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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Perfect SHTF AR-15? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/9/2004 5:25:35 PM EDT
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Hey, I was just wondering what you guys thought would make a perfect AR-15? I'm not talking about rails and A3, and A4 type rifles, just the barrels. I have a 16" barrel, but have been wanting to get a 20". But then I got to thinking that the 16" would be sufficient enough. My thinking is that the 16" would be more manuverable in a hallway, and would be better than a 14", but wouldn't be as good as a 20". What do you guys think? Is a 16" good enough? Thanks, kc |
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I like the 16...but I live in a crowded area. If I lived out in more open country I would use the 20. Cause you have a lot of time when a slow zombie is walking its way across a corn field to try and eat your moist brains. Take nice careful 20" aim. But in the city, you never know when one of those leaper faced nasties is going to come through a doorway and be only 10 feet away. I like tacos. |
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I tend to think a 14.5" barrel is the better way to go but I guess it really depends on lot of factors and specifically what scenario you have in mind. I say 14.5" because most of the scenarios that I see as plausible in my case would mostly involve a lot of close in action and getting in and out of vehicles\buildings etc. The slightly shorter barrel and lighter weight would be more advantages then the slightly higher velocity and range of a 16" carbine. That said, if you live in a location that is practical to believe you may be heading for the hills and hiding out where there and you would be more likely to use the gun as a survival rifle the a defensive weapon than really a 20" rifle would be your better choice. 16" guns are meant to be a compromise. That's good in the sense that they will usually be decent at a lot of things but compromises generally don't do anything well. That's my $.02 anyway |
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16" M4 profile with a 1 in 7" twist. 14.5" is just 1 and 1/2 measly inchs shorter, yet to have it means you would have to forever permanently attatch the muzzle device/flash hider you choose to grow old and die with. (OK maybe its not quite that bad, but where you gonna find a smith that can cut and rethread your barrel if the SHTF?) 16" also gives you the best compromise between terminal ballistics/range(velocity) and close up handling. 1 in 7" is an on-going argument, due to the price of barrels with it, and its ability to destroy superlight ammo. But think about this: If/when SHTF, where you gonna find a large amount of 45gr ammo? In all likelyhood, it would be only surplus types like 55grn (M193), and 62grn SS109 types (M855), both of which work just fine with a 1in 7" twist. |
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like you said sgt. urrutia.... a 16" is better than a 20" in close areas... but a 16" is better than a 14.5" balisitically... i choose 16" so i can screw on differnet attachments... etc... can't go wrong with a 16" barrel... and if your one of those people who think 16" are ugly... get a midlength system... |
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I'm settled on a 14.5" 1:7 for my next build because I may need to use any ammo I can find, so why not have a barrel that can cover the full range of .233 ammo? SHTF for me means urban fighting -- clearing rooms, getting in and out of cars, etc. I need to be able to maneuver. According to the ammo forum sticky, I'll have effective frag range with most ammo @ 150yds and under which I personally think is sufficient for my environment. I'm still trying to decide on an Aimpoint or TA31 from the group buy. Unfortunately I've never been able to test out an ACOG to see if the eye relief would be permissive enough to shoot from awkward positions. But most of the pics of private contractors in Iraq and other close-protection forces I've seen are using Aimpoints and Eotechs. So I'm leaning towards Aimpoint. |
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16 or 14.5 are the best for SHTF carbines. If you want to go 20" go with something in .308, like a FAL, G3/91 or M1A. For me SHTF means CARBINE. Something light and handy, easy to carry around and fast into action. The AR-15 is just about perfect for this job. I like light weight barrels in 16 and 14.5 inches. No need for a HBAR when all I care about is hitting zombie out to 150 yards center mass. If I need more than that then I will move up to a .308 so that my rounds are more effective at the 400 to 600 yard lines. 16 inch barrels are just fine, 14.5 is just better.  Either way go light.
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Like others have posted above, I too view the 16" barrel as a jack of all trades but master of none. But to me, it is this versatility that is actually adventageous; because in a SHTF scenario you can't count on a specifc environment or situation, therefore it is best to have a weapon that possesses the highest degree of flexibility. But unlike others, I feel the 1/9 is the best twist for SHTF. Simply because the ammo most probably available would be garden variety Wal Mart special .223, which would inevitably include light weight varmint rounds. I understand the lack of terminal performance with these rounds against humans, but I would rather have 45 grainers than nothing. Not to mention using the rounds for small game hunting, which I also view as the most probable source of food. |
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Well, I would say that a 16" barrel is the jack of all trades for short to medium range work. I think it would be best in a SHTF scenario to take off all of those gay rails, lasers, and all of the other crap that wanna-be-commandos have on their AR's today, exept maybe an ACOG and a good flashlight. If you have a flat-top, make SURE you have back-up iron sights, because when the S really HTF, chances are its gonna hit your fancy scopes too. I have seen enough to know that the only optical sight that should be atop an M4/M16 is an ACOG. Have plenty of ammo, water, MREs, gun-cleaning supplies, and gas masks ect ect pre packed in heavy-duty bags, should you have to leave your house. Also, depending on the scenario, a good AK-47 is a must; someting may happen to your AR, you might run out of cleaning supplies. But, as we all know, the AK-47 just won't stop. Choosing a good side arm is also a wise decision; I prefer the SIG 226. |
Thanks guys for your replies. I think you guys just made me want to stick with my 16" and not even bother with the 20". This fall I want to buy a WASR-10, that I've been looking at, from my dealer. He also has a nice Sprinfield Armory 1911A1 GI, that I'm going to get first. Again, thanks for the replies, and if anyone else wants to chime in, please do so! Thanks, kc |
I agree also but I just have to ask this question. I don't want to piss anyone off but how many people out there think the apocolypse is coming and you're going to be roaming the countryside trying to survive? I try to prepare for natural disaster such as a hurricane or possibly a riot. However, in what scenario do you see yourself getting in and out of your vehicle in a hurry and running in to perform room clearing tactics? I can understand if you belong to a LE ageny or military unit (in which your weapons would be issued or specified) but for the life of me I can't come up with a "realistic" possibility that would demand forming the Red Dawn Reactionary Strike Force. If I'm missing something, please advise. |
A terrorist attack that wipes out electrical power grids. With no electricity there is nothing: no Safeways, no Wal Marts, no communications, no gas stations, the world as we know it shuts down . The result would be social chaos. When people are panicking after mass riots and looting take place, I will be sitting in my house very well defended from anybody who thinks they can come take my food or water. |
+1 And that's just one scenario. Alot of us refuse to put their undying faith behind FEMA's ability to protect our families in times of social crisis. Personally, I believe that NOT preparing for such an eventuality would be a dereliction of my responsibility to my family. If that makes me a "Red Dawn Reactionary" then all I have to say is: WOLVERINES!!!!!hug.gif |
Ditto |
We had a taste of that last summer in the north east. Remember the black out? I do as I was in the effected area. Anarchy didn't happen. Know what I saw? I saw people helping out other people. Everyone was out talking walks and talking to their neighbors. Ice cream stores were giving away free ice cream. Everyone was in it together so they helped each other through. When 9/11 happened, you didn't get mass upheavel either. What you got was the nation uniting as one. They were turning people away because so many were trying to get to Ground Zero to help out. Billions of dollars were raise in private donations to help out with 9/11. That is what this country is all about. In times of need, we pull together. It is in our national character. It is in our history. It is who we are. |
That's because everyone knew that the power would be back on soon, and knew why it went down. If, say, several power plants had been blown up, and people knew that the power would be off for several months at least, then I think you might have seen a different reaction.
The events of 9/11 really only affected small areas. They were important ones, sure, but most folks could go home and be okay. When people get scared is when their HOME is affected.
That's generally true. We live in a great country. -Troy |
Just wait until they blow up our power sources (remember my point on zero communications, that applies to police and emergency personnel as well) then strike with a WMD of any kind. Mass hysteria. The only thing we can do is be prepared to protect our family and our resources. |
This discussion brought to mind something I've been curious about. In the info library there is an article titled "The Ideal Rifle". It doesn't say who wrote it or when but does it apply today?
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I'd stick with a VEPR. Seriously, it shouldn't matter much, but I just can't stand all the frag range you lose with M855 from going from 16" to 14.5". You lose almost the same from going 20" to 16" as you do going 16" to 14.5"... It just doesn't make any sense to me, but I don't own an AR so I can't say for sure. Either way, it'd be a lightweight barrel, straight .600 or less, with a red dot or reflex sight with backup irons. |
+1 20"A2 is just fine for any outdoor SHTF scenario I can think of. Indoors, well, I do own a .40 Beretta. Head shots at CQB distances aren't all that difficult. |
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I don't know about PERFECT but... An ideal AR is 16" LW bbl 1/7 twist chrome-lined (of course) and FS. 1/9 twist would be OK too in my book. Aimpoint, Eotech, compact ACOG (preferred) certainly helpful, just as long as your irons are up and ready. A 14.5", while it looks better, is the "correct" profile and a tad handier, I would have to make it my second choice because of the unforgiving fragmentation range issues of the 5.56mm round. The 14.5" bbl severely restricts this to CQB only to 50m (for reliable performance). A 20" is too unnecessarily cumbersome for our purposes since we're mostly sticking to CQB(short) to medium ranges. As already stated, it makes a great service rifle for the open ranges. 10" ??? You gotta be nuts! But sure makes a nice, noisy showpiece  |
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CQB? I am not going to be clearing houses when the SHTF. I wants something that can reach across a small mountain valley with some relative accuracy. Thus I get my 20" A2. I can hunt, defend, and plink for the time being with it. Your right though, CQB isn't the 20" thing. But overall, I want the ballistics and accuracy. It's all a big list of pro's and cons. I weighed my list and came up with a 20" bbl. Someone else my weigh their list and come up with a 16" bbl. To each his own. I don't want to start a fight od 20" vs. 16". But for me, I want a 20". |
Which is why I have a rudimentary soloar electric system that will at least run some equipment such as my amateur radios a few lights and a small cooler. I hope to increase it's capacity in the near future. KAC |
| I'd take what doesn't (to my knowledge) exist. An 18" barrel, midlength handguards, with a medium contour (not HBAR, but not pencil either). Put a Daniel Defense free-float rail on the front, and have a flattop with a flipup BUIS and an ACOG and Aimpoint on QD mounts. Get a good solid telescoping stock like the magpul and you'd be good to go. |
Well we all know that the AK design is the pinnacle of reliability but in a SHTF scenario, I would not reply solely on it because its accuracy is, shall we say, less than stellar. But I am in no way bashing the AK. I own one in 7.62 and one in 5.45 and I love both. |
jar3ds: I don't consider 25 meters to be CQB distance, and I won't be clearing any houses except my own in a SHTF situation. Maximum 3 - 7 meters. I haven't won powerball, yet. |
Your above statement regarding fragmentation from the M4 is not entirely accurate. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=189353 Fragmentation threshold for 55g from a 14.5" M4 barrel is 90 yards. The 77 grain brings this up to 145 yards. |
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IMHO, a 1/9 twist, 16", A1 carbine with ARMS #39 plus mount and Aimpoint. I've got 20", 16" barrels and a11.5" barrel. I think the 1/9, 16" barrel is the best all around length. It is capable of using a wide variety of ammo. The Aimpoint is a nice addition. If the batteries die, just look through the Aimpoint until you find new batteries. The ARMS #39 and Aimpoint does add too much weight to the carbine. The A1 is a hardy upper and you don't have to worry about the sights falling off or getting knocked out of alignment. Some type of light would be nice but I'm not up to speed on weapons lights. I have a M6 but don't have a good way to mount it. If the SHTF, If you survive, you can always look around and maybe pick up weapons and ammo when needed. Pick and choose the combinations that fit the scenario. Colt_SBR |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Perfect SHTF AR-15? (Page 1 of 2)
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