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Posted: 11/8/2003 7:13:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2003 7:15:10 PM EDT by jar3ds]
http://www.alexanderarms.com/images/gensight.jpg

I'm sure most of us have seen the Genghis .21 (5.45x39) AR-15 produced by Alexander Arms. I haven't found very much information of people who accually own this upper and I was wondering if any ar15.com users have these in their stashes?

Cabela's currently offers the .50 Beowulf upper by Alexander Arms but I can't seem to find anyone who sells the Genghis upper... Any suggestions?

how do you feel about 5.45x39 in the AR platform? A waste or does it accually have some purpose in certain situations... Alexander Arms claims: "terminal ballistics up to 20% improvement greater than the 5.56x45 NATO M855 (.223). ... It returns lower recoil than 5.56 x 45 M855 and has excellent short barrel performance" they also claim the availbility of cheaper ammo allows for more practice... etc...

It is interesting to me that 5.45 isn't velocity dependent when it comes to its ballistics... i'm curious too what kind of accuracy the round offers in stoners design... 1 MOA, 1.5... 2? I wonder too what kind of issues are involved with magazines... Would it only hold a limited number in a 5.56x45 magazines?

AK-74 users help us out with your knowledge as well...
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 7:39:02 PM EDT
Save your money. As one who owns multiple 5.45 and 5.56 platforms...I can't see high demand for a cartridge that is already slightly weaker than the already marginal 5.56. 5.45 is better left to the original owner, the AK 74. The commonality of the same lower using different caliber uppers doesn't benefit most folks. 458-SOCOM, yes. 50-Beauwolf-Yes. They are bringing a bigger footprint to the party. 5.45 brings a weaker cartridge to a crowded table already suffering from malnutrition. Jim
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 7:48:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2003 8:10:29 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By omar: 5.45 brings a weaker cartridge to a crowded table already suffering from malnutrition. Jim
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Weaker in what way? Balistics tests and after action reports in Chechnya show that the 5.45x39 projectile does even more horrific damage internally (wound profile) once it hits it's human target. This is because the projectile itself is longer than a 5.56 NATO bullet(see graphic) and for a similar weight bullet to the 5.56 NATO, the boat-tail hollow goes far deeper into the body of the bullet itself, almost a hollow base which contains a greater air pocket. If you are going to state that the 5.45x39 round is a weaker round, you might explain how it is in fact weaker. Less humane, perhaps. But weaker, I'm not so sure. As far as accuracy, although the 5.45 cartridge has proven to be far more accurate in the AK-74 than the 7.62x39 round was in the AKM, a fair comparison could only be done with the same rifle chambered in the two different cartridges, otherwise other factors come into play. I am certainly willing to listen to arguments on this. [img]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/cross%20section.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 8:16:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2003 8:17:47 PM EDT by jar3ds]
I agree _DR… its tumbling effect is insanely better than 5.56, because of the hollowed out encased tip. When it ruptures it destabilizes the round on impact with a fluid body... Causing it to flip and start spinning faster… 5.45 has penetration to clear both sides of a U.S. Kevlar helmet at 300 yards (according to David Fortier of Shotgun News)… also the Russians designed the bullet to tumble within 3 inches of a cavity. There are reports of 400 to 600 meter engagements with the 5.45x39 turning out to being very effective… The poor M4 can’t do that…
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 8:19:28 PM EDT
Anybody have some good ballistic numbers comparisons on the two? I did a brief search on google and came up empty handed. Ammo Oracle has nothing either.
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 8:29:15 PM EDT
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/barnaul_ballistics.htm is a start... :-) but this is just for barnaul ammo... the numbers for ballistics aren't going to reflect what the bullet does at the target... eg... a 9x19 FMJ and a similar massed hollowpoint may have similar ballistic numbers but what accually happens is due to the bullet construction...
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 2:13:06 AM EDT
I'll post a link to this in the AK side and see if any of them can bring more knowlegde to the table.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 5:36:15 AM EDT
[url]http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html[/url] Here is the data that shows the actual wounding potential of the military loading of the round compared to 5.56 and 7.62. The military round is ... difficult ... to get. I know of no definitive data showing the wounding potential of available ammo. The upper could be useful to someone operating in hostile territory where AK74's are used. They could harvest ammo after firing what they could carry on their person. Also, the sound of a 5.45 would not draw the immediate attention that a 5.56 would. And if it did, it would be difficult for someone intervening to determine which side was which by sound signature. Probably less pronounced of a difference if it were 7.62 v 5.56, but still worth considering.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:03:47 AM EDT
Both have their pros and cons. I like both rounds, and the platforms they are shot from. With that said, if I already did not have a AK74 variant, I would probably not make the investment to get an upper for my AR-I don't think any advantages the 5.45 has over the 5.56 would merit setting up my AR for the 5.45 round other than "just because I can".
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:38:37 AM EDT
The Wolf FMJ used to have the hollow cavity in the nose just like the military ammo. I know because I have shot a bunch of it. I think it is no longer imported. I also know from experience how deadly the 5.45 round is. About three years ago we had trouble with a HUGE possibly rabid dog in our neigbhorhood. It had tried to bite some people and kept one unarmed family in thir home for half a day. This thing was the size of small St Bernard and about as ugly as Janet Reno. I was walking in the woods with a SAR-2 with Kobra sight loaded wityh the Wolf ammo. I heard something behind me and turned to see this huge dog coming at me growling and foaming at the mouth. I put the red dot on his chest and put a round of Wolf center mass. This dog droped in his tracks. The dog almost exploded. There was an exit wound that looked like a baseball had passed through and there was pieces of dog blown all over the trees behind him. I have never seem anything like it.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:42:14 AM EDT
[b]Going on right now is a group buy for a custom made AR15.com SEAK-74.[/b] At $650.00 how can you go wrong ?? Personally, I change entire guns when I change calibers as that's the only way I feel comfortable. For the 5.56/.223 I shoot AR-15's/AR-180's/AR-18's, for 5.45 an SAR-2 or AK-74 and for .308 an AR-10 (or two). Others may well feel differently. 5sub
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:23:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Going on right now is a group buy for a custom made AR15.com SEAK-74.[/b] At $650.00 how can you go wrong ?? Personally, I change entire guns when I change calibers as that's the only way I feel comfortable. For the 5.56/.223 I shoot AR-15's/AR-180's/AR-18's, for 5.45 an SAR-2 or AK-74 and for .308 an AR-10 (or two). Others may well feel differently. 5sub
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Where can I find out more about the custom SEAK-74 group buy - I have a SAR-1 which is not bad, but I hate the quality of Century's "import replacement" trigger group, and that has made me hesitate buying a SAR-2, but I would like to obtain an AK74 clone if it is well made. Is it on the AK part of AR15.com?
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:33:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 8:34:26 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
I think it is no longer imported.
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Sportsman Guide has advertised it(wolf 5.45fmj) heavily in the past two months and I do mean FMJ. The barnul projectile has the same air pocket and is more accurate than wolf to boot. [img]http://www.alexanderarms.com/images/gensight.jpg[/img] Somebody likes their rhododendron! Bet this pic was taken in VA!
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 10:11:34 AM EDT
I have just received a AK-74 build from the gunsmith who is buildign the SEAK gun. For those of you who haven't shot them, Try one...You will love it. My weapon is as accurate as my Lightweight 20" AR. It kicks less than a AR (Any weight) 30 round mags are CHEAP...Picked up 10 for about $5.00 each with cleanign kits, strippers, and packs. Ammo is cheap...i get the BARNAUL for $85 per 750 Rnds, Shipped. If anyone wants an AK-type weapon, skip the 47 and get one of these, you wont be sorry. KyARGuy
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 10:31:16 AM EDT
I don't like the 5.45x39 round for two reasons. The hollow tip will prevent it from penetrating hard targets unlike the 5.56x45. Second, it dosesn't fragment, it just tumbles. Heck, a M855 will tumble too instead of fragmenting if the velocity is low enough. I say thumbs down to the 5.45x39. I see no need for it. If you want damage against soft targets get some soft point 7.62x39 and see the big hole it makes. If you want penetration against hard targets get a FMJ 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:15:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Going on right now is a group buy for a custom made AR15.com SEAK-74.[/b] At $650.00 how can you go wrong ?? Personally, I change entire guns when I change calibers as that's the only way I feel comfortable. For the 5.56/.223 I shoot AR-15's/AR-180's/AR-18's, for 5.45 an SAR-2 or AK-74 and for .308 an AR-10 (or two). Others may well feel differently. 5sub
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Where can I find out more about the custom SEAK-74 group buy - I have a SAR-1 which is not bad, but I hate the quality of Century's "import replacement" trigger group, and that has made me hesitate buying a SAR-2, but I would like to obtain an AK74 clone if it is well made. Is it on the AK part of AR15.com?
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_DR, there is a tack at the top of the AR Forum but best to head over to the AK Forum to see all the input from members. 5sub
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:39:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jar3ds: Alexander Arms claims: "terminal ballistics up to 20% improvement greater than the 5.56x45 NATO M855 (.223). ...
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If they say that, then they are either lying or don't understand ballistics. The 5.45x39 was an attempt by the Soviet Union to copy the 5.56x45. Unfortunately, the Russians didn't understand the wounding mechanism of the 5.56, and thought it was all about tumbling. They didn't understand that the PRIMARY wounding mechanism of the 5.56 (both the M193 and M855) was caused by explosive fragmentation. If you've ever retrieved a 5.45x39 bullet after impact with tissue or gelatin, you will see that it is still intact, but has bent into a crescent shape. Note the size of the permanent cavity of the 5.45 compared to the 2 5.56's. The largest permanent cavity is the length of the bullet (I'll have to measure, don't remember it offhand) by it's width (0.20"). The main cavity on the 2 5.56's are not dependent on bullet length/width, as they are the product of fragmentation. [img]www.btammolabs.com/images/wound.gif[/img] [img]www.btammolabs.com/images/woundm193.gif[/img] [img]www.btammolabs.com/images/woundm855.gif[/img]
Originally Posted By jar3ds: 5.45 has penetration to clear both sides of a U.S. Kevlar helmet at 300 yards (according to David Fortier of Shotgun News)… also the Russians designed the bullet to tumble within 3 inches of a cavity. There are reports of 400 to 600 meter engagements with the 5.45x39 turning out to being very effective… The poor M4 can’t do that…
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Actually, the "poor M4" has and does perform fairly well in long distance engagements all the time. However, the 75/77gr bullets are much better suited to this. Also, the M855 was DESIGNED to penetrate both sides of a (then) issued steel helmet at 600m, and it's capable of penetrating a single side out to 1300m. Something that even the 7.62x51 can't do.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 12:22:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 12:30:54 PM EDT by mk1iii]
Hey Jared- Glad to see you on AR15.com. Here's a few pic's for you. I say get both! It's only money right? The deer pic is not mine btw. I saw it on AK-47.net a long time ago. Someone said the 5.45 doesn't fragment only tumbles. I know the HP with an air pocket tumbles and frags like crazy. It's the only round I have ever owned (.22 up to 50 bmg)where I cannot recover a fired projectile. -Mark [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=19633[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=19629[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=19632[/img]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:47:11 PM EDT
Rod... wouldn't that be .22 to 25mm, instead of .50BMG? :D
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 3:32:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 3:32:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:21:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2003 4:33:46 AM EDT by DevL]
I sold my "campy clone" (SAR2 with accesories) due to the lack of the 5.45's ability to create wounds that are very large compared to 5.56mm ammo. It has inferior ballistics both external and terminal. Its a fun cartridge to shoot but it is not something I feel comfortable with using in self defense. It does not fragment and only yaws which 5.56 ammo does too. If you have evidence of 5.45mm ammo fragmenting I would like to see it as everything I have ever read or seen indicates the opposite. If you cant find the projectile I would assume its becasue it left the animal intact due to its penetration caused by lack of fragmentation. The good thing about it is the round has less powder behind it and is softer on the ears with no hearing protection. Ammo is dirt cheap too. If I wanted to shoot 5.45 Id get another AK74 clone. The 5.45 in an AR platform accomplishes nothing but a decrease in the cost of practice ammo and if you want that get a dedicated .22 upper IMO.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:26:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jar3ds: I agree _DR… its tumbling effect is insanely better than 5.56, because of the hollowed out encased tip. When it ruptures it destabilizes the round on impact with a fluid body... Causing it to flip and start spinning faster… 5.45 has penetration to clear both sides of a U.S. Kevlar helmet at 300 yards (according to David Fortier of Shotgun News)… also the Russians designed the bullet to tumble within 3 inches of a cavity. There are reports of 400 to 600 meter engagements with the 5.45x39 turning out to being very effective… The poor M4 can’t do that…
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Actually the 5.56 ammo does everything you mentioned. It yaws, punches through both sides of a kevlar helmet and has killed people at 400-600m. Oh yes it tumbles in 3-4" of tissue too. Then it has the added capability of fragmenting at close range which the 5.45 ammo lacks.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:54:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By jar3ds: I agree _DR… its tumbling effect is insanely better than 5.56, because of the hollowed out encased tip. When it ruptures it destabilizes the round on impact with a fluid body... Causing it to flip and start spinning faster… 5.45 has penetration to clear both sides of a U.S. Kevlar helmet at 300 yards (according to David Fortier of Shotgun News)… also the Russians designed the bullet to tumble within 3 inches of a cavity. There are reports of 400 to 600 meter engagements with the 5.45x39 turning out to being very effective… The poor M4 can’t do that…
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Actually the 5.56 ammo does everything you mentioned. It yaws, punches through both sides of a kevlar helmet and has killed people at 400-600m. Oh yes it tumbles in 3-4" of tissue too. Then it has the added capability of fragmenting at close range which the 5.45 ammo lacks.
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Amen, its amazing what happens when someones soo biased. So the soviets rechambered, thats a pretty insignificant statement if you realize how popular the M16 is with alot of militaries...
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