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Posted: 12/7/2004 10:03:38 AM EDT
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Hey all. My little story started some time about a month-and-a-half ago and came to fruition this morning. I'm not sure where to start, so read this email that I sent to DPMS last week and we'll go from there: "I recently purchased what I was told was a DPMS M4 carbine from a seller on Gunbroker.com. This seller identified themselves as ***** ******* and claimed that they were a DPMS authorized dealer. The rifle I received had a DPMS lower with DPMS markings on the magazine well and above the trigger guard. The upper, however, lined up poorly with the mated lower, and housed a stiff, non-chromed bolt carrier. To boot, the 6-position stock affixed to this carbine was manufactured by TAPCO. I immediately suspected that this was not a genuine DPMS AP4 carbine, and that the seller had knowingly misrepresented themselves by assembling carbines from DPMS lowers mated to uppers and stocks of unknown or shoddy origin. Not long after I purchased this rifle, I found that several more had been re-listed by the seller using the same pictures and description as from the auction I had won. The only such listing on Gunbroker.com right now is auction # **********. I don't know that DPMS has a policy dictating penalty to those who falsely claim to be an authorized dealer, but if ***** ******* is not authorized as such, I would appreciate your telling me. I have since returned the rifle, absorbing an inordinately high restocking fee in so doing. In its place, I will be receiving a DPMS AP4 Carbine from ImpactGuns.com. This experience has not tainted my faith in DPMS to produce quality products, as I am sure I will be satisfied wholly by a true AP4. Thank you for taking the time to read this message and follow up on ***** *******'s false claim." Fast-forward to today when I called the seller to query the status of my refund; he left me by saying "Oh, by the way... I appreciate the letter you sent to Randy at DPMS. He sent me a copy of it." I sort of chuckled, and then he told me to kiss his ass. I laughed a little more and hung up. Now, granted I shouldn't have said in my email that the seller's dealer status was false (as I only did so in my conclusion). But man, I'd have expected a little more professionallism from everyone involved. As a business owner, I'd have taken such a message in stride and addressed the concerns stated. On the same note, the recipient at DPMS might have had the courtesy to inform me that he had forwarded the message (I received no response as it was). I didn't even mention the fact that the handguard was turned about a half-inch to the left, the gas tube bent with it. hinking.gif Oh well... lesson learned. http://www.sw-schutz.com/abbildung/m4/m4-2.gif sWs Homepage |
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Freedom Enterprises, Spruce Pine, NC GunBroker.com Seller ID VLAD2000 sWs Homepage |
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Not entirely sure on either. He's probably an authorized dealer, as he's on a first name basis with their customer service reps. As far as the rifle goes, I can't imagine it to be so that it was truly DPMS. The upper should have had a chromed bolt carrier and Glacier handguards. It had neither. ETA: I know it sounds picky and incompetent, but I've handled DPMS rifles in the past, and this one just wasn't up to snuff. I know my DPMS well, and this just wasn't it. sWs Homepage |
| Could you call DPMS and ask them if the receiver with that serial number left the factory as a rifle or as a stripped receiver? That would definately clear things up. If it left DPMS like that, then that says something about their quality. If it didn't, then you can contact Gunbroker and inform them about this guy. |
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I know, I know, lesson learned. I got a NIB on it's way from Impact though, so I'm not worried. As for serial number inquiries, it wasn't in my post, but my email's PS read as follows: P.S. Attached is a picture of the receiver of the carbine I purchased. Its serial # is F015292K, 'K' emphasized by a lightly embossed stamp. Any information regarding parts manufactured with this serial number range would be greatly appreciated. I'm not expecting a response. I don't particularly care anymore now that my refund is out on the wire. I appreciate the idea though. I might look into it. sWs Homepage |
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Yep. Just called DPMS' 1-800 #; K = kit gun. Thanks 89K and BB. sWs Homepage |
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Just so you know, unless the dealer has a MANUFACTURING FLL (which allows/requires him to pay the Federal Excise Tax on each complete gun he builds), then building whole guns on AR lowers is illegal for him to do. You can legally do so as an end-user, but you can't legally do so as a dealer. -Troy |
Oops! I guess he will be "kissing your ass". sWs1 |
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I purchased a complete DPMS lower from Freedom Ent. at one of the NC gun shows, it also has a lightly stamped "K" suffix serial #. After seeing them at a couple of gun shows and purchasing stuff from them, I'd only do it again if I got to personally inspect the merchandise. If I hadn't been referred to them by another reputable dealer who didn't have any lowers at the show, I would not have stopped at their table. |
I picked up a new unfired AK preban underfolder few years ago off of GB for I think around $550 Seller had no idea it's value - was a fantastic deal for me :) You just gotta be lucky or check things out well |
I bought a DPMS multi-tool from them at a show once and asked about that, as they were selling assorted lowers/uppers parts kits. They said they had the right title of FFL (7 IIRC?). I was going to get a pistol lower and they actually knew the deal on those, which is unusual for gunshow vendors. That said, misrepresenting a parts gun for factory is a no-no. 
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Thanks all for your replies. I was able to find their most recent auction on Gunbroker.com. The auction number is 25925033 or you can go here. The auction I won, the one linked above, and the others no longer listed all read as follows: "THIS IS A NEW DPMS PRE-BAN TYPE M4 CARBINE WITH A4 FLATTOP RECEIVER, 16" PRE-BAN TYPE M4 THREADED BARREL, A2 FLASH HIDER, M4 HANDGUARDS, 20 ROUND MAGAZINE AND M4 6 POSITION STOCK. THIS IS THE ONE EVERYONE WANTS, TO DON'T LET THIS ONE GET AWAY. **ALL BATF RULES APPLY**" The description definitely seems misrepresented, though some argument can be made for the quote "PRE-BAN TYPE M4". After I won the auction, I found that three others with no difference other than auction end had been listed. At that point, I knew I had probably been ripped off. Whether they are a manufacturing FFL, I can't say, and I wouldn't know where to find that out without having to speak to them again (or the ATF). As for the Vaseline, no. I actually had to go to a drug store and buy the generic stuff. sWs Homepage |
I have bought and sold guns through both, and I have never had a problem. Then again, all my transactions have been between private individuals, and only after reviewing their feedback. The most I've paid (through Gunbroker) was just under $1600 for this:  I've had zero problem both buying and selling. Caveat Emptor. |
+1 And although I was flamed for stating this in another thread. I don't think the alphabet gang is going to differentiate wether you are actually a dealer or are building them 'as a hobby' and selling them for profit. |
And you can count yourself as the lucky few. But I am being silly. Good for you! Rock On! |
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I have nothing but EXCELLENT EXPERIENCES with VLAD2000 over past 2 years I have dealt with them. They do have manufacturing licence of firearms. I have bought several AR-15 rifles, lowers, uppers etc. from them and none of them has been poor quality. Excellent job and excellent service. Original writer just had bad luck. I always ask some questions from seller before I buy anything. -Guy from Finland- |
After reading this post, I was going to reply with . . .  Then after seeing this:
all I can say is I.T.A.R. . . . .anyone . . . anyone . . . Freedom Enterprises, Spruce Pine, NC GunBroker.com Seller ID VLAD2000 Tapco stocks, DPMS-K lowers being sold as an implied factory rifle, Randy handing out copies of emails, FET issues, ITAR - I don't even know where to begin  Freekin nightmare all the way around  |
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They (VLAD2000) do know this stuff: International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) I know for sure they do have export licence of firearms I know for sure they do have manufacturing licence of firearms I know for sure they do have at least class 2 and 3 licence I know for sure they are going to have import licence of firearms, full autos, silencers etc. but not destructive devices in 2 months. -Guy from Finland- |
Wow! You know alot about this guy in N.C. for living in Finland. Weird huh?  |
This is why I quit going to local FFL dealers who rip me off. I've always had good experiences with gunbroker.com and the other online gun auction/advertising sites. Maybe that's because I take the time an effort to garauntee what it is I want and what I am looking at. Checking a seller's feedback also helps. When a local FFL refused to do a transfer on a stripped lower because I was going to build a AR15 carbine (said CAR15s were illegal and he wouldn't do a transfer) I walked away. When I went to another dealer I found out he was only open the fifth Sunday of every other month. Its hard to start a relationship with a local FFL when they don't want your business. I had one FFL tell me that he wouldn't transfer a stripped lower reciever because he didn't want me calling him back when I couldn't get the damn thing to run. I just never called him back period. I found someone now who will do transfers for a great price and I almost never buy local because of that. |
| "M4 type". Well, Colt owns this as a trademark. They have pretty much lost control of "AR-15", but can legally kick some @$$ for using the term M4. They have sued others. Note that many sellers are using EM4, R4, and other similar designations to refer to M4 type parts and configurations. |
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