Everytime I read one of these "piston" threads the first thing that comes to mind is how the heck so much misinformation, distortions and downright lies can fit into one thread.  Boggles the mind, and this one is just getting started, I'm sure the real gems are yet to come.

Bottom line here, if you want a piston upper by all means get one, that's what's great about America, you earn your money and you spend it the way you like.  I'm sure the piston uppers are worthy products.  But if your AR won't go through a dozen mags without failing in some way, it's not the lack of a gas piston that's the problem.  The problem is either YOU or YOUR rifle.  Something is wrong with one or both, so why not FIX the problem before you spend lots of money putting a band-aid on it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it! I'm having trouble seeing if there is any sarcasm in this statement or not.  If not, it worries me that the creator of this system would say that.  Wolf is the baseline for alot of things I do.  It's nasty, underpowered ammo is perfect for stressing an iffy system.  If it can pass the Wolf test, it's good to go.  If it can't pass Wolf, it still needs work.  But that's just my builds. I take the opposite position, if a build runs 100 percent with Wolf then there is something wrong.  Exception would be early rifles intended to run on lower port pressure (ie edgewater spring guide). I guess I need to finish my statement, then.  Wolf testing is a minimum basline testing for gas function and a maximum for dirt and filth.  If it runs on Wolf, it will run on cleaner, stronger ammo. I don't see how you think if a rifle will run 100% on Wolf, that it won't run 100% on higher quality ammo.

Well, I ain't going to spend a whole lot of time on the subject of Wolf ammo, in a piston thread no less.  But, near as I can tell Wolf ammo generates port pressure that is below spec.  My experience is that it will not reliably feed in a USGI surplus upper with a standard buffer.  If a set up does run reliably with lower then spec gas pressure then first thing that comes to mind is your rifle is over gassed or the mass of the moving parts is too light, or combo of both.  The lower pressures generated by IMR powder, in conjunction with the now standard buffer lead to the US Army disapproving IMR powder for M193.

For example, once I get a chance to test my Model 01 clone I fully expect it to run at it's best with IMR powder, or something like Wolf with lower port pressures.  Also expect that with recent vintage ball powder loaded M193 the cyclic rate will climb to 900 rpm or higher, and reliability to suffer.

My uppers are USGI surplus (save one, but it is equivalent), and functioned tested with full auto mags dumps, so I may have a different standard, and like they say YMMV.

Quoted: Did somebody say..."PISTON"? This is me on my '03 Suzuki Hayabusa.... fz1gear.com/Busburn2.jpg it requires more care and maint. than my wifes oddysey mini-van...as it's valves need to be inspected and adjusted every 15K miles...fortunantly for me I know when that care and maint. needs to be addressed....and I keep a few valve shims and oil filters on hand for just such occassions...why do I put up with such frequent required maint. you ask?...because...my wifes minivan just dosen't have the same "Performance Potential"....like speed...my Hayabusa will do close to 200mph...my wifes minivan?...might break 100 with a good tailwind...or handling...my Busa will take a curve with confidence at 2-3X's the posted...my wifes minivan?...feels like it might roll if your 10mph over....and that's just a few reasons why I put up with the high maint. of my busa...oh...I forgot....we're talking AK's VS AR's here....aren't we?hr

Off topic but I just sold off an R1 that ate quite a few Hayabusas for lunch on track days. My new to me 2001 Ducati 748 is sure to devour a few displacement junkies once it arrives.

On topic has an independent body ever subjected any piston AR15 to real torture testing. Sand, mud, auto dumps, thrown down concrete steps etc etc...

I know direct AR's can be picky, but they for sure can take a beating. Pistons add parts which raises murphy's law under harsh use

It seems like the overall issue relates to the most predominant short-comings of the AR gas impingement systems.  It's not that gas AR fail ALL THE TIME.  The real interest should be:  Can a system improve upon a weakness/lesser strength (for the sensitive one's out there) of the current AR rifle.   The key here is will the "improvement" be a net gain, or a washout due to as yet unseen piston related problems.   CAN/DOES/WILL the innovations being offered via the LW system make a great gun even better.  This sure doesn't seem like a real controversial offering, as some seem to be trying to make it.  

Shit, people, many on this site, are paying $50-60 to help with the other common AR problem, mags by buying the HK HR models.  Or they're paying $2.50 for the magpul follower, and $8 for the improved power Wolff spings.  They/We are putting $10.50, or an addition $35 if you buy the HK mags, into ONE $12-15 mag to improve upon it's function and reliability.  That represents a much bigger percentage investment than is required to make your great gun even greater.

That said, people BITCH, BITCH BITCH AND NAYSAY like women in a sewing club.   Who cares about Post count?  It DEFINITELY isn't a reflection on knowlege.  I found it to be quite the opposite, generally.  "Listen" and learn something, gather up your information, wait and see if you want, and appreciate that some manufactures are trying to make tools/toys/guns even better.  

Some good points, and a few very closed minds.  Thats OK.  Remember where I said my impingement rifles have never failed?  Its true.  I clean them and feed them marginally good stuff.  In other words, I do my part.  60,000 rounds on an 10.5 K-P without maintenence on one upper mostly in full auto over the course of the last year.  I believe that was the clincher for me.  This is the weapon they take to their demos.  Not a new tight one.  It was the first one I shot, and I had a visit with her again about a month ago.

I told Paul about something we did with his upper in leiu of a demo/training session we have planned.  Don't worry, we wont be doing the training...  Pauls response was silence.  I don't think he could stomach the thought of it.

With the top off the rail we dumped a shovel full of sandy soil on the piston and shot it.  Worked fine.  While Jesse shooting the rifle dumped a pile of sand on the gas piston.  No problems.  I know it is not scientific, but it demonstrates how the system is closed.  The only time the innards of the piston cup are exposed is when the piston is in full vent.  The gas blowing out seems to take care of it.

If people are open to seeing this unscientific experiment, we will video it and post it as an MPEG.

I am willing to bet the POF would do the same thing.  Not sure about the HK as it has a tapered nose on the piston, but HK does all kinds of nasty stuff to their upper in their demos.

Paul has offered anyone in the DC area to see and shoot for themselves.  The same holds true for us.  My LW's are personal guns, but anyone in the San Antonio, Austin, Hondo area are welcome to make up their own minds and shoot them.  BYOA.  Semi or full auto.

Gimmick....hardly.  You don't have to take my word for it.  Something tells me you wont.

BTW HFG,  I wont throw my gun down stairs or onto concrete.  We will leave that stuff for guys like those who torture at Picatinny Arsenal.

I think 48thHighlander did an EXCELLENT job of writing down his opinions without deliberately knocking anything.  

I would like to think that he can tell us exactly what he saw at his little get together without being flamed for saying the four letter C-word or others.  

I'd like to read more threads like this.

48thHighlander did such a good job at writing this article (I didn't perceive ANY BIAS) that I think it will make a good troll trap.  

thanks!

A. In the last 5 years I can count on one hand the number of failures I have seen at a match with an AR (attributable to the gun and not mags).

B. In the last 5 years I have seen at least 50 failures by local LE during quals - I am of the opinion that some people could fuck up a steel ball.

C. Wolf ammo - this year alone I have run 6k rounds through the following - 20" RRA, 16" LMT, 16" CMMG - hmmmm seems to work just fine - BTW 48th - you must have some old Wolf - it is no longer laquer coated and does not stick in a chamber.

D. I am VERY interested in the whole piston driven upper concept. I am in favor of anything that increases the reliability of a system. Thus I have been watching and waiting to see where this concept will go as I might well be interested in purchase.

I will try them when the price gets better. As of now the no piston works better than my outher guns.

Quoted: A. In the last 5 years I can count on one hand the number of failures I have seen at a match with an AR (attributable to the gun and not mags). B. In the last 5 years I have seen at least 50 failures by local LE during quals - I am of the opinion that some people could fuck up a steel ball. C. Wolf ammo - this year alone I have run 6k rounds through the following - 20" RRA, 16" LMT, 16" CMMG - hmmmm seems to work just fine - BTW 48th - you must have some old Wolf - it is no longer laquer coated and does not stick in a chamber. D. I am VERY interested in the whole piston driven upper concept. I am in favor of anything that increases the reliability of a system. Thus I have been watching and waiting to see where this concept will go as I might well be interested in purchase.

+1 on everything you written, EXCEPT C.  Never in my ARs and always in my AKs.

I'm a true, unbiased participant in the LW gas piston, GP ARMS-R...let me call it.....SAGA.  I'm just a simple, very near term customer.  In two days I will be receiving my first LW/GP accessorized product, a 14.5 inch rifle.  My goal is to shoot the shit out of the thing for some, what to me is an ungodly number of rounds over the next few months with no cleaning or lubing (am I missing anything) I will NOT DUMP DIRT AND SAND IN IT on purpose.  No nurturing, as I do with my current weapons.  I promise to provide routine"civilian" updates.  Yes, I will even put a sizable number of Wolff through it (may not be a big deal to others, but it's something I've never done in the AR).  This claimed robustness, given limited attention to the nurturing I noted above, is the reason I've bought into this concept.  

Treating a gun, including my POS Romanian WASR, like this is against my Gun Religion.  I'm doing it for my own selfish curiosity and I'll post updates if you all are interested.  Shit, I'm going to do it even if your not interested.  If it's a lemon, you'll know.  If it's the tank I'm hoping it to be, you'll know that too.

Quoted: C. Wolf ammo - this year alone I have run 6k rounds through the following - 20" RRA, 16" LMT, 16" CMMG - hmmmm seems to work just fine - BTW 48th - you must have some old Wolf - it is no longer laquer coated and does not stick in a chamber.

Actually Darren is mistaken, I had the mags loaded with the following Russian ammo: Wolf, Barnaul  (Sold locally at Academy Sports under the Monarch label) and Silver Bear.

The ratio breaks out to roughly these numbers:
15% Wolf
80% Barnaul
5% Silver Bear

Why do I shoot this ammo....because I'm a cheap bastage? No matter how you look at it, it's just plinking. I have better thing to do with my money than blow it on better ammo. I have one mag with Horndy TAP ammo for home defense and two cases of Black Hills ammo just incase of a SHTF scenario. At these Texas Tactical Carbine matches held in Hays County we are limited to maybe 40 yrd (max) engagements, we are not shooting MOA. So shooting crappy ammo in these matches don't bother me. To me trigger time is bliss!

My views on weapon reliability is, it must go bang every time? A semi auto weapon must be able to cycle whatever ammo I feed it. Ammo sensitive guns suck and can get you killed, plain and simple. It is no secret, the AR family of rifles can be problematic especially when changes to the original gas system design have been made (i.e. shorties). Thus the reason for large diameter gas tubes and pig-tails. I'm a shooter and my guns reflect it, I do not remember the last time I cleaned any of them. I'm not here to say that the AK, HK, FAL, etc are better platforms than the AR. The AR rules supreme because of adaptability, ergonomics and accuracy, but the truth of the matter remains, AR's do suffers more from reliability issues than the others.  

When Darren first showed me the Leitner-Wise system back in Oct. 04, (before we had any connections with L.W.), my response to him was, "That's nice!". I did not see any real benefits from a piston system, as my AR ran fine (albeit I enlarged the gas port to over gas the system). I simply could not justify the $600.00 cost of a conversion (remember I'm the cheap bastage). A couple of months later L.W. sent us a preproduction unit to use while we designed & developed the ARM-R rail. I was very impressed by the fit & finish of all the components, reduces muzzle rise & recoil, reduced maintance, the engineering involved and with Paul L.W. himself. After shooting the system I was converted. I normally do not post on threads to express my personal opinion regarding any of the piston systems, especially the ones involving L.W.'s system because of the pissing match that tend to develop (mainly by certain trolls) anytime a positive review of the L.W. system is made. I do chime in to share in the technical aspects of the L.W. system or the ARM-R rail because of my first hand knowledge.

Do Darren and I (Grenadier Precision) have something to sell.....Yes and no!!! We are the makers of the ARM-R rail system and we assist L.W. with some of there custom work. We made a production run of ARM-R/C (carbine) rails and L.W. purchased around 90% of the run. The balance we are keeping for our custom rifle projects. The current run of ARM-R/M (mid-length) rails we are currently machining have also been purchase by L.W. We (Darren & I) do not surf this site or others pushing our rails. Although we could due to the fact that it will work on standard gas impingement AR's that is not our goal. We will be L.W. dealers at some point, but current production demands on L.W.'s end, has prevented this happening. Once they are caught up, which will happen in the very near future, we will be a stocking dealer. So at this point it is kind of hard to sell something when we don't have nothing to physically sell.

Take Darren's (48th's) original post as you may. This was a simple observation made not only by Darren but also by me and others. Call us bias, but the facts are as they happened. More than half of the AR's in our squad had some sort of malfunction, all the piston guns ran flawlessly (L.W. quipped 10.5" upper, M1, and the AK). I did have one FTF but that was user error as I got the ejection port way too close to barricade. The match was part of the monthly Texas Tactical match held this past weekend in Hays county. We were in Allen's squad, Darren was the big mo'fo with the tiny gun and I was the one with the desert tan F/A AK hybrid.

Quoted: You won't break it.

An I don't intend to.  Here's my planned agenda:

1.  Drive to range
2.  Mount my Trijicon or Aimpoint or Eotech
3.  Shoot it a lot
4.  Remove site
5. Drive home and put the gun away
6.  Two Guiness Stouts or 1 tall bourbon on the rocks (OK, maybe two of the latter)


Repeat above numerous times.

Excellent Idea...I have a gas upper that will go through the paces with the LW.  Done deal!!!  This makes it a lot more interesting for my overally analytical self.