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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:25:44 AM EDT
[#1]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:27:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Which is why I placed this qualifier.. 
 Lonny |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:55:07 AM EDT
[#3]
It is weapon specific.
For a AR platform Lumpy hit it bang on. Additionally we are talking about combat a fluid and dynamic environment not KD shooting... |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 11:21:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Where does intermediate range end and long range begin for you Lumpy? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 12:33:12 PM EDT
[#5]
For me (not Lumpy)
Intermiate ends where I cannot make a hit or tgt recognition/descrimination without a very steady position. I would peg it between 200-300m depending upon platform and optic. Close, I should be able to hit COM on the move (albiet slowly at the ending ranges) and upper COM or head static standing. For me that is the Lumpy stated 100m'ish. so YMMV |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 1:22:13 PM EDT
[#6]
True only if you narrow your definition of accuracy to any hit on a full silhouette. I always had BZO at 200M and went up one or two clicks for 300M shots. Not adjusting for windage at 300M will neither assure you of a possible in a match nor confidently make a kill. Forget about hitting even a sillhouette at 500M without having a handle on windage. I am not addressing battlefield engagement distances. I am addressing those distances where most people visiting the board would have a reasonable chance at making an accurate shot. If you don't have a high probability of putting your rounds into the 8 ring or tighter, you are not making a reasonably accurate shot. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 2:27:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Well the narrow definition of accuracy is what we Marines strive for, I as a leader I am not so much concerned with how someone does on the KD, other than their cutting score. I am more concerned with that narrow definition of accuracy of being able to hit another human. The 200 8/3-2 BZO is pretty much standard on phase 1 of the range, but the +2 for 300 brings you right up to the 8/3 setting of the rifle. A reasonably accurate shot is hitting your enemy. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 5:11:35 PM EDT
[#8]
I should have said wide definition of accuracy. You don't have to be very accurate to hit a sillhouette. If your mission doesn't involve killing your targets, then I guess that you don't need accuracy as an atribute in your Marines. I suppose you are merely pushing the minimum training for the war at hand. Still, I have a hard time accepting that you would not encourage your Marines to be better marksmen. When I was active...... We Marines had a focus on and a pride in scoring well at the range. We cared about putting in the time and shooting well. The whole training hard in time of peace to assure better success in time of war think was hammered into us. How are you going to kill another man if you can't beat a piece of paper? Myself and other NCO's tried to encourage everyone to strive for a set of crossed rifles. A pizza box didn't get much praise. A couple of points either way on the range will give little impact on a cutting score, but better marksmanship may save your life or the life of another in the field. A wounded enemy may still be able to kill. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 5:20:49 PM EDT
[#9]
The problem is that rifle range performance doesn't translate to gun fighting performance, especially when the first thing you teach Marines on the close shooting course is "The Marine Corps taught you to shoot, we are teaching you to fight. The first thing you have to remember about fighting is most of what was taught on the KD course will not apply." Simple fact of life is that the KD/SLR course is based on a game , a game in which the doctrine that supported it became obsolete in 1914. However we being almost as steeped in tradition and mythology as a religion were never willing to look at what happens on a battlefield but defaulted to what we thought happened. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:41:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Personally, I define it by the weapon used to destroy the target. From a 16" barrel, 55gr FMJ fragments out to ~150yards, so my AR-15 is for 0-150yards (short range).
Next is 150yards to ~600yards (intermediate range)...for that, I want my AR-10 in .308. Anything beyond 600yards I leave to the 50BMG (long range). |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:59:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Close range is in the mean point blank range of the particular weapon to me.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:34:08 PM EDT
[#12]
I just reread the first post and it doesn't specify combat or KD. To me, it's one in the same! |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:47:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Thank you, STLRN. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 9:16:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Its something he pulled out of his ass! |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 9:55:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Which is characteristic of markm...
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:30:05 AM EDT
[#16]
We've now drifted beyond the initial subject of the post. We have left the discussion of what is medium to long range and have entered the discussion of training for modern combat. You obviously share the opinion with others that the KD course is outdated and that a close combat course is more relevant. I agree that success at a 500M KD course has little to do with clearing a building. Staying on this line of thinking would you agree that those who focus on a course which trains the majority of its focus under 200M may have a difficult time scoring a 10 at a target which is 300 or more Meters away therefore making more than 300M a long distance for such a shooter? |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:42:44 AM EDT
[#17]
I think it should be defined by your own local environment....
In Maine it's: <50 yards = Short Range 50-200 = Intermediate >200 yards = Long Range Up here in God's Cold Thick Green Rocky Countryside Hokie doesn't have the opportunity shoot past 300 yards. If he's occasionally called to do so, he moves closer to the target. 
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:45:14 AM EDT
[#18]
Here's my take on it.
"ranges" for rifle use, pistol has it's own set Short range is under 200 yards ( because further than that, I can't readily identify the target) Int. range is 200 to 500 ( I can see target, but can't ID) Long is over 500 ( I can't see the target) |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:54:15 AM EDT
[#19]
within rifle range context, I would agree when you move out to 500 than reading the wind and NPA becomes much more important and someone trained out to 300 would have problems making the leap to 500. However, at 300, I would say most people could readily transition from 200m shooting to 300 meter shooting without much of a problem, that is why they only allow a loop sling at 500, because shooting at 200 isnt' much differant than 300.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:21:03 AM EDT
[#20]
DevL -- Hey you want to chime in and clarify if you wanted combat data or KD info?
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:57:02 AM EDT
[#21]
I was concerned with combat data. I was specifically looking at the use of carbines with magnified optcs used to fill the short range and intermediate role and why it is that everyone considers a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel a CQB only rifle yet a 14.5" or 16" rifle with a low powered optic is often considered intermediate range weapon. I thought perhaps I was mistaken and the role of the carbine with magnification was simply to better cover the "short" range out to 100-200 yards or where ever short range ends.
Kevin, You have a match grade barrel and Short Dot on your carbine. Do you consider that to be both a short and intermediate range rifle or is it just a short range rifle to you? It seems most everyone disagrees with ranges where short range combat turns into intermediate and noone thinks it has to do with the terminal ballistics of the weapon. Other than that I was just trying to stir up ideas and opinions so I could have a better idea of the realities and thoughts behind current gear selection by law enforcement and the military. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:19:12 AM EDT
[#22]
DevL
Thanks for setting us straight. In my opinion the S&B on anything is a Close and Intermediate setup - be it a 10.3"-16". A lot of people on both side of the border are running the Short Dots on 10" and 10.3" Shorties. In a pinch it can do some long as well. As far as ammo goes with issue C77/M855 - you shoot till the threat is gone so it may require more rounds but is still better than a miss... |
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