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Posted: 12/12/2005 1:22:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 1:23:26 PM EDT by SIMPLYDYNAMIC]
quote from a article about barrel lengths and ammo verses velocity...


11.5 inch barrel at 5 yards can end up with no more terminal effectiveness than a 20in barrel would have at 150 yards.


1: So im curious now to what the velocity of a 55grain FMJ bullet would be at 300yards out of a 10.5 in barrrel...anyone heard or tested?

2: So if this is true, would a 14.5 in barrel be a more all around effective barrel length even in a CQC enviornment?

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:29:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:37:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 1:37:33 PM EDT by 223-4me]
A 10.5" Barrel with 55 grain ammo should have around 35-45 yards of fragmentation, a 11.5 inch should have a little more, around 45-60 yards( both from memory). That is more than enough for close combat, its when you shoot over this that terminal ballistics become a problem. I would prefer a 14.5" barrel(and 75 or 77 grain ammo) but it is not as compact as the 10 or 11" barrels, but it does have a significant edge in fragmentation range. IIRC the fragmentation floor 55 grain ammo is between 2700 FPS and 2500fps, so just check the velocity of the shorter barrels against that and it should give you a good Idea as I don't have the velocity chart close at hand. The 10.5 or 11.5 Barrels is not a good choice for over CQC range, and the 14.5 is much better, especially with 75/77 grain OTMs(around 2200 FPS frag range) at all ranges, but size is a factor. Both lengths have their place, as 14.5 is a good compromise between a 10.5"(short) and a 20(long range)
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:33:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.



sounds like your a man of experience, why dont you tell us about your real world testing!
and what would you use since your not fancy on the "poodle shooter"
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:34:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-4me:
A 10.5" Barrel with 55 grain ammo should have around 35-45 yards of fragmentation, a 11.5 inch should have a little more, around 45-60 yards( both from memory). That is more than enough for close combat, its when you shoot over this that terminal ballistics become a problem. I would prefer a 14.5" barrel(and 75 or 77 grain ammo) but it is not as compact as the 10 or 11" barrels, but it does have a significant edge in fragmentation range. IIRC the fragmentation floor 55 grain ammo is between 2700 FPS and 2500fps, so just check the velocity of the shorter barrels against that and it should give you a good Idea as I don't have the velocity chart close at hand. The 10.5 or 11.5 Barrels is not a good choice for over CQC range, and the 14.5 is much better, especially with 75/77 grain OTMs(around 2200 FPS frag range) at all ranges, but size is a factor. Both lengths have their place, as 14.5 is a good compromise between a 10.5"(short) and a 20(long range)



Thanks 223, definitly the 77gr for me!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:37:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.

i suspect you have not seen "the video".
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:39:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dsking85:
i suspect you have not seen "the video".


Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:49:42 PM EDT
I am wondering about this too.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:51:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 9:51:56 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]

Originally Posted By Dsking85:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.

i suspect you have not seen "the video".



Apparently not.

BTW, SD, if you have the velocity and ballistic co-efficient of the round you want to know about (M193 has a BC of .243, IIRC) you can go HERE and "Define Your Own Bullet" and set the velocity and zeroing distance, etc.

Very interesting tool to play with.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:11:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.



uh oh
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:23:33 PM EDT
GO DYNAMIC!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:06:16 AM EDT
WAIT A MINUTE!!! THERE'S A POODLE SHOOTING VIDEO?????????????????


This I have to see!!!! ( loves dogs, hates poodles )
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:17:38 AM EDT
oh boy...
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:17:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:19:29 AM EDT by DevL]
The velocity/fragmentation threshold fo MK262 or 5.56 pressure TAP from an 11.5" barrel exceeds 100 yards. It is less than 100 yards for a 10.25" barrel I beleieve in the 70-75 yard range. Cant remember exactly off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:36:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:17:17 AM EDT
BTW, does anyone remember the minimum velocity required for MK262 Mod1 to fragment?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:03:11 AM EDT
.223/5.56mm Fragmentation Chart

Right here on arfcom, in the ammo forum. Imagine that.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:11:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.



sounds like your a man of experience, why dont you tell us about your real world testing!
and what would you use since your not fancy on the "poodle shooter"


Oh damn, this could be fun to watch.
BTW, SD- did you get the MER for point targets on your "poodle shooter" from Crane?
I'll do some scratching around, but I seem to remember that with the really short bbls firing M193 or M855 that the round does not reach the frag threshold at any point. Of course, the Mk262 changes that.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:39:57 AM EDT

BTW, SD, if you have the velocity and ballistic co-efficient of the round you want to know about (M193 has a BC of .243, IIRC) you can go HERE and "Define Your Own Bullet" and set the velocity and zeroing distance, etc.

Very interesting tool to play with.

WIZZO



thanks Bro awsome help
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:41:34 AM EDT

BTW, SD- did you get the MER for point targets on your "poodle shooter" from Crane?


Havent heard back yet, I have the Navy guys here looking into it, Ill let you know when I here something

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:59:55 AM EDT
The guys I was checking with had to go someplace, so I'm not going to be getting any real world answers for awhile. Sorry, I'll dig a little more out of curiosity.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:08:56 AM EDT
For Mr Hineline's viewing pleasure...

Click here.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:23:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:35:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Dsking85:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.

i suspect you have not seen "the video".



Or he has and is just showing everyone what we already know about him.



C4



That wasn't very nice, Grant.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:36:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:43:04 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:38:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:38:37 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.



So THAT is what it feels like to step on your dick with golf shoes.....

I almost feel bad for you Dave.

Good job though!

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:39:42 AM EDT
Watching someone try to insult Travis or call him out on his shooting ability is pretty funny...

I would expect anyone that tries and is proven wrong by the link to the video to go "Oh F*ck!! That was YOU!?!?!? " and then apologize profusely!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:41:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:42:11 AM EDT by Dace]
;
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:48:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter.



So THAT is what it feels like to step on your dick with golf shoes.....

I almost feel bad for you Dave.

Good job though!



funniest shit I've read all day. Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:59:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:

BTW, SD- did you get the MER for point targets on your "poodle shooter" from Crane?


Havent heard back yet, I have the Navy guys here looking into it, Ill let you know when I here something

Thanks


No prob.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
That wasn't very nice, Grant.




What I can I say. I call it like I see it. SD has served his country and made the world a safer place for all of us. He doesn't deserve a snide comment from ANYONE.


C4



No, Grant is right. Some people like to pretend they are the almighty firearms god, when they aren't.


Plus, Hineline is a dildo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:53:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
That wasn't very nice, Grant.




What I can I say. I call it like I see it. SD has served his country and made the world a safer place for all of us. He doesn't deserve a snide comment from ANYONE.


C4



No, Grant is right. Some people like to pretend they are the almighty firearms god, when they aren't.


Plus, Hineline is a dildo.


Thanks Steve. Now I have to explain to purchasing why I need a new keyboard because mine is covered in coffee and snot.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:19:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
That wasn't very nice, Grant.




What I can I say. I call it like I see it. SD has served his country and made the world a safer place for all of us. He doesn't deserve a snide comment from ANYONE.


C4



No, Grant is right. Some people like to pretend they are the almighty firearms god, when they aren't.


Plus, Hineline is a dildo.



I know. I was being sarcastic.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:23:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
That wasn't very nice, Grant.




What I can I say. I call it like I see it. SD has served his country and made the world a safer place for all of us. He doesn't deserve a snide comment from ANYONE.


C4



No, Grant is right. Some people like to pretend they are the almighty firearms god, when they aren't.


Plus, Hineline is a dildo.



I havn't been here that long.. but reading the posts of his I have run acrossed, I concur.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:37:28 PM EDT
Sorry, I missed the scoop here, is SD the guy in the vid?
I'm assuming so-

Oh man that shits funny. Mr "if you don't have a full auto you're a homo" himself just got bitch slapped!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:42:38 PM EDT
The list of people here with actual video of them in combat is fairly short to say the least, and this guy questions the credibility of one of them...too funny.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:47:57 PM EDT
tagged because I want to see the video when I get home.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:50:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Sorry, I missed the scoop here, is SD the guy in the vid?
I'm assuming so-

Oh man that shits funny. Mr "if you don't have a full auto you're a homo" himself just got bitch slapped!


That's our very own Travis.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:05:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:11:03 PM EDT
outstanding....


wait wait wait, didn't Hineline used to be a mod? Well, SD must be full of it then...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:17:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 2:18:01 PM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:21:05 PM EDT
ah, well that makes it even worse then...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:23:33 PM EDT
Damn, I need to pick up some 75 or 77gr. ammo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:31:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:49:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:51:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:19:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I have no idea what any of you are talking about. My response to the original poster is if you are putting thought into whether or not the gun you have looses effectiveness because the barrel might be 3-4 inches different in length one way or another then the easy fix is to buy a bigger gun.

.223 is barely adequat for any sized animal hunting. It's for killing poodles and other small vermin.



Would you classify Terrorist as small vermin? Cause I hear it works effectively on them.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:34:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:50:18 PM EDT
hahah this just keeps getting better and better.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:59:17 PM EDT
Does that video have audio? I couldn't hear nuthin...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:09:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 6:49:46 PM EDT by Gunzilla]
Pulling this from memory, but we are working on short barreled stuff now...

Your 55gr out of a 10.5 would be around 1600fps at 300yds (this is a swag) and far below what is considered a leathal round.

The statement you quoted about the short barrel being no more effective at distances of normal social intercourse, than at a football field is based mostly on ME figures I would bet, I know that the ME of the 10.5 is about what the rifle is just past a hundred yards (or ballpark numbers anyway, we used to say that to make the XM177 they took an M16 and cut off a hundred yards.

As you know, the real drag of these guns is using them in a confined space -- some recent lessons learned are saying that even the M4 is not suitable for shootouts in steel boxes! But we are talking CQB, not MOUT... really CQ battle.

There is a lot of discussion going on about the short barrels, I am all about 16" as the minimum carbine length -- IM me when you get a chance....
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