AR Sponsor
Posted: 11/30/2004 9:30:06 PM EDT
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not sure about all the SBR laws and whatnot...... an upper receiver with a bbl legnth of less than 16in. is legal as long as its not attached to a lower receiver? or is any upper receiver with a short barrel illegal to posses even if its not attached to a lower? |
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What if you didn't have an extra lower to mount it to at the given time? I was wondering...say you want a m16 full auto lower. Do you fill out the paper work or buy it first? Because don't you have to register a specific receiver? If so I don't think a seller would be thrilled about waiting the 80+ days it takes to get approved. I thought about getting an 11.5'' barrel with my xmas money and registering it when I turn 21 in june. But I definetly wouldn't want a fellony lieing around my room. |
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I wouldn't have a short AR15 upper and an AR15 rifle lower at the same location without the tax stamp (you risk a "constructive posession" charge, like with machinegun parts). If you have a legal M16, legal AR15 SBR or legal AR15 pistol, then you have a reasonable excuse for having the short upper on the premises. In the complete absence of any AR15 rifle or lower capable of accepting said upper, you would be OK (depending on local laws). This is just my opinion, and I'm sure others would choose differently. |
People can and have been successfully prosecuted for an illegal SBR without the upper and lower being attacheded. Here is my "paranoid conspiracy" as documented in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals: www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/19978425.MAN.pdf
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The implications of the above case are very bad. It means they can basically say, if you have all the components necessary for breaking the law, then you broke the law without actually committing the act. This is a deplorable revocation of the rights of the citizens and is one more step towards a police state where citizen's right are forfeit. The courts have gone too far. |
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i wouldnt bother in NY, i think they are banned anyway, along with selectable fire weapons. i was just curious as for other states, im trying to plan my escape lol my guess is maybe they can bust balls if they want for intent, but i dont think certain states will... (CA/NY/ect = yes, TX/AZ/ect = no) |
The key word is "intent". Read the case closely. Even though the defendant had claimed that the short barreled upper "was for spare parts", he never made any attempt to break it down, and in fact kept it fully accessorized with a scope and sling. Under the circumstances, the court was forced to conclude an intent to assemble the two parts. There is a very simple rule of thumb here: If you have no legitimate reason to have a short barrel in your possession, don't have one! Either sell the SBR spare upper, put it on a pistol lower or pay for the tax stamp.
Since you have a legitimate SBR, I would think you are generally OK. But I'm not a lawyer. |
So along this line of legal reasoning, if you have no legitimate reason to own a semi-auto AR15, then this should be illegal also? I don't buy that. If he had the Shorty upper, and had not broken it down for parts yet, he has not broken the law until he puts it together with the lower. It does not matter what he "could have done". If he did not do it, he did not break the law. You have an AR15 and "Could" go knock off a bank with it. Should you be endicted for "intent" to comment armed robbery? These types of rulings can only serve to further cloud the water on what is legal to own and what is not. The problem is the vague laws and fickle BATF interpretations are so ambiguous as to completely infringe our second ammendment rights. What's next, a department of "Pre-Crime"? Where citizens are convicted for a crime before they even think about it? Seems that's where we are headed. |
YES> You cannot own more SBR uppers than you have SBR registered lowers/full-auto lowers to mount them on. The following is from an ATF advisory: "4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's? The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA." You can read the whole letter at www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/atf_letter90.txt |
Sounds like a movie that was out not too long ago.........  I own gun powder and stell piping both kept in my garage. Can I get convicted for intent to make pipe bombs? This is ridiculous. I`m planning on making a 7.5" pistol soon. So I can`t buy the upper until I buy the pistol lower? [edit] just read Rabbit9's post.......I guess not |
Probably not, to be safe. This in contrast to Switzerland, where every non-criminal adult male of military age is issued an assault rifle for homeland defense. Switzerland, BTW has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Perhaps in the "Land of the Free" we are not really free. |
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Not into the argument but..... So a local newbie game officer is on patrol. He sees a lady at anchor sunning herself and motors up to check her fishing license. Seeing three poles in the boat, he says " may I see your license. She says, "Oh no I am not fishing I am just sunning myself". "My husband is the fisherman, and he is on shore". Being a newbie and maybe a bit overly enthusiastic he decides to stroke her a note. She sees he's going to write her a ticket and says, "Why are you writing me a ticket". "Mam you have all the equipment in the boat you are anchored in a popular fishing hole and you could start at any time". "Ok, she says, I am calling the sheriff and charging you with rape". "What the heck are you talking about Lady". "Well you have all the equipment and I am right here barely clothed and you could start at anytime". Newbie put his ticket away and left immediately with his hat in his hand!!!!!!!!1 -The facts of this case are true only the telling has been exagerated.....by me- |
KEY MG - machine gun SI - sound suppressor (silencer) SR - short barreled rifle SG - short shotgun AOW - any other weapon LBDD - large bore destructive device EXPDD - explosive, incendiary or poison gas destructive device STATEMG SI SR SG AOWLBDD EXPDD Comments AK Y Y Y Y Y Y Y AL Y Y N N Y Y ? AR Y Y Y Y Y Y ? (state registration of pistol cal. MG's over .30) AZ Y Y Y Y Y Y Y CA Y N Y Y Y Y Y (requires discretionary and rarely issued permit for mg, lbdd or expdd from state Dept. of Justice; no AOW pen guns; C&R sg, sr only) CO Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (requires state explosives permit for expdd) CT Y Y Y Y Y Y ? (no select fire mg's-full auto's only, after 1993 assault weapon ban, state registration of mg's) DE N N Y N Y Y N (no smooth bore pistol AOW's) FL Y Y Y Y Y Y Y GA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (no incendiary expdd's) HI N N N N N N N IA N Y Y Y Y Y Y (only si, sr, sg, lbdd and expdd designated as collector's items by the Comm'r of Public Safety - they use the ATF C&R list) ID Y Y Y Y Y Y Y IL N N N N Y ? N IN Y Y Y N Y Y N KS N N Y N Y Y N DEWAT machine guns are OK. KY Y Y Y Y Y Y ? LA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (mg's require a permit to purchase - war relics only; mg's, sr, si, sg and some expdd's require a permit to purchase) MA Y N Y N N Y N (license for mg's required; 1998 law bans covert firearms (AOW's), short shotguns) MD Y Y Y Y Y Y N (mg's must be registered) ME Y Y Y Y Y Y Y MI Y N Y Y Y Y Y (FFL needed to own machine guns; no incendiary expdd; C&R sr, sg only) MN Y N Y Y Y Y ? (C&R mg, sg only, registration required) MO Y N Y Y Y N N (C&R mg, sr, sg only to non-FFL holders; FFL holders (including C&R) any mg, sr, sg) MS Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (as of 7/1/00, silencers are legal, but must be registered with the state) MT Y Y Y Y Y N N (state law banning silencers and requiring pistol cal. mg's over .30 be registered with state repealed 4/23/99) NE Y Y Y Y Y Y N NC Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (sheriff's permit required for mg's; must be FFL holder (including C&R) for mg, si, sr, sg lbdd and expdd, or fall into another exception, see comments below) ND Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (fed. "licensees" required to register all NFA weapons with state when possessed for "protection or sale") NH Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NJ Y N N N Y N N (mg requires discretionary and rarely issued permit from state court) NM Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NV Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NY N N N N Y Y N (AOW smooth bore handguns are allowed, on a state pistol license) OH Y Y Y Y Y Y Y OK Y Y Y Y Y Y Y OR Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (no incendiary expdd's) PA Y Y Y Y Y Y N RI N N N N Y Y ? SC Y Y Y Y Y Y ? In 2001, S.C. law was changed to permit all Federally registered items SD Y Y Y Y Y Y Y TN Y Y Y Y Y Y ? TX Y Y Y Y Y Y Y UT Y Y Y Y Y Y Y VA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (state registration of all mg's) VT Y N Y Y Y Y Y WA N Y N N Y Y N (silencer may not be used on a gun) WI Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (permit required for expdd, no incendiary expdd's; no pistol caliber mg's w/o permit) WV Y Y Y Y Y Y ? WY Y Y Y Y Y Y ? |
also you have to wonder...the guy who was on trial, why where they in his home to begin with?? He was probably a criminal, had broken the law, and now they are trying to slap every lil bit they can to him to make sure he stays in jail for longer then a few months...unfortunantly with how lax our courts have become criminals are barely staying in prison for very long anymore...now the cops have to charge these guys with every thing under the sun just to get a descent sentence on their jail time!! Now any Joe that doesnt break the law....im sure could have an SBR upper in their home and have no problems from it....but im not advising anyone to break the law or at least show "intent to break the law"
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First off, I'm not here to defend the government's course of action. However, I can easily understand how this case transpired in the manner that it did. Jumping up and down screaming "2nd Amendment!" isn't going to do anyone any favors, particularly those who might have the same parts in their possession. You are really reading FAR, FAR, FAR too much into this. As I stated, it all comes down to perceived intent, as articulated by the prosecutor and understood by the jury. More correctly, the legal term is "mens rea", or guilty mind. My point was simply, if you don't want to be busted for an illegal SBR, either don't have the short barrel, put it on a pistol or pay the tax. I posted the link simply as a service to ARFCOM members because some amateur lawyer stated that it was "paranoid conspiracy" that one could be prosecuted for having unassembled SBR parts.
Not to be confrontational, but did you read the document? It is an appelate court decision affirming the results of a jury trial in a lower court. It is now case law and actually clears the water on what is legal to own and what is not. If you live in the 11th circuit, it should be absolutely crystal clear that having a SBR upper and an AR15 rifle will be construed as an NFA violation. Other jurisdictions probably have similar case law, or will look to this case as a guide.
I also have a penis and am therefore equipped to be a rapist.  Please don't engage in these silly comparisons, it doesn't do much to enhance your perceived debating skills. Do you really think mere ownership of a gun and proximity to a bank would be swallowed by any jury as an intent to comment a crime? The case in question was not really about intent to commit a crime, but using the perceived intent to judge if a crime had taken place. i.e. were the parts really spares, or just a partially disassembled unregistered SBR?The real issue here is what the laws say and how they are interpreted through previous cases and the judicial process. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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