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Posted: 11/1/2003 9:59:31 AM EDT
Hi Everyone,
first post here and I searched around and read a lot of useful information.
I narrowed down my search to AR15 M4 Flat-top with removable handle either by Bushmaster for after all expenses $1100 or Olympics for about $900 after all expenses (tax, shipping, nics, dealer fees).
I would like to use the rifle for all around use, home defense, range shooting and etc..

I like how m4 looks, the telescoping type stock, m4 type barrel, the better handguards and etc.. I live in NJ I belive there should be no problem with with this barrel setup.
I have not decided why I really need removable handle but I want it. Please provide me with all of your input/suggestions and etc.

thanks.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:06:30 AM EDT
The way I see it, no reson NOT to have a removable carry handle. More options for later. You do know that if you have telescoping stock that actually works, you have to put it on a preban right? Personally, I would go with Bushmaster, though the price seems high for a post-ban, you might want to shop around. The price for the Oly sounds high to me too.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:12:23 AM EDT
If you have it narrowed down to the Bushmaster .vs Olympic I'd suggest the Bushmaster for the chrome-lined barrel. Look around on the Equipment Exchange, you'll find a better price than $1100. I believe Coal Creek Armory is selling Bushmaster so you may want to give them a try. Definitely get the A3 with the detachable carry handle. It's more versatile. Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:12:49 AM EDT
Agreed, you've done your homework well... go with the Bushmaster but shop around a bit for a better price...
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:16:55 AM EDT
First off welcome to the board. Like shadowblade stated these prices seem to high for a post ban. If you do some shopping around I'm sure you can find even a preban for a few dollars more. Especailly if you want a collaspable stock. As for the removeable carry handel I'd get it, because your going to need some type of a rear sight unless your going to put some optics on it.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:26:30 AM EDT
I would also recommend the Bushy. I paid $750 new for my Bushy M4 with a fixed carry handle. I know their prices have gone up since then, but you should be able to pick one up for less than $1100. Stick to the flat-top. I wanted to put a scope on mine after the first time I shot it. If you have the removeable carry handle, it leaves the option open if you want to add a scope or a red dot later.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 10:35:10 AM EDT
Vadim, I have had the opportunity to own more than 1 from several different manfactures. I have owned Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms and Eagle Arms. Bushmaster is good to go. No doubt I have one preban and several postbans. Olympic Arms makes a good product as well. I would have no problem with going with either of the ones I have listed. For what you are looking for, either one would fit the bill. Get the 16" barrel with the A2 Stock. The fake non collapsing stock is kinda of cheesy. I personally prefer to own the A2 stock. If you can see if you can find someone who will let you shoot their rifle so you can get a feel for what you like. The removable carry handle is a good thing. The ability to easily scope this rifle maybe something you want to do later down the line. Max
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 11:50:28 AM EDT
Great choice cant go wrong with bushmaster CDNN has what you want for $749+.99 get an ffl to do a transfer for $20.00 .Watch out for high cap mags in NJ 15 round is the limit .I lived in NJ for 30 years [morris county] and they have opressive gun laws .good luck
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 11:54:18 AM EDT
My advice is to build it yourself. Your going to want more than one rifle after you get your first one, and it's alot of fun. Plus I need someone new to ask the funny newb questions on the BUILD board so I'm not the only one:)
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 12:20:35 PM EDT
GO with either BM or RRA and getthe flat top its worth it down the line when you want to change configurations
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 12:32:21 PM EDT
Bushmaster AR15 M4 will serve you fine.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 12:44:33 PM EDT
Vadim, Welcome to the board. Like others have said, go with Bushmaster, might be a tad more expensive now but I think you’ll be better off in the long run. Defiantly get the removable carry handle, like [b]shadowblade[/b] said, it’s more options for later. You never have to take the handle off the A3 but if you ever decide to take the handle off the A2 you’re SOL. My cousin just bought a NIB Bushmaster M4A3 from a local dealer. Sweet little rifle, we put 400 rounds through it last weekend without one failure. His has the Mini-Y comp which I’d tell everyone to stay away from. All the noise and pressure comes right back into the shooters face, it is not a pleasant rifle to shoot. He paid $855 for the rifle and is going to be putting a bit more into it to get the comp off and something else on to the muzzle. I’d recommend just going with the 1-inch version. Best regards, J
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 1:09:13 PM EDT
I hate to pile on, but there is no reason [i]not[/i] to get a detachable carry handle. You can even mount optics directly to the handle if you want to, although mounting them directly to the receiver is a better choice. [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_Scope.jpg[/img] If you ever want to mount an Aimpoint, EOTech, or ACOG you will regret not having a flattop.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 2:29:24 PM EDT
Actually I went with an Olympic and th reason I went with one is Atlantic Firearms.com. The owner is great and he helped me bit by bit through the selection process. I got my oly arms car97m4 to me before trasfer 709.00. Bushy's are great but thats about 300.00 more than I wanted to spend on a for fun SHTF type weapon. my situation is different than most.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 4:48:27 PM EDT
Hi, First of all I would like to say thank you very much for your help and effort in explaining your opinions. This is one of the most friendliest boards I had ever seen. No one is screaming to use the search :). The reason I was sticking with olympics is because atlanticfirearms.com is offering it cheaper. The price is as follows. $799 for the rifle (Olympics M4 /w fake colapsable stock, and A3 carry handle) $20 shipping. $20 transfer fee. $15 NICS check. So you figure $855 +/- $50 for other crap. The bushy version of the same gun is $999 at the local dealer plus tax and nics.. $1100 :). Both guns I think have the Mini-Y comp. Is that really a down side? I kind of like how the fake telescoping stock looks. Where should I look for better prices? Once again thanks everyone. :)
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 5:26:44 PM EDT
FYI......avoid ASA like the plague.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 7:22:49 PM EDT
you can probably find the Bushmaster for a bit less.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 7:52:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2003 7:54:27 PM EDT by Stove_Pipe]
I baught my bushy from Ozarkguns.com. They were very pleasant to deal with on the phone and (very fast) shipping was $20 I believe. Here is the Bushy M4 postban [url]http://www.ozarkguns.com/Bushmaster/M4/bushmasterM4.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 8:18:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4arc: If you have it narrowed down to the Bushmaster .vs Olympic I'd suggest the Bushmaster for the chrome-lined barrel.
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Unless you want a rifle with a true transferable lifetime warranty. That's why I bought Oly for my first AR and have never regretted it.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 8:26:12 PM EDT
At that price get the Bushmaster modular model. Flip up front and rear sites, BMAS free floating Ras type hand guard, Houge grip, fluted chrome lined barrel, ACE stock and it's only 6.3lbs. It has it all except for optics.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 9:25:45 PM EDT
I just pick up a new in box colt m4 for $975.. from WEBARMS.com
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 9:41:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By texasM4: I just pick up a new in box colt m4 for $975.. from WEBARMS.com
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that is a great price
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 6:14:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2003 6:23:59 PM EDT by ar-jedi]
vadim, first off, good choice on the BM M4 -- with one exception. the catalog version BM M4 comes with an obnoxious muzzle brake. it makes it very uncomfortable to stand around you the shooter, due both to the noise and the gas. instead, you can get a "blunt" 16" barrel (see the patrolman's carbine bbl.) which gives you a few more FPS of muzzle velocity, is a legal 16" long, and suffers none of the noise drawbacks of the brake. as for the carry handle, i would say "skip it" and use the saved $100 for an ARMS #40 BUIS (back-up iron sight). this sight, on your flat-top, will allow you to use "irons" until you get an optic of some sort (like an Aimpoint, or Trijicon, or a magnified target scope). and, once you have your optic, the ARMS #40 can stay on the rifle, in it's folded position. so you'll only have to pay for your irons once (with the #40) rather than twice (once for the carry handle sight and then again for the #40 or equivalent). finally, go over to the EE and find chris @ eagle firearms [ [url]http://www.eaglefirearms.net/[/url] ] -- he can get you good prices on BM complete rifles and/or piece parts (lie the ARMS above). he worked for me. ps, get some extra 10rd BM mags and a LULA loader. ar-jedi
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 1:45:22 PM EDT
Hi Guys, I been doing some more research and trying to find a bushmaster for less but so far I didn't find any real deals. However I spoke with atlanticfirearms and the guy there provided me with some very interesting information. He says that Olympics arms m4's muzzle brake is removable with 3 hex screws making it a regular barrel. He claimed that the barrel is 16" without the muzzle brake and about and inch more with the muzzle brake. Thus making olympics a better deal for me. I'm running on a bit tight budjet because I still want to buy a ~$600-$700 lupold tacticle scope. However the guy over there kept saying that flatop is a "waste of money" because he says you still want to have an iron sight as well as the optics and if you are going to do the same thing on the a3 you'd be wasting extra $80 bucks. I told him, I like a3 for future upgrades and he agreed with me. He had many valid points as well such as if you are going to use the gun as home protection and you have to shoot someone, you won't be shooting with a scope :). Anyways please shine some light on this, Olympics looks like a killer deal. Lifetime warranty, 60 days money gurantee (even on fired gun), Around 100 bucks cheaper and removable muzzle brake at no extra charge? I'm not sure which mags it uses but I sure hope they are pretty good ones. - Vadim
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 5:11:46 AM EDT
Also does anyone knows if olympics arm m4's barrel is chrome lined or not? All the other questions are in the post above this one.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 5:41:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Vadim: Also does anyone knows if olympics arm m4's barrel is chrome lined or not? All the other questions are in the post above this one.
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No they are not chrome-lined.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 5:51:54 AM EDT
Can the barrel be changed either on bushmaster or olympics? or the whole upper has to be changed? Also when mounting a scope onto a flatop what needs to be done for it to be raised enough that it won't hit(I mean won't get in your way when looking though the optics) the sight on the end of the barrel? One more thing if I later wanted to install some kind of a rail system would it be ok with either bushmaster or olympics?
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 9:02:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Vadim: Can the barrel be changed either on bushmaster or olympics? or the whole upper has to be changed? Also when mounting a scope onto a flatop what needs to be done for it to be raised enough that it won't hit(I mean won't get in your way when looking though the optics) the sight on the end of the barrel? One more thing if I later wanted to install some kind of a rail system would it be ok with either bushmaster or olympics?
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You can change out the barrel without switching the whole upper. You might want to think about building your AR from a parts kit and stripped lower reciever. It's not that hard. With any kind of magnified optic the front sight will be blurred out. With an unmagnified optic(red-dot) then you will want to be able to see the front sight incase the optic dies. In this situation you would use your back up iron sights(BUIS) and aim with your irons, looking through the dead scope. Rail systems, they can always be added to a gun but with some rail systems(Free Floating) you cannot have a muzzle brake or permanently welded/pinned flash hider on the barrel as the rails will not slide onto the barrel. With other rail systems it is not a problem. Someone else will know more than I do.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:19:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 11:20:31 AM EDT by Vadim]
Thanks tivoli410, You sure that the barrels can be changed on the m4s? Because I spoke with the local dealer and he claimed that on the m4 bushmaster the barrel cannot be removed. You said with any magnified optics the front sight will be blurred out? Wouldn't this get in my way when aiming? Also for my 1st AR I don't want to be building anything, I just want to buy it and enjoy it and that is why I'm having hard time selecting what I should get.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 12:58:29 PM EDT
I'm going to build my second one. I'll have my first one as a guide. [heavy]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 1:14:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Vadim: Thanks tivoli410, You sure that the barrels can be changed on the m4s? Because I spoke with the local dealer and he claimed that on the m4 bushmaster the barrel cannot be removed. You said with any magnified optics the front sight will be blurred out? Wouldn't this get in my way when aiming? Also for my 1st AR I don't want to be building anything, I just want to buy it and enjoy it and that is why I'm having hard time selecting what I should get.
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Go to the "Build it Yourself" section of the AR Forums. There are many threads by first timers asking what is necessary. Lots of good info. To remove a barrel from the upper reciever *I believe* the only necessary tool is a barrel wrench, which is available from DPMS, Bushmaster, Brownells, etc. When looking through a magnified scope you will not be able to make out the front sight due to the magnification. When looking through an unmagnified optic (Aimpoint/EOtech/etc.) you will be able to make out the front sight but it wont necessarily get in the way because you will be focusing on the target and the front sight will be blurry. If your optic runs out of batteries or malfunctions. You can look through the dead sight and use your front sight along with a rear Back Up Iron Sight(BUIS) and be able to still aim. Very important if you are a soldier and find yourself in the middle of a battlefield and your optic is dead. Also, if you ever have to use your back up irons you will be able to clearly make out the front sight as that is what you are supposed to be focusing on. Optics - focus on target and place reticle Irons - focus on front sight and place target and rear sight The focus on the front sight with irons is the same with pistols, rifles, shotguns etc.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 1:17:57 PM EDT
Sounds like your guy is pushing that Oly really hard. Any AR barrel should be removable with the right tools.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 1:27:04 PM EDT
Altho I dont own an AR15 at this moment(Trade in progress as I speak) everything I read says the RRA is one of the best out there. It beat everything hands down. If I wasnt trading for one now I would surely buy one. do a search on the RRA and you will find nothing but positive posts. Heres one link.... [url]http://www.cruffler.com/Features/AUG-01/review-August-01.html[/url]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:12:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 4:14:47 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By Shadowblade: The way I see it, no reson NOT to have a removable carry handle. More options for later.
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For most people, this is true. However just be aware that if you intend to compete in DCM/CMP National Match Service Rifle, you cannot have a removable carry handle, it must be the A1 or A2 upper. The ruling is pending, but it has been pending for a couple of years, and may or may not change the rules anytime soon. Just something to be aware of. It was a consideration when I bought mine since I wanted to shoot Infantry National Match (rattle battle). If you don't plan to compete in DCM Service Rifle, the flat top is more versatile.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:29:16 PM EDT
Vadim- Welcome aboard! Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly or Armalite will all serve you well for the price. AVOID American Spirit Arms! You've heard flattop is the way to go. Pinned collapsible stock is cheesy. Happy shooting!
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:36:09 PM EDT
Vadim- You buy your first AR and soon it will look like this [red][url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=174074&page=1[/url][/red] Say goodbye to your spare change from now on!
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 7:33:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Vadim: Also does anyone knows if olympics arm m4's barrel is chrome lined or not? All the other questions are in the post above this one.
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I own a CAR97-M4. The barrel is not chrome lined but is stainless steel. Not a factor, chrome lining is for corrosion resistance on regular moly steel barrels. SS will be just as good if not better, especially in terms of accuracy. They are shipping the M4 with the new Black-Tec armor bolt carrier too, free of charge. I purchased mine in A2 config for a grand total of $832, including the horrendous 9.75% TN sales tax. I think will like the Olympic product, the VALUE can't be beat.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 7:48:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Vadim: However the guy over there kept saying that flatop is a "waste of money" because he says you still want to have an iron sight as well as the optics and if you are going to do the same thing on the a3 you'd be wasting extra $80 bucks. I told him, I like a3 for future upgrades and he agreed with me. He had many valid points as well such as if you are going to use the gun as home protection and you have to shoot someone, you won't be shooting with a scope :).
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IMHO this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. You definitely want the flat top and like others have said, skip the carry handle in favor of an ARMS #40 or other flip down rear iron sight. You might not be shooting with a magnified scope in your home but you sure as hell may be shooting with a red dot (EoTech or Aimpoint) which work better on a flat top. Get the chrome lined barrel if you can afford it but it's not a show stopper if you can't.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 8:15:50 AM EDT
Welcome to the site! I wouldn't get a detachable carry handle. Like ar-jedi said, skip it and buy a good BUIS (like the ARMS 40) for LESS than the carry handle.
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