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Posted: 12/25/2005 10:30:48 AM EDT
This is probably a stupid question but o well... Since wolf ammo has steel casings does these steel casings wear your gun in anyway... steel casing going into a steel chamber/steel casing hitting aluminum receiver? I always shoot WWB but thought I would try some wolf for bumpfiring since its cheaper. Now I know that some people think bumpfiring is stupid so lets not get into that discussion. Well what do ya guys think...?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:36:23 AM EDT
It works fine. The casing never hits any aluminum when going through the gun.

If your gun doesn't run Wolf, it's not set up correctly.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:40:13 AM EDT
Does anyone know of any brass cased ammo thats almost as cheap as wolf? Ive seen some olympic 1000rds for 140.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:45:56 AM EDT
I've heard nothing but bad things about Olympic ammo.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:46:09 AM EDT
The only Olympic I have tried was 9mm and for some reason it would not run well in my UZI, Sten, or Beretta 12. These guns have run thousands of rounds of all sorts of shit and never had a problem, so I am not sure what the issue is with it. The Oly ammo did run fine in my 9mm M16 though.

I am sure I could tweak the other guns to run Olympic ammo, but I'll just run something else and save the hassle.



Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:05:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:22:20 AM EDT
Ya...i figured that the steel in the gun was alot stonger than the casings but i figured i would ask since its steel aginst steel. So I should pretty much stay away from olympic?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:30:20 AM EDT
I never tried it in .223. Just because I had some malfuctions in the 9mm version in multiple subguns, doesn't lead me to believe that all Olympic ammo is crap, unless I try it.



Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:37:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 11:45:07 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:42:43 AM EDT
"Question about using Wolf.."


Answer: Don't.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:47:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Covert8645:
"Question about using Wolf.."


Answer: Don't.




Could you explain why?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:51:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 11:52:11 AM EDT by SirDrinksAlot]

Originally Posted By dmcblaster:

Originally Posted By Covert8645:
"Question about using Wolf.."


Answer: Don't.




Could you explain why?



Because it causes twice as much wear as brass cased ammo does.

Why?

Because your able to by twice as much for the same price!


/wolf user, never had an issue with wolf either.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:56:42 AM EDT
The old laquer wolf stunk to high heaven.. the new stuff just smells wierd.

And no, it won't hurt your gun... Just use lots of carb cleaner
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:02:54 PM EDT
Winchester white box in the 40rd Value Pack comes out to $193.25 plus sales tax at Wal-Mart ($7.73 a 40rd box). I buy the local Wal-Marts out every time they have it in stock, usually about 10 boxes at a time. That is only a little more than what Wolf costs locally at Sportsman's Warehouse, maybe $40 or so more a case. Excellent reloadable (or resellable) brass.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:04:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:20:52 PM EDT
Yes i did...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:42:53 PM EDT
I shot close to 1000 rds of olympic wout any problems in my BM and colt
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 1:11:56 PM EDT
This is just MY OPINION, it's not something that I'm static as a fact, just my thoughts:

1.) I think Wolf ammo is just shit, period. I've heard too many stories of Wolf rounds coming loose from the jacket, jamming in the barrel, and just having one nice bumblefuck with people's rifles.

2.) It's Russian ammo, I'm not saying all Russian ammo is crap, I use to have a Russian/Czech Mauser, and so I know from the Wolf 8mm rounds that they are dirty as hell and from my experience, unreliable.

3.) Federal ammunition isn't much more expensive, and in my opinion, it's better. Cleaner, more accurate, and more reliable brass.

4.) Save a rifle... Buy something else.

Again, I'm not saying these are hard proven facts, they're just my experience and personal thoughts, so I don't wanna hear "OoOoOooh and where did you find THOSE facts Mr. Smartypants?!" and have a flame-athon.


-Covert
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 1:16:09 PM EDT
Wolf wont hurt anything but it's dirty. It isn't 100 percent reliable in my AR so I don't use it anymore. Bump firing isn't stupid it's fun!!!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:29:28 PM EDT
~dirty, and leaves red stuff on the bolt face
~doesnt seem as accurate
~seems to have less felt recoil

BUT it still goes bang every time, for me at least.

I normally buy Rem. UMC, or WWB. The WWB @ 40/$7.73...so $3.87 per 20. Not much more than wolf, and seems to be better overall. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:35:06 PM EDT
Ill just stick with the WWB! Just have to limit myself on bumping...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:41:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
~dirty, and leaves red stuff on the bolt face +1 clean your chamber and bolt well and you should not have any problems for punching paper .

~doesnt seem as accurate
~seems to have less felt recoil

BUT it still goes bang every time, for me at least.

I normally buy Rem. UMC, or WWB. The WWB @ 40/$7.73...so $3.87 per 20. Not much more than wolf, and seems to be better overall. YMMV

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:47:47 PM EDT
If your rifle is a toy used for making noise, and punching holes in paper, and you dont care how close togather those holes are, then wolf is fine.

if your rifle is a weapon, zeroed for proper duty ammo, then shoting anything, including wolf, that has a very different point of impact, recoil impulse, muzzle blast, flash, and trajectory is a counteractive to good training.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:13:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
If your rifle is a toy used for making noise, and punching holes in paper, and you dont care how close togather those holes are, then wolf is fine.

if your rifle is a weapon, zeroed for proper duty ammo, then shoting anything, including wolf, that has a very different point of impact, recoil impulse, muzzle blast, flash, and trajectory is a counteractive to good training.



Funny how people say this when it comes to rifles, but don't really care about putting crap like WWB through pistols and calling it "training".

I plan to use the same shooting practices with my AR as my pistol. Zero and get SOME practice with the carry/defensive ammo occasionally, and shoot whatever is cheap and works for all else. Generally a couple mags a range session just to make sure my sights are still on and my shit is still together.

After that, I pretty much don't care where POI as long at it's still on the paper. I'm okay on a rest,but offhand with irons I'd have a hard time outshooting most gun/ammo combos I've used, with the exception of my K31 that I seem to shoot better than any thing I own.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:21:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathon:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
If your rifle is a toy used for making noise, and punching holes in paper, and you dont care how close togather those holes are, then wolf is fine.

if your rifle is a weapon, zeroed for proper duty ammo, then shoting anything, including wolf, that has a very different point of impact, recoil impulse, muzzle blast, flash, and trajectory is a counteractive to good training.



Funny how people say this when it comes to rifles, but don't really care about putting crap like WWB through pistols and calling it "training".



My training ammo for .45's is WWB. For .40s its 180Gn GDHP. For 9's its RA9T. Those are also my carry loads and what my pistols are zeroed for..
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:12:36 PM EDT
Wolf is SSSOOOOOOOOO BBAAADDDDDDD!!!!

Don't shoot it. If you do, it will rape your wife, shoot your dog, and start rumors about you.



I keep buying the stuff. I've been through about 8 or 9 cases in the past 2.5 years and have been pleased with it's performance.

And to the Einstein that said it's close to Federal prices, where the hell can you buy a case of Federal for $120 shipped

WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:17:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 12:48:39 PM EDT by Helldog40]
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:28:13 AM EDT



And to the Einstein that said it's close to Federal prices, where the hell can you buy a case of Federal for $120 shipped

WIZZO



It was around $140 for the case, and it was from an old FFL buddy of mine who was dating a relative :-). Use to get cases of Federal and Black Hills Match Grade from him alot. It wasn't discounted to me, he sold those prices to everyone he dealt with.

Just depends on where you are, who the seller is, and if there's a shortage or not.


-Covert
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:42:00 AM EDT
I shot Wolf ammo in all my guns RRA Elite CAR A4, Romanian AK47, Ruger Mini 30, SKS, SA compact .45, SA XD9, Taurus PT111, with 0 problems. Maybe a little dirty, but that is what cleaning solution is for. If a gun won't shoot it, get it fixed or get one that will shoot it. I wouldn't own a gun that wouldn't shoot Wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:52:51 AM EDT
The only bad thing about Wolf is that you don't feel bad burning through tons of ammo for each range session. I tend to be very stingy with my "good" Winchester 3131A or m193. I like Wolf so much I run it in my .45, 9mm, and AK. If it works for YOU, buy some and enjoy shooting.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:56:59 AM EDT
I would have to agree with all of the above posters. Wolf has always run fine in my Colts, both the old laquered stuff and the new polymer fodder. My two complaints about it are its odor and the fact that it is on the lower end of the power spectrum. I think Wolf ammo is unfairly maligned by people who have ARs that don't work and are laying blame where it doesn't really belong.

Brewer
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:01:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My training ammo for .45's is WWB. For .40s its 180Gn GDHP. For 9's its RA9T. Those are also my carry loads and what my pistols are zeroed for..



Easy to do when someone else is picking up the tab for your ammo (like your department).
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:39:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 8:45:12 AM EDT by cmm]
I use Wolf to "qualify" my rifles. If wolf won't cycle it properly or if it exhibits any hiccups, then the rifle is not reliable enough. As far as steel casing and wear, you'd probably burn your barrel out first before steel case induced wear becomes an issue. And for those that won't shoot wolf because it "smells" bad, you guys need a better excuse than that.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:55:13 AM EDT
+1
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:15:44 AM EDT
I have yet to try Wolf in my AR. But I DO use Barnaul's .223 (labeled as "Monarch" at Academy Sporting Goods stores), and it's fine. It has the "traditional" lacquered steel cases and military primer seal on it; these do not accumulate in my rifle. Note that I HAVE had Winchester white box pistol ammo gum up my pistols with too much primer sealer, so I know what to look for, and there's no sign of it from Barnaul. And it's "affordable," too. Try $3.00 for a box on for size.

As for "training," just what are you training for? For trigger discipline and basic rifle skills, any ammunition that fires reliably and can manage ~2MOA from a machine rest is more than good enough.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 4:56:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 4:56:25 PM EDT by J75player]
i havnt used it much personaly....
however, my mother-in-law has used it for the last 10 years or so in her Chinese built SKS.
they didnt even know that there was a cleaning kit in the butstock untill I showed them 5 years ago and showed them how to use it.
that SKS has never had a misfire, jam or otherwise, and it took 2 deer last year.

now if someone is saying that this 40 some-odd year old Russian designed, Chinese rifle can handle Wolf and my modern American built CAR15 cant.....then well.....

dam
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:11:02 PM EDT
Wolf is fine to shoot. Don't let people scare you off. Try it through your gun and you'll see.

Most negative things said about Wolf are through ingnorance. I've had more ammo problems with Mil surplus ammo than I have with Wolf.

It is more than good enough for practice/punching holes. As far as it being extremely inaccurate, I'd have to say that in examples I've seen 1-2" difference in groups @ 100 meters is acceptable when compared to the price of other brands.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:28:54 PM EDT
it's fine, if it won't cycle it's your rifle. Mine jammed a few times when I first got it, 100% for 6 years.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:27:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By J75player:
i havnt used it much personaly....
however, my mother-in-law has used it for the last 10 years or so in her Chinese built SKS.
they didnt even know that there was a cleaning kit in the butstock untill I showed them 5 years ago and showed them how to use it.
that SKS has never had a misfire, jam or otherwise, and it took 2 deer last year.

now if someone is saying that this 40 some-odd year old Russian designed, Chinese rifle can handle Wolf and my modern American built CAR15 cant.....then well.....

dam



Keep in mind that the Russian designed, Chinese built SKS was designed with steel case ammo in mind, your modern American build CAR-15 wasn't. SKS's, while tighter than the typical AK, are still built with a lot looser clearances and looser tolerances than most AR's. Also, an SKS is a < $250 rifle, an AR is a > $500 rifle. I prefer to treat my expensive rifles better than cheap ones.

I've got an SKS, an AK, AR-15, M1A, etc... I will happily run steel case ammo through the com-bloc rifles, but I only use brass case ammo in my domestic rifles.

The small cost savings of Wolf .223 compared to Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle isn't worth the risk to me. Also, I've typically found Wolf dirtier and less accurate, and the cost savings is significantly less when you compare the value of the spent brass I recover when I shoot WWB (I reload it and shoot it in my Mini-14).
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:32:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KillAgain:
It is more than good enough for practice/punching holes. As far as it being extremely inaccurate, I'd have to say that in examples I've seen 1-2" difference in groups @ 100 meters is acceptable when compared to the price of other brands.



1-2" difference is acceptable? That would be at least a 25-50% increase in group size from what I've typically seen with Winchester White box! Given that Wolf ammo is less than 25% less expensive, dirtier and not reloadable, that makes it a poor value in my book.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:47:11 PM EDT
I've shot about 500 rounds of Wolf .223 thru a Rock River Elite CAR W/stainless 1in8 wylde chamber with zero problems. Fired about 150 rounds Wolf .308 in a Cetme w/ zero problems. The 62 grain wolf shoots well for me. Last range shoot I got 4" groups @ 200 yards with an eotech & 48 year old eyeswith my AR.I will use it .Good, cheap, & accurate for me.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:28:41 PM EDT
Don't let the snobs keep you from trying Wolf. Compare 1000rnds of Wolf to 1000rnds of WWB. $120 vs $200. Now factor in time.

Lets just say you fire 20,000rnds of WWB over the years. Thats 20 Cases at $200 a case. Total is $4000.

Now lets say you fire 20,000rnds of Wolf over the years with your AR. Thats 20 Cases at $120 a case. Total is $2400.

Now some simple math. $4000-$2400=$1600

$1600 is enough to get yourself a nice fancy new Colt LE6920.

How's that for all you Wolf haters???

CMS - Coltaide drinker
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:52:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 7:53:06 PM EDT by gmtmaster]

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By J75player:
i havnt used it much personaly....
however, my mother-in-law has used it for the last 10 years or so in her Chinese built SKS.
they didnt even know that there was a cleaning kit in the butstock untill I showed them 5 years ago and showed them how to use it.
that SKS has never had a misfire, jam or otherwise, and it took 2 deer last year.

now if someone is saying that this 40 some-odd year old Russian designed, Chinese rifle can handle Wolf and my modern American built CAR15 cant.....then well.....

dam



Keep in mind that the Russian designed, Chinese built SKS was designed with steel case ammo in mind, your modern American build CAR-15 wasn't. SKS's, while tighter than the typical AK, are still built with a lot looser clearances and looser tolerances than most AR's. Also, an SKS is a < $250 rifle, an AR is a > $500 rifle. I prefer to treat my expensive rifles better than cheap ones.

I've got an SKS, an AK, AR-15, M1A, etc... I will happily run steel case ammo through the com-bloc rifles, but I only use brass case ammo in my domestic rifles.

The small cost savings of Wolf .223 compared to Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle isn't worth the risk to me. Also, I've typically found Wolf dirtier and less accurate, and the cost savings is significantly less when you compare the value of the spent brass I recover when I shoot WWB (I reload it and shoot it in my Mini-14).



What does tighter tolerances have to do with anything? A .223 Wolf round is the same size as a .223 WWB round... The steel in the case is softer than your chamber.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:53:39 PM EDT
I run the new Wolf polymer in everything. My oly, my Model 1 beater, my Clark Custom Gator...they all eat it without problem and the Gator gets 1.5 MOA! (the Model 1 is closer to 2.5-3 MOA)

Great for practicing 20-50 yard IPSC courses and the um...occasional....bump fire.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:28:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:10:35 PM EDT
Well I was at my local gun shop and the wolf was just callin my name so I got 2 boxes to try out. Seems like 50% say use it and 50% say no...so ill try it. I opened up the box and they are the new casings..but im not really liking all that red primer sealant. I know one guy said something about the red sealant on his bolt...anyone else see this? Im gonna stack the wolf with the WWB and see if i can tell any differance in recoil. After I shoot em ill put in my 2 cents. In a way I hope they work out for me so i dont have to blow so much money to bumpfire but for now im for using the WWB for all my firing.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:03:24 PM EDT
Many Mil-spec (I am in NO WAY saying Wolf is Mil-spec) rounds have the red primer sealant as well.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:24:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:


Keep in mind that the Russian designed, Chinese built SKS was designed with steel case ammo in mind, your modern American build CAR-15 wasn't.



Got a source for those claims? What is involved in "designing" a gun around a steel case and what poof is there that either carbine was designed around a particular type of case?

The 1911 cases were steel in WWII, was it "designed" around a steel case?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:24:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By J75player:
i havnt used it much personaly....
however, my mother-in-law has used it for the last 10 years or so in her Chinese built SKS.
they didnt even know that there was a cleaning kit in the butstock untill I showed them 5 years ago and showed them how to use it.
that SKS has never had a misfire, jam or otherwise, and it took 2 deer last year.

now if someone is saying that this 40 some-odd year old Russian designed, Chinese rifle can handle Wolf and my modern American built CAR15 cant.....then well.....

dam



Keep in mind that the Russian designed, Chinese built SKS was designed with steel case ammo in mind, your modern American build CAR-15 wasn't. SKS's, while tighter than the typical AK, are still built with a lot looser clearances and looser tolerances than most AR's. Also, an SKS is a < $250 rifle, an AR is a > $500 rifle. I prefer to treat my expensive rifles better than cheap ones.

I've got an SKS, an AK, AR-15, M1A, etc... I will happily run steel case ammo through the com-bloc rifles, but I only use brass case ammo in my domestic rifles.

The small cost savings of Wolf .223 compared to Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle isn't worth the risk to me. Also, I've typically found Wolf dirtier and less accurate, and the cost savings is significantly less when you compare the value of the spent brass I recover when I shoot WWB (I reload it and shoot it in my Mini-14).



What does tighter tolerances have to do with anything? A .223 Wolf round is the same size as a .223 WWB round... The steel in the case is softer than your chamber.



Tighter tolerances matter when you are shooting large amounts of dirty ammo. A tight rifle will typically gum up and jam sooner than a loose one. While the mild steel in cases is softer than the chamber in an AR barrel, it is still a lot harder than brass. While the difference may not be a lot, its definitely there.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:29:52 PM EDT
Ive seen some pretty dirty brass cased stuff.....
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:35:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fc7mm:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Keep in mind that the Russian designed, Chinese built SKS was designed with steel case ammo in mind, your modern American build CAR-15 wasn't.



Got a source for those claims? What is involved in "designing" a gun around a steel case and what poof is there that either carbine was designed around a particular type of case?

The 1911 cases were steel in WWII, was it "designed" around a steel case?



I've got plenty of .45 ACP cases with headstamps in the 30's and 40's that are brass, so while a certain amount of wartime production may have gone to steel in desperation, it certainly wasn't what John Moses Browning had in mind when he designed the 1911 many years before WWII. Certainly if they had adequate supplies of brass, they would not have used steel cases, as they reverted to brass as soon as the war was over. If the Russians and Chinese didn't plan on their rifles primarily being used with steel case ammo, they were crazy (and that I doubt). Almost all of the mil-surp com-bloc ammo from the 40's to the 70's is steel case. Conversely there was pretty much no significant amount of steel case .223 Rem/5.56 NATO ammo production until the Chinese (Norinco) and later Russian (Wolf and Barnaul) ammo entered the market in the late 80's and early 90's, therefore it is obvious the AR family was designed with brass cases in mind. I don't know what more proof you need than the obvious historical facts.
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