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Posted: 1/9/2004 6:54:22 AM EDT
Sorry if it's been asked or the topics a  . I used search and found only similar questions but not the exact one.Concerning an out of state transfer, of a Pre-Ban lower receiver and an ATF Form 4473: Lowers transfered as lowers after the ban are simply lowers and for all intents and purposes revert to post ban status even if recorderd as leaving the factory as a completed Pre-Ban weapon. If a lower were to be transfered interstate through a dealer, that lower would, at the time of transfer on the FFL's forms be,recorded as a lower and reverted back to a posty for all of its future. So even if the rifle is shipped from the factory, as a completed Pre, then sold as a lower receiver (and recorded as such on a ATF dealers form), illegally re-assembled as a complete pre-ban, knowingly or not, then re-sold as a complete "pre-ban rifle", the newest owner is in possession of a post ban weapon w/ illegel pre-ban features, w/ no knowledge and/or intent therof. How does that work out in court? Should all purchasers of lowers and complete weapons attempt a history check? If thisanswer is right in front of my face then again I apollogize, but I'm not trying to be funny or a wise guy, I'm having a hard time figuring this one out. Thanks in advance. /S2 |
| When purchasing a preban, either complete or as a lower, I would definitely try to research the validity of its preban status. As for transferring a preban lower, it's kind of a grey area. In my opinion, if it is tranferred with a telescoping stock, it is technically still in preban status with the detachable magazine, pistol grip and telescoping stock. |
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Quoted: When purchasing a preban, either complete or as a lower, I would definitely try to research the validity of its preban status... I would imagine as far as a layman can go is a serial # check from the factory though, right? ...As for transferring a preban lower, it's kind of a grey area. In my opinion, [i]if it is tranferred with a telescoping stock, it is technically still in preban status with the detachable magazine, pistol grip and telescoping stock.[/i] HMMM...that's an idea, that would appear to be 3 of the features. Anyone have a definitive on this one? Oh yeah and for all the "chucklers" out there: [b]"It doesn't matter 'cause on September blah,blah,blah, the ban's going away."[/b] There I got it out of the way for you. |
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Yeh, that is what they say but if this is true then non of us have preban lowers because the second you take the upper off to clean or change it, it becomes a post ban. Check the serial number and if it is pre 94 don't worry about it. They could never get it to hold up in court anyway. |
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Quoted: No because you are only allowed 2 evil features, and the detachable mag and pistol grip take up the 3. Add telescoping stock and oops it becomes more deadly. The detachable mag isn't an evil feature, it's just a qualifier which allows other features to be evil. It has to be a semiautomatic rifle, with a detachable magazine to even have the option of being an "assault weapon". Then the features are counted (you're allowed one on a postban, it's usually the pistol grip). |
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Quoted: It could maybe be argued that without an upper it's technically not a "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon", and therefore exempt from any pre/post issues.. I dunno, just a thought. Correct, but since you cannot assemble a "semi automatic assault weapon", you're screwed by this approach. |
| I can only comment from a dealers standpoint that it makes no difference if the kitchen sink was attached to the lower receiver. The lower receiver IS THE rifle. It will not be recorded as anything other than a "rifle" in the dealers book and on the 4473. Preban, postban doesn't come into the picture from his chair. Its up to YOU the buyer to know your laws in your area. A call to the manufacturer will tell you if it left the factory as a complete rifle and thus a true preban. |
| I always thought a receiver was a "rifle" when it came to 4473's and was not required to be id'ed as a lower only on the 4473. Apparently I was wrong and appoligize for providing inaccurate information. I defer to Troy's link and I guess you learn something everyday when it comes to the myriad of gun laws and their interpretation. |
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Quoted: I can only comment from a dealers standpoint that it makes no difference if the kitchen sink was attached to the lower receiver. The lower receiver IS THE rifle. It will not be recorded as anything other than a "rifle" in the dealers book and on the 4473. Preban, postban doesn't come into the picture from his chair. Its up to YOU the buyer to know your laws in your area. A call to the manufacturer will tell you if it left the factory as a complete rifle and thus a true preban. Quoted: Quoted: Troy, How does one determine whether or not a pre-ban was [b]ever[/b] transfered as just a lower. I know how to determine whether or not it was assembled by the factory prior to 9/13/94, but if buyingf a used weapon/rifle, how could one positively determine? Good question, and unfortunately there's no one good answer. Ideally, you'd want to buy a rifle from the person who owned it on 9/13/94, because then you'd be the first person to transfer it since. But many "prebans" have changed hands multiple times since the ban, and many of them in "lower only" format. Unless you can document the history of the lower in question (and, yes, that's going to be impossible with many lowers), then you take the risk that there's a documented transfer somewhere of it being a lower only. If there was ever a question, ATF would track the gun from the manufacturer back to you, which will be possible in *most* cases. If they were to find an instance where the gun was transferred as not a complete "semiautomatic assault weapon", then your defense is blown. Thank God that this crap will all be going away for most folks. Those who have state versions of the law, though, will still need to deal with them, and things won't get any easier going forward. Again, the easier a rifle is to "prove" preban status, the higher the price generally is. The exception to this being old Colt SP1s, which are banned "by name" and not "by feature", so none of this stuff applies. The downside is the slab-side, large pivot-pin lowers, which makes them more difficult to interchange with standard parts. -Troy So we're not in agreement. And there's no clear message because my dealer's not sure either. I would tend to agree w/ Troy after reading the ATF website. However, w/ this much vaguery in the law isn't that a flaw in the law itself? How does one "knowingly" violate the law, or "intentionally" violate the law, if there's no reasonable means affordable to the individual to verify and or certify a lower's legal status? [b]Maybe it's just me. but I would think this is a very serious issue, re: our own equipment exchange, not very well known to even our many members. [red][size=3][i]A lower built at the factory into a "complete pre-ban weapon" is NOT necessarily a pre-ban weapon, when its purchased used as a lower, or a "complete weapon" if EVER transfered and recorded as a "lower", even if the manufacturer verifies its Pre-Ban status!!![/i][/size=3][/red] |
| Exactly. When I bought a preban a while back, all I needed was the lower. However, I had to buy the entire rifle. I had proof it left the factory in preban status, as a full rifle, and had it shipped to me that way so it would not loose it's preban status. Sucks balls. This crap should all end next September I hope. |
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