster. That could be different in other areas, and  really has no bearing though, since they probably do what we do when researching a new firearm (get online) but I figure if it's good enough for them to trust aswell, then it should be good enough for me. I was thinking about getting an RRA for a while,  just for a differnet flavor, bur I realize now because of this thread that they're is no point. My Bushmaster already offers me all that I want except for the 2 stage trigger wich I can easily buy and drop in. Maybe I'll get an RRA someday, but I think I'm just gonna buy another Bushy today. So the DEA/DHS/DOJ gave RRA a contract because they lowballed the bid, but they premium dollar for Colt and SIG, is that what we are supposed to believe You say contracts mean nothing but then you validate Bushy with Blackwater and Texas Department of security? If I can quote mongo "Thinking twice and posting once" Why don't you re-read what I wrote. Do you see the part about "If a person is basing anything on contracts" I'm not validating anything other than Bushmaster has big contracts aswell. A contract doesn't really mean shit since it takes more than just a good rifle to make a deal. I'm sure pricing fell in they're somewhere for the Bushmaster aswell. From what I have read on THIS website, Colt got the contract with the Military more out of  default than anything else. I don't know what the hell your talking about with the whole Sig thing. Lots of Agencys use Sig, and some use Glock, and some use HK, so what? What are you getting at ? All I was trying to do was state my OPINION that the Bushmaster was the better gun, is that OK with you?

No it's not okay. I think your post is misinformed posing as poingnant. You mention the DEA trials and RRA getting it because of price when you dont even know that Bushmaster didnt take part in the DEA trials, for one, and the DEA/DHS/DOJ trials resulted in SIG, Colt and RRA getting contracts, and RRA was the only company to complete the trials from beginning to end without failing anything.

I happen to own two 20" Bushmasters and an RRA entry tactical. Granted I think RRA is the better weapon, but I cant tolerate babble posting and misinformation used to back an "opinion"

You mention 4140 vs 4150, but can you even tell me what the metallurgica differences are, or are you just repeating what someone told you, and did zero research yourself on the failure threshold of 4140 steel. Bad enough we have Colt lemmings, we dont need bushmaster lemmings too

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:    I like Bushmaster personaly. I've had two of their rifles that have shot flawlessly.  The fact that they're barrels come chrome lined and use 4150 is what I like. One of the only things that had me looking at the rock river was the N.M trigger. It is nice, but I'd rather take the better steel and chrome lining over the trigger. Fit and Finish is good on my Bushys, if they're is a little play the recivers, it's ok with me, I can handle a little slop. Considering it's a little looser, it should make it a little more reliable when dirty. I'll trade a little accuracy for reliability, especially out of a combat carbine. Rock Rivers are fine guns though. I had an oppritunity to shoot one a little while back and liked it. I just think the Bushmaster is better equipped as a combat rifle. The DEA test and all that really mean nothing to me. I bet bottom dollar it's about price. I'm sure they're was a reason that Bushmaster decided not to go ahead further with testing with the DEA. Maybe they already knew that they weren't gonna accept the price that the DEA was willing to pay for their guns and decided it pointless to even waste time in the runnings. If a person is basing anything on Contracts though, just look at Blackwater. They are  "The Chosen ones" for Blackwater  Security sending people into a real warzone! I guess they also just picked up by the Texas Department of Safety. Lots of individual police officers equip themselves with Bushmaster rifles. I work in a gunstore and a majority of police officers that I see  buy Bushmaster. That could be different in other areas, and  really has no bearing though, since they probably do what we do when researching a new firearm (get online) but I figure if it's good enough for them to trust aswell, then it should be good enough for me. I was thinking about getting an RRA for a while,  just for a differnet flavor, bur I realize now because of this thread that they're is no point. My Bushmaster already offers me all that I want except for the 2 stage trigger wich I can easily buy and drop in. Maybe I'll get an RRA someday, but I think I'm just gonna buy another Bushy today. So the DEA/DHS/DOJ gave RRA a contract because they lowballed the bid, but they premium dollar for Colt and SIG, is that what we are supposed to believe You say contracts mean nothing but then you validate Bushy with Blackwater and Texas Department of security? If I can quote mongo "Thinking twice and posting once" Why don't you re-read what I wrote. Do you see the part about "If a person is basing anything on contracts" I'm not validating anything other than Bushmaster has big contracts aswell. A contract doesn't really mean shit since it takes more than just a good rifle to make a deal. I'm sure pricing fell in they're somewhere for the Bushmaster aswell. From what I have read on THIS website, Colt got the contract with the Military more out of  default than anything else. I don't know what the hell your talking about with the whole Sig thing. Lots of Agencys use Sig, and some use Glock, and some use HK, so what? What are you getting at ? All I was trying to do was state my OPINION that the Bushmaster was the better gun, is that OK with you? No it's not okay. I think your post is misinformed posing as poingnant. You mention the DEA trials and RRA getting it because of price when you dont even know that Bushmaster didnt take part in the DEA trials, for one, and the DEA/DHS/DOJ trials resulted in SIG, Colt and RRA getting contracts, and RRA was the only company to complete the trials from beginning to end without failing anything. I happen to own two 20" Bushmasters and an RRA entry tactical. Granted I think RRA is the better weapon, but I cant tolerate babble posting and misinformation used to back an "opinion" You mention 4140 vs 4150, but can you even tell me what the metallurgica differences are, or are you just repeating what someone told you, and did zero research yourself on the failure threshold of 4140 steel. Bad enough we have Colt lemmings, we dont need bushmaster lemmings too

Well you just let me know where anything I said was misinformed and not just speculation. Anyone can specutlate anything. I said I BET price has a lot to do with getting contracts. I don't know what all played a part in the trials, and really I could could give a shit. RRA has a contract, big deal. Contracts mean virtually nothing considering more factors other than just a good rifle go into getting them. The only reason I said something about the bushmaster contracts was just to show that they had contracts too, not to base anything off it. Like I said before, I'm sure price played a part in they're contracts aswell.No I'm not a metalurgist and can't tell you the real differance between them, but I can tell you witch one is better.  Doesn't matter if I will ever use it or not, bottom line is 4150 is better, are you gonna argue that now? Just like airbags in a car, I probably will never have to use them, but it's good to know they are there. I have put no misinformation out there to back my opinion, only speculation as to why some things have happend. You can go on thinking your little RRA rifle is the best  thing since sliced bread, and I think my Bushmaster is the better weapon and we'll leave it at that.

Man this sure sounds like a Ford vs. Chevy question and answer session. Both have a large following of owners with great success. Both rifles will serve you well enough that you'll never wish you bought the other brand. Both companies got their status of excellent quality by selling thousands of excellent guns, and both will continue to do so for a very long time. Disregard the randon guy who pops up saying he bought one brand or the other and how bad it was or telling you nightmare stories of some failure. Every gun maker out there has had a bad gun slip through inspection and get out in the public, but we don't judge everything on just one gun. You will get excellent service with both compaines. I own both and both rifles work flawlessly. Which is better???..............we'll still be debating it for 20 years in the mean time pick one and get busy shooting.

oh just a little bit of info. the rra dea and fbi rifles are chrome lined barrels

here is an article from guns magazine on the the actual test and the dea gun

www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/gm_oct04.pdf

Love my bushy M4.

see  bushmaster law enforcement link:
www.bushmaster.com/le/agencies.htm