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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - POF ?? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/10/2005 2:50:17 PM EDT
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I have been looking at the POF (Patriot Ordinance Factory) P415 rifle. There was a good write up about them in this years Guns and Ammo book of the ar15. I have 2 questions about this gun . #1 Has any one had any experance with it. If so I would like your imput good or bad. #2 What are the advantages of a piston system (similar to a FAL ) over the current AR system? This looks like a nice gun and the price isn't too bad concidering what your getting but it's new and new things often have bugs. ANY imput would be appreciated. Jim |
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I'm just speculating here, but didn't they change their name from Pakistani Ordinance to Patriot Ordinance? I threw away all my old shotgun news issues, but thats what they used to call themselves, selling Paki knock offs of HK gear. I'd find out who is making the gear (instead of marketing it) and research it from there. Sounds intruiging, but I've never had an AR foul up on me. Two of them are going on 1,000 rounds without cleaning... |
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Can't help you with personal experience. I'm teh guy that want's someone else to buy it and try it first. Although, I do think I'll pick up one of their uppers when they do the M4 style handguards ( I don't want to pay an extra $300 for rails I'll never use). As to the gas system, I'm a big fan of pistons. I can put thousands of rounds through my M1A, and it looks liie I've only fired a couple mags through a direct gas sytem. I haven't had any issues with 4K rounds of WOlf through my AR without cleaning, but like I said before, I'm a piston guy. |
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DS Arms has adopted their gas system for one of their high-end carbines. DSA is a very reputable company that tests all their products thoroughly. Here is the POF gas system on the DSA GTC. |
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Thanks, Patriot ordance and pakistani ordance are not the same, Pakistani ord make the HK knock offs for patriot ord. The P415 is not made in Pakistain if it was I wouldn't even concider it. the P415 is the same rifle that is sold thru DSA for $1675.00. You can buy the exact same upper thru POF (minus the Dura coat) for $975. I was thinking about buying the upper and puting it with and Rock River lower. I am just a little hesitant about buying something this "new". Keep the input comming. Thanks |
Damm! Thats good to hear! Zero failures! I have 2 other ar type rifles and between the fat boy gas tubes, oring in the extractors, heavy buffers etc. they both run flawlessly. I rarely have any problems with them. That being said I really believe that a good gas piston sytem will complete the ar series weapons. A weapon with the ergonomics, accuracy, and modularity complemented with reliability on par with the ak family, will be like having your cake and eating it too! |
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JimBow, Hope you enjoy the pictures of our O.C.C. (Offensive Compact Carbine). Gas piston 9.25" barreled upper in 5.56mm. This is a sweet compact weapon system. Hope you enjoy the pictures.  Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com   |
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On an expanded note: I gotta say all this talk about POF being reputable is driving me crazy, when less than two years ago they were spamming the hell out of this place, making insane claims one their website (that the predator was undergoing "military trials"), and flooding ARF with dudes that had two posts but just decided to drop in and relay how incredible this rail system was from this guy Frank they just "ran into at the range today." All of this has just been neatly forgotten? No mods remember any of this? I'm not one to doubt a respected contributor like Denny, but POF will NEVER see a dime of mine. Cheers |
I think you are out of line on your criticism. POF makes good products, I can attest to that first hand having used their HK parts. Have you ever even used any of their products? The Predator is not my cup of tea, but it is a good, solid product. I have no problems with POF, none. |
I think Moe makes a great point. *I* have a BIG problem with a company changing it's name to avoid it's own reputation. To the folks who say it isn't the same company I ask this one question. Why do they call themselves POF-USA? Wake up. Also note that POF just avoids this subject altogether. Now in the interest of disclosure, I have not personally shot any of their products However I know their reputation and reputation is 90% in this industry. (Ask Geoff at Shrike...well ASK him but don't expect a reply) Where this all comes together is the fact that this company wants me to buy its product which uses a proprietary gas system that forces the consumer to purchase THEIR rail system (Captive consumer) on THEIR upper. Which when something breaks (And it WILL) will Pakistan Ord. still be around? Could you revert back to gas system if you needed to if Pakistan Ord. goes tits-up? Nope. So as I illustrated, there are too many red flags going up here. Pakistan Ordinance won't see a dime of mine either. |
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Air force SP, Do you kjnow for a fact POF is Pakistani Ordnance Factory?? This is a quote from this years Book of thr AR 15, " Dabbling with HK21parts eventually led him(Frank DeSomma) into the firearms industry, where he established Patriot Ordnance Factory inc. His company is know for the new G3and MP5 parts he "imports" from HK-licensed and ISO -certified Pakistani Ordnance Factory." The other question I have is if they have a bad rep why would DSA intrust them with the new Z-GTC. DSA ,as far as I know, is well known for turning out top of the line guns. I would be surprised if they were to market a poorly desinged gun under the DSA name. If you do have more info than what I could find about POF please share it. I just ordered one of there guns and want something that's quality. Hopefully this will be . |
As stated by Jimbow, POF-USA carries H&K parts made in the H&K factory in Pakistan under license from H&K Germany. This means that the Pakistani factories have to adhere to the same proofing standards that H&K Germany stipulates or they get their license yanked. The Pakistani Military still uses H&K G-3 and MG3 machineguns, this is why the factory. These parts have been evaluated by discerning smiths such as ARS(arizona response systems) and been determined to be as good as H&K factory parts. Regardless of what you think of Pakistan, the Pakistan Ordnance Factory parts sold by POF-USA are good quality, I have used them, I have friends who own MP5s who use them also. They also have significant LE offerings, and they fill the gap H&K USA does not fill. I would not hesitate to do business with POF-USA. In my opinion those who rag on them for selling the Pakistan produced H&K parts are talking out their ass with no actual experience with them. The gas piston uppers and AR15 parts are all produced in the USA, by US manufacturers. |
You can buy the POF gas piston upper from Troy Ind complete with Troy MRF (Modular Rail Forend). No need to fret over the friggin' rail. |
Email quote from Frank DeSomma at POF-USA: "Our lowers are made in house, but we do buy parts from Stag/CMT - our standard trigger groups, ambi-selector, and 6 postion retractable buttstocks. Our lowers come with Tango Down battle grips. The fit and finish is top quaility. Anodize is done at tier one vendor for Honeywell and Boeing. We try our very best to offer the best quality and value." |
STAG/CMT parts are top notch - they make RRA receivers and parts. |
This is just TOO DAMN STUPID.  POF seems to make great products. I have read several reviews from guys I trust that were very favorable.
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_DR, JimBow, Thank you. Our corp. is: Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc., DBA (Doing Business As) POF-USA. We haven't changed our name. We are the exclusive importer and distributor of HK licensed parts from POF (Pakistan Ordnace Factory) We offer factory NEW parts for your HK weapons at a reduce cost to the consumer, and we stand behind all the products we sell.
Our gas piston system currently is offered with our Predator Tactical rail system, and very soon with plastic M4™ hand guards (M4 is a colt trade mark). Troy Industry is offering our gas piston system with their MRF system. We currently have several choices for hand guards/rail systems and hope to have more in the future. The goal is to provide the customer with the system they want. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com Predator rail systems %20P-416%20rifles.JPG) plastic M4™ hand guards (M4 is a colt trade mark).  |
This is an integrity issue. The fact that POF (or any company for that matter) was claiming flat-out LIES to be truths on their website, then running a shell game here with employees posing as end users, and anyone remember the tirade where Frank claimed ARMS was having him followed?? Come on Dinger, are you saying a company like this is worth your money? Cheers |
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Moe-Ron, this thread started with technical questions about POF systems and should stay that way. If you actually have proof of your allegations and want to make an issue of it, please start your own thread titled something like "POF Is Friggin' Liars" or something, OK? I don't want to infringe on your free speech, and you can say whatever you want within the terms of this Website, but I think you owe us the responsibility of backing up your charges. But do it in a different thread. I admit that I jumped into a LW thread and said, "Wait a minute, what about the claims by Kurts Kustom that he hired them to test his design and then next thing you know they're producing their own knock-off?" And speaking of LW, there's much more "history" there whereby a person could jump into one of their threads and bring up integrity issues, but it would be out of place, and one wants to give them the benefit of the doubt that they've changed their ways and are only as good as their current products and customer service. Would you go to a wedding or family reunion and start making a scene and re-hashing issues with your ex-wife? Have some sense of propriety. Take your personal issues with POF out of this technical thread and start your own if that's what you feel you need to do. John |
What lies are you talking about? I have seen no lies. How about supporting your allegations with specific evidence. |
Well let’s put it this way. I have read tests and reviews of POF products by the likes of Denny Hansen and Pat Rogers. Both speak very highly of POF. I have learned to respect both of their opinions. On the other hand, I can listen to guys like you who have never even seen a POF product in person. Who would you listen too? Personally, I think POF got a raw deal when they first posted on ARFCOM. The old ARMS crew took offense and went on the attack. In typical ARFCOM fashion many others just jumped on the bandwagon. Most of them had zero experience with POF, but damn if it wasn’t fun to bad mouth the new guy on the block. They won and the rest of us lost out on getting some good info on a new product. As for the rest of your allegations, I can look at the LW fan club and see the exact same behavior. |
| Thank "you" Frank for personally responding to this tread. Also thanks to the others who provided 1st hand experance with POF. I am looking foward to reciving my new POF upper. I ordered it with the works. I'll make sure and post a review after I test it. Thanks again. Jim S |
Be sure and give us a range report when you get it. |
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Well, I'll add my 2 cents worth. I think that the POF-USA Gas Piston System for the AR Series Firearms is a great step. From what I've been reading and viewing in all of the photo's published, I had to give Frank a call. He was very easy to talk to and I'm going to get an upper from him with the P9 Predator Rail that covers the Gas Block, and have a folding Front Sight on the rail. I've looked very seriously at the L-W and POF-USA System's, and believe that the POF-USA Gas System looks Much More Robust than the L-W system. I have not handled either of these uppers, but, I have studied (ALOT) the photos. POF-USA get's my vote and money, too. Even thou, I was told it could take up to 8 weeks. I can wait, But I don't want to. Frank, it was good talking to you. 1NavyChief-Ret Support our Troops, wherever they may be. |
Hi Frank, Is that the standard size carbine Preditor rail on the shorty? Thanks! Paul B Co. |
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I believew that Chrs tried calling me today to give me a little insight on my upper. We never ended up talking so he sent me an email. I appreciate that the guys at POF were going out of their way to keep me up to date. That says alot about them in my book. Im also going with the midlength predator rail with the lower profile gas block. All of this will be on a fluted m4 barrel with the Troy flip up sights. I cant wait!!!!!! |
BravoCompanyUSA (Paul), Yes. The P-4X (Carbine) Predator Tactical rail is used on our 5.56mm, O.C.C. (Offensive Compact Carbine) 9.25" gas piston uppers/weapons. I like the look and the way this system works with the Krink flash hider. Hope you enjoy the pic's. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com
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We don't own one but our system does work with suppressors. Our good friend Mike Brown of Jet Suppressors ( www.jetsuppressors.com ) has been using our system on a custom 10" for about 1 1/2 yrs now. We just built him our new O.C.C. 9.25" gas piston upper. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com 16.5" gas piston upper with suppressor 
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When POF first came here they were talking up the Predator rail, and at the time, on their website, they calimed the rail was being tested in military trails. The implication was that the Predator was in the RIS competition, which was a lie, and shown to be so. If Frank denies this then that will speak volumes about his honesty. Where their gear is made is not an issue, as long as you know full well when you pay your money, and the fact that their system is propriatory should go without saying as any new system would be. I find it very hard to doubt what people like Pat Rodgers have to say about the piston system, but the fact remains POF's integrity is in question in my book for the reasons previously mentioned. Take it for what you paid. Cheers |
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Va_Dinger, Here's how we tested our Predator tactical free floating rail system. To date we have never seen a plastic hand guard hold this type of weight, nor have we seen any data from the military or manufactures testing rail systems like we have. Our test showed us how strong how strong and rigid our rail system is. Maybe a real world condition test would be to use the weapon/rail system as a step stool to get your partner full of gear, over a wall or the weapon was drop and stepped on. How would plastic hand guards hold up to this test? Just a thought. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com  our extreme test: over 600lbs for over 1.5 hrs  |
I think I am lookin' at my next SBR
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While I am for calling bullshit on any douchebag vender that I intgeract with (RE: Bill Caplan's outfit) I have personally bought two predator rails and I am probably going to buy the 9,25" upper. That's not small change for me. I don't spend that kind of money with underserviing people. I remember the ARMS Wars of the distant past. Glad they are over. I have talked to Chris numerous times and I think I have talked to Frank once or twice. Frank builds a great product and Chris, as hi sfront man, does a great job with customer service. |
I cannot believe you are stupid enough to dig up this BS again. You have a serious problem - seek professional help before you get banned again. 
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SC-Texas, Your full-auto therapy sounds like alot of fun to me. We would be glad to help with your full-auto therapy needs. Until you get one hope this picture can hold you over. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) Here's a picture of our P-415 rifles with Platic carbine hand guards, Troy front and rear flip up site, with vortec. Uppers/Rifles Available soon with plastic hand guards.  |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - POF ?? (Page 1 of 2)
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