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Posted: 12/13/2005 6:49:34 PM EDT
I need to acquire 500 rounds of .223 for a rifle class before February, the catch being that it
can't be steel core ammo, so SS109/M855 variations are out. I'm wondering what other folks
have used in that situation and found reliable. I've found these two options:

Cabelas, US made 55 grain (I'd still have to ask them whether it's steel cored)
http://tinyurl.com/92s24

AmmoMan has listed a frangible 50 grain load:
http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

If there's another choice that's worked for you, I'd sure like to hear about it!

Thanks in advance,

DonB

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:13:48 PM EDT
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:19:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VAPORTRAIL:
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?



+1 awsome stuff
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:20:54 PM EDT
I really like the georgia arms stuff. It always go bang. I used some on some steel tanks this afternoon and it ripped right through. Pretty cool huh?

Originally Posted By VAPORTRAIL:
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:42:30 PM EDT
Is there a budget limit? Why not use regular, common ammo like Federal American Eagle 55gr.?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:44:41 PM EDT
What ranges are going to be shot at this course? At most Carbine <100yrd distances a 55 grn mil load will penetrate more on steel than a true M855 load due to velocity. I would question any "Class" that believes that M855 or even SS109 loads are AP or anything close. What class is this?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:56:19 PM EDT
I bought 250 rounds of Lancer Custom Remanufactured Ammo at a gunstore back in the summer, it ran through my bushy as good as the Winchester whitebox 55 FMJ stuff from wally-mart does.

After that I got 1,000 rounds delivered to my front door for $165.


.223/5.56 55 FMJ
(500 Rounds)
Price: $80.00

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:11:04 PM EDT
or you could go to the Ammo forum .........
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:58:26 PM EDT

What ranges are going to be shot at this course? At most Carbine <100yrd distances a 55 grn mil load will penetrate more on steel than a true M855 load due to velocity. I would question any "Class" that believes that M855 or even SS109 loads are AP or anything close. What class is this?


General Defensive Rifle with Insights Training:
http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=9&categoryID=4

Held indoors at a police range, somewhere between 20 and 50 yards distance. Non steel targets, I think they're mainly worried about a round from someone on the far left/right hitting the wall and generating undue wear and tear.

Their pistol class was AWESOME and I've been dying to take the rifle version ever since.

And I guess I should've really posted this in the ammo section.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:09:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mugenmanxr:

Originally Posted By VAPORTRAIL:
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?



+1 awsome stuff



I second that.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:16:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
I bought 250 rounds of Lancer Custom Remanufactured Ammo at a gunstore back in the summer, it ran through my bushy as good as the Winchester whitebox 55 FMJ stuff from wally-mart does.

After that I got 1,000 rounds delivered to my front door for $165.


.223/5.56 55 FMJ
(500 Rounds)
Price: $80.00




Someone in the ammo forum is looking for info/feedback on the Lancer stuff, I am curious to know as well... www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=260840

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:29:20 PM EDT
Federal American Eagle 55 grain.

Winchester White Box USA223R1.

You should be able to find either in bulk. You can find the Winchester at your local wal-mart, but I doubt they'd have 500 rounds of it. Check your local gun stores or sportsman shops. If you have a bass-pro, check there, they might have Winchester Q3131 there you could use.

Just buy some .223 55 grain FMJ with a brass case, from any name brand. You could either buy all of it in the same brand and lot number [hence giving you more consistent ammo... In theory], or you could mix and match [thus if one load doesn't work well, you'll have another that will]. Don't worry about buying great ammo from classes... In fact if you want, find some cheapo reloaded stuff like Unltramax or that no-name brand reloaded stuff from Cabelas... Yeah, it won't be great ammo, and may jam some... Well, what better place to learn to deal with a jam than at a class? Seems like something you'd almost want to happen in training, so that if it happens in the real world, you'll know what to do.


YMMV
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:21:39 AM EDT
Go to a local gun show.

I just bought 1000 rounds of Winchester Q3131 for $179 (cash). No tax, no shipping.

Look around, you'll find a deal by February.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:42:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
Yeah, it won't be great ammo, and may jam some... Well, what better place to learn to deal with a jam than at a class? Seems like something you'd almost want to happen in training, so that if it happens in the real world, you'll know what to do.

Great advise. I think I might just put together a dummy round or two and have my buddy slip it into a mag sometime.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:40:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 9:43:15 AM EDT by kels]
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=4092

WWB
Remington
PMC
Black Hill blue box
PMP

Were all used at my last carbine class.
They all worked fine
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:14:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 10:22:39 AM EDT by 444]
This weekend I am taking my fifth formal carbine class. In the first two classes I took (Gunsite 223,556) I bought PMC ammo. I bought it for the first class because that is what my local dealer happened to have and I just bought the ammo package with the class the second time and that was what they gave me. I experienced several malfunctions with that PMC ammo. In one case I had a failure to fire, I attempted to clear the malfunction and had the bullet come out of the case and fill my action with unburnt powder. After that, my rifle was a PITA until I cleaned it at lunch time break. PMC was no where near the cheapest ammo out there.
When it came time to take my next class I decided to make a bold decision. It was a decision based on what I consider to be extensive personal experience. It was a decision that would not be popular with the instructors or with the on-line armchair commandos. The decision was to use Wolf ammo in these classes from now on. Why ? First of all, unlike that PMC, I had never had a single malfunction with Wolf ammo in what is now 15,000 rounds of .223. Yes, dispite all the BS posted on the internet, I decided to base my decision on real world, personal experience. Second, it was almost half the cost of any other ammo I could get. Third, I am a handloader, but at these classes I don't pick up my brass: since I don't want Wolf cases anyway, it is no loss. Fourth, Wolf provided all the performance I needed for a carbine class: total reliability and more than enough accuracy for combat type drills (these classes are not benchrest matches).
I showed up at that first class and immediately got a lecture from the instructors. I chose to ignore their advice. At the end of four days I had experienced zero malfunctions, shot the highest score in the class by a wide margin on the final skills test, and won the man on man shoot off. I was able to hit a pepper popper six out of 10 times at 400 yards from prone using an Aimpoint during the class.
The last class I took didn't go as good as that one did. I had allowed my skills to deteriorate drastically though lack of practice and training. My score was middle of the road at best and at 200 yards I don't think I put a round in the "A" zone throughout the whole class. But, I again, had zero malfunctions and this time I didn't clean the rifle for the duration of the class.
Tomorrow, I will be on the line using Wolf and KNOW that I will get a good quality training experience.
I am not good with money. I spend it as fast as I get it. I have no problem buying guns, ammo, NFA stuff, tax stamps, training or whatever: cost is almost always not an issue. But, that being said, I see no reason to spend twice as much for ammo when the cheaper ammo does everything I need to perform at my best for the task at hand.
That being said, I wouldn't take any class with any ammo that I hadn't personally tested through my gun as extensively as possible. You definitely don't want to get to any formal class with equipment that doesn't work. You will have wasted your time and money as well as the time of the instuctors and the rest of the class. You owe it to yourself and the class to make sure your gear will run. Now, shit happens, people experience problems in classes: that is one of the cool things about clases, they wring out your gear. But, you shouldn't have problems as basic as ammo not working in your gun: that should be sorted out long before the class. And, you can't do that by just buying something based on internet advice: you need to buy and test to make sure you are good to go.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:58:36 AM EDT
444,
Did you use the FMJ or JHP? 55 or 62 grain? I have a handfull of mags with 55 Wolf ready to go but haven't gotten to the range yet. Brief disc. of rifle? How much adjustment for zero did you have to do?
Thanks,
Brent
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:29:00 PM EDT
I used 55 grain FMJ. All of it was the "old" Wolf with the laquered cases. Never tried the "new" Wolf.
I zeroed the rifle with this ammo, since that is what I shoot most of the time. Out of all the Ars that I have owned over the years, Wolf has been the primary ammo I have used. I don't even waste the time to handload ammo in this caliber when I can buy a case for just under $100 at the gun shows. I certainly have used others, but never felt it did anything Wolf didn't that justified paying twice as much. I handload my ammo for serious longish range accuracy shooting, defensive ammo, and hunting ammo.
In those classes I used a Bushmaster 16" post ban rifle and an Aimpoint ML2. Heavyish 1:9 barrel. In one class I used a Bushmaster M4 profile barrel: 14.5" barrel with KKF muzzle brake and a TA31F ACOG. And right now I am using a LMT 16" M4 profiled barrel and iron sights. I have owned at least 15 different AR15s and have shot mostly Wolf in all of them. All ran fine. No problems at all. Never replaced a part. Never took any special pains in cleaning them. Never had any significant number of malfunctions: none that I could honestly blame on the ammo.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:31:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By mugenmanxr:

Originally Posted By VAPORTRAIL:
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?



+1 awsome stuff



I second that.


And a Third Yea for Canned Heat.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:55:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By donbcivil:
I need to acquire 500 rounds of .223 for a rifle class before February, the catch being that it
can't be steel core ammo, so SS109/M855 variations are out. I'm wondering what other folks
have used in that situation and found reliable. I've found these two options:

Cabelas, US made 55 grain (I'd still have to ask them whether it's steel cored)
http://tinyurl.com/92s24

AmmoMan has listed a frangible 50 grain load:
http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

If there's another choice that's worked for you, I'd sure like to hear about it!

Thanks in advance,

DonB




Wolf
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:40:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By mugenmanxr:

Originally Posted By VAPORTRAIL:
How about some Georgia Arms Canned heat?



+1 awsome stuff



I second that.


And a Third Yea for Canned Heat.


Make that a fourth. Good stuff.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:27:00 PM EDT
I have shot about 2500 rounds of the GA Canned Heat in different classes, and give it a big fat thumbs up for the performance to cost ratio... I will be buying another 1K as soon as I can get some other shooters together for a group buy and free shipping.

Dave
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