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Posted: 10/30/2003 9:13:19 PM EDT
My 14 yr. old son was goofing around at a high school assembly and was bored and tired. He proceeds (yes, I know - in the current environment, foolish and stupid and he now realizes it and has written an apology to the school) to pretend to shoot the lame comedian on stage who was trying to be funny using his hand as an imaginary gun and blowing out the smoke from the end of his finger after each shot, totally juvenile and innocent - this lasted maybe a minute.

Security saw this and reported him and after the weekend comes the call from the Asst. Principal, who heads the threat assessment team. Proceeds to ask me a bunch of questions and I tell him I have several AR's including a a Colt M4magery and a Bushmaster Varminter, always in a locked gun safe with the ammo in a separate locked gun safe that no one but me has access to. Well, his demeanor changed when I said that. It seems like my 14 yr old, who I have taught gun handling, respect and safety since he was 5 yrs old, decided to be a smartaleck and challenged this authority figure by telling him he had no answer to why he did what he did(the Asst Principal is quite the condescending overbearing bully, but still I've made it quite clear to my kid - he is authority, respect him or basically, kid you screwed up and never behave inappropriately that way again!) Then when asked at the end of discussion what he should do about it, my son replies - why don't you just go ahead and call the SWAT team to come kill me! He was kidding since he thought it was ridiculous that he was brought down to the office a day after a very stupid and harmless incident. Yeah, I know, very inappropriate and I have heavily counseled my son on this. He was wrong and he knows it.

Long story short, my son writes an apology, I write an apology, but, the school proceeds to suspend him until a threat assessment team can decide if my son is a bona fide threat to the school.

I realize and acknowledge, as well as my son, that the whole incident was foolish, stupid, childish, inappropriate and will never happen again.

So I call the Asst Principal and have a discussion, but, he won't budge on the suspension, which is indefinite until they come to a conclusion, which may take 9 days, and may end in expulsion! I then point blank ask the Asst Principal - does the fact that I have firearms in the house, even if they are secure and my son has no access to them, mean that you are going to treat this case differently than if I didn't own firearms? He proceeds to say -YES! The fact that you own firearms means that we will treat your son differently! I just about freaked and asked him to repeat that so I can be sure I understand what he just said and he said it again - yes, your ownership of firearms means we will treat this case differently.

Hey, my son and I his actions were were foolish and inappropriate, even if he was just kidding around, But, I'm perturbed that this Asst Principal may be taking out his gun-hatred out on my son.

Sorry for the long posts, but I would appreciate your thoughts and advice. Thank you.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:32:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:33:18 PM EDT
Are you an NRA Member? If so, contact their Legal Department. Good luck and keep us posted.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:40:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 2:13:02 AM EDT by Tweak]
Originally Posted By 88balanced: I tell him I have several AR's including a a Colt M4magery and a Bushmaster Varminter
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Honest folks are going to be the death of the movement.[V] They have no right to ask, you have no responsibility to answer. Did you think telling him this would change his opinion? If he was not concerned there were guns in your house he would not have asked. "The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none of my business but--" is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use excessive force in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about." RAH. ah, found the quote I went looking for, much more concise. ""Go to hell!" or other insult direct is all the answer a snoopy question rates." RAH
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 10:19:31 PM EDT
I really perturbs me that teachers have taken this zero tolerance rule to the extreme... (Reference a straight A student in Texas - little girl - 4th or 5th grade - that was suspended for having a pocket knife that she used to sharpen pencil to get her excellent grades with)... Threat Assessment Team??? Common sense, especially after the apologies from both you and your son, would indicate that the "threat" has been dealt with... The [b]ASS[/b]t. Principle (the great and all powerful OZ) is full of himself, and is on a power trip... How anal can you get??? Some of the teachers need a career change - but hey, they belong to the teachers union so you're stuck with them... Sorry to see you in this situation. Might be a good idea to get the NRA lawyer if you think this school is being overbearing for no reason... [sniper2]
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 10:31:55 PM EDT
It's too late to change things now, but right or wrong, it was none of his business what guns you had in the house, and really, I'm sad that you actually told him. Just because someone makes a hand gesture, it doesn't mean it will lead to violence. I'd seek legal counsel, however, I am sure the school district will paint some sick picture of guns in the house, and even describe the guns in detail when push comes to shove. Hopefully, your son won't be expelled and blacklisted from public schools in your area.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:06:30 PM EDT
Shouldn’t have told him anything other than facts pertaining to the situation at the time. Guy doesn’t need to know if you have any firearms in the home or if you have a beer when you come home from work or… Wuda, cuda, shda; doesn’t matter now. Hope we all learned something there. Like Troy said; roll with it or lawyer up. I hate to say this, but despite what you’ve taught him, he isn’t acting appropriately. He might be looking at a real hardcore lesson here. You also gotta understand, the asst Principal is the disciplinarian, it’s his job to be hard assed and he’s probably following protocol and won’t deviate unless told to do so by an attorney. When I was in school the AP had a big wooden paddle, if you go called in to the office you’d get whacked on the ass with it but that was always the end of the problem. Hope it works out. -J
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 12:01:23 AM EDT
Your son seems to be a discipline problem, had he appologised and shut his mounth none of this would be happening. My mom was an Asst Pricipal in a high school. His suspension sounds well deserved but expulsion is not if this is his first run in with the administration. However we dont know if he has previous run ins with with the school. If he does and he acted that way to the asst principal he will probably be sent to an alternative school for bad kids for the rest of the year and they will judge by his actions on whether or not he gets to come back next year.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 12:48:06 AM EDT
I can't believe some of the replies here. The incident was blown way out of proportion. A 14 year old pointing of finger and going bang bang is not a discipline problem child. Their was a comedian on stage and it sounds like he was trying to be funny himself either because he was bored or because he was trying to get attention, both not being anything but normal for a 14 year old that is sitting for too long or with a group of others his age. In this day and age if it were a realistic toy gun or something I could see it, but a finger. Also in this day and age it would have been wise to lie to the assistant principal and tell him you don't own guns, I think that it was clear where he was going and you gave him ammunition to back his position of being worried. People who are not comfortable with guns look at them like they will just jump off the table and start killing people by themselves and it is easy to get support for their position especially at a school. If your son gets suspended and misses even a day at school I would get an attorney and get in his ass. Pointing a finger and saying bang bang should not get you suspended from school (unless it is oviosly meant as a threat to another student or faculty). Their was no threat or anger involved in the kids actions and the whole thing is stupid. Your son also should not be penalized because you are a gun owner even if you just had them lying around where he could get ahold of them. We all know if a teenager wanted to get ahold of a gun they could get one easy. If you don't want to pay the money for a attorney (they can be unbelievably expensive) go over the pricipal head to the school district, I would even write a letter to your local polititions and maybe even congressman or senetor (make sure you get one that is pro gun) and explain your outrage at your son being penalized for your gun ownership. I haven't heard anything you said to make your kid out to be a discipline problem or a bad kid in any way. When athority types question you it is often a good thing to tell them you don't know why you did it or what you were thinking, they often will use things you say against you later, kinda like you admitting to having guns in your house. I have a saying when someone is in trouble that I have told people for along time now and it is " never admit shit" It puts the burden on them to prove your guilt. Never give them anything they could use. I don't think your son was neccisarally a smart alleck for telling him he didn't know why he did it, what good would it have done him to tell the principal to say I was bored or I was trying to get a smile out of Becky Sue with the short skirt.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 1:05:34 AM EDT
My two problems: 1) That assistant principal didn't need to know if you had any guns in the house. "Sir, do you own any guns?" "That is a) a very personal question, and b) none of your fucking business." (well, edit for profanity.) 2) Why in the HELL did YOU have to write an apology?!!?! Was this a requirement from the school? "Sir, your son, and YOU need to write an apology to us." "Sir, blow it out your ass." (well, edit for profanity. Or not!) The public school system in this country is a joke, now more than ever. I have two daughters, 4 and 2. When they start school, they will be under strict orders not to submit to any of this bullshit ("home safety" surveys, talking about Daddy's guns, etc.). They love to watch me load mags, clean my guns, they fetch little things for me while I'm doing it, etc. I think that's healthy. They're taking an interest in firearms. Of course, the school system thinks that's inherently wrong. mutter.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 1:46:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By whywork40: " never admit shit"
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Ah, a corollary to "Special Forces legal counsel" 1. Lie. 2. Deny. 3. Make counter accusations. [:D] Sign no forms, make no statements, ask for an attorney. The apology you signed/wrote is evidence that you know you (and your son) did wrong. It's admissable in court. I don't make the rules, I just laugh at them.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 2:44:44 AM EDT
I can tell you that many school district define threatening gestures as pointing finger guns and making throat cutting gestures as threats. He went to the office for this violation of school policy (whether or not you agree with it is of no concern) and then talked smack instead of flying low and avoiding a problem. That is a discipline problem. Much like in real life if you do something that catches the eye of the authorities its best to not talk shit to them as they can figure out a way to send you to jail.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:05:19 AM EDT
Sounds like a good reason for you and your boy to take off and go fishing. Look at it as a "vacation" and have some fun while he's off from school. Also, I wouldn't have said jack to the guy without a lawyer present. He's not an LEO, he's the principal at a school and as such you don't own him a single word on the subject. Sometime it's better to say noting, let them have their fun and go on about your business. Hope ya'll can get this thing resolved. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:12:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 5:14:24 AM EDT by 88balanced]
Thanks for the responses, let me clarify: Yes I am NRA, but it seems they don't support these type situations - at least that is how I read their legal assistance section on their website. Yes, I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. Only reason I told which rifles I owned is that my son told them he was expert in rifles, mentioned the M4, blah, blah, - a bit of bravado and defiance - obviously in poor judgement on his part. No, I don't think my son is a discipline problem, he is just a 14 yr. old kid. Did he mouth off to the Asst. Principal - you bet. Has he recognized the error of that - you bet - he wrote an apology. Is that acceptable behavior - no, and I have emphasized that repeatedly to him. Do I recognize that all threats should be taken seriously no matter how minor? Yes - my issue is one of why suspend the kid while they investigate when he has never been a threat, he's an A/B student, active in theatre, Karate, etc., and why the sudden change in demeanor when I mentioned AR, and then the admittance that owning firearms is a reason to look at this case differently.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 7:45:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 88balanced: Thanks for the responses, let me clarify: Yes I am NRA, but it seems they don't support these type situations - at least that is how I read their legal assistance section on their website.
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I'd give 'em a call anyway. Can't hurt. Best of Luck with the situation. I'd get a lawyer. I remember being a kid and we used to play cops and robbers in school. Suspension/explusion is just absurd in this situation. In my high school there were kids who would bring REAL guns to school (the particularly bad ones). Back in the early nineties the admistration would take the gun... not report it (cause it would make the adminstration look bad to have guns in a 'gun free zone') and often send the kid back to class. One teacher quit cause a kid pulled a gun on him in the middle of class and the principle sent the kid back to class after taking the gun!!! Your kid was just playing around and joking like normal kids do. Kids will be kids. I don't see the threat in your situation. Sounds like the morons in your administration don't know what a real threat is.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 7:53:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 7:54:28 AM EDT by Tcknudsonjr]
Originally Posted By R_S:
Originally Posted By 88balanced: Sounds like the morons in your administration don't know what a real threat is.
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To the anti-gun left, innocent law abiding gun owners are the threat!!
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 7:55:36 AM EDT
When push comes to shove lawyer up and Call the school super.....these piss ant blowhard assistants are just glorified secretaries with some sort of pseudo power..... Seriously call the superintendant and end this BS fucking people make me sick
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 8:04:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TNFrank: He's not an LEO,
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Uh, even if he was, the only thing you have to give him is a name, not even YOUR name, a name. The fastest way (if there is any question of your guilt and when the cops are talking to you there is a question) to wind up in jail is to say more than the absolute bare minimum when talking to LEOs. They are trained listeners and will pick up on ANY inconsistency and use that incosistency as grounds to further question you. They're pros, they do it every day, don't underestimate them. "Anything you say CAN AND WILL be used against you in court" "Do you understand these rights as I've explained them to you?"
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 8:38:46 AM EDT
I would just sell one of those AR's you've got and put him in catholic school for a year. Believe it or not, they will let your son get away with much more than public schools, and its just an overall better environment. Public schools are a fucking joke.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 8:51:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I can tell you that many school district define threatening gestures as pointing finger guns and making throat cutting gestures as threats. He went to the office for this violation of school policy (whether or not you agree with it is of no concern) and then talked smack instead of flying low and avoiding a problem. That is a discipline problem. Much like in real life if you do something that catches the eye of the authorities its best to not talk shit to them as they can figure out a way to send you to jail.
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You're a cop, aren't you.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 9:47:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By DevL: I can tell you that many school district define threatening gestures as pointing finger guns and making throat cutting gestures as threats. He went to the office for this violation of school policy (whether or not you agree with it is of no concern) and then talked smack instead of flying low and avoiding a problem. That is a discipline problem. Much like in real life if you do something that catches the eye of the authorities its best to not talk shit to them as they can figure out a way to send you to jail.
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You're a cop, aren't you.
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[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 10:01:19 AM EDT
Well fuck, here I was defending the kid and now new information comes to light. If the kid went and told the principal he was a rifle expert and told him about the M4 and others then it's another story. Now the principal has reason to be concerned, about the kid being a threat and about your firearms at home. The rifle expert comment was a crucial piece of information to leave out of the original statement. Now I get the talking smack thing. Why in the world would he tell the principal that he was a gun expert? I could see telling the principal that he didn't know why he did it and I wouldn't consider that talking smack but telling the principal he is a gun expert may have been taken as a personal threat by the principal. In that case I can see the principal going off on the kid. Devl, I don't think the kid by making the gun shooting gesture was making a threat to the comic. If he was your right for sure, on both counts.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 11:20:03 AM EDT
When your son mentioned guns, the AP probably thought "Columbine." He was NOT going to be the one hung out to dry for letting something like that happen on his watch. Even a 14 year old should know not to talk about guns AFTER BEING ACCUSED OF MAKING A THREATENING GESTURE. Now he needs to pay the piper. Look on it as a valuable life lesson.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 11:37:46 AM EDT
Your son sounds like any other 14 year old. My 14 brother-in-law lives with us now, and sometimes I wonder how the heck he can be so stupid sometimes, but everyone I have talked to about teenagers says the same thing. He pulled some BS last year at his school in TX, and that's why he is here with us now. His Grandmother wasn't able to keep him straight. Good kid, just does not think everything through all the way yet. I don't know what to tell you about your son's school. I wish you and your son the best, and hopefully everything will turn out okay. Make sure to check back with us on how everthing goes. John
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 11:45:15 AM EDT
Not to hijack your thread or anything but I'm a a sophomore right now (15 years old) and my father is an assistant principal at another school... he has a S&W cylinder on his desk to hold pens. He even holds his office referals in between four .357 casings hot-glued to a piece of wood. I saved up my money for a carbine and he bought it. Even though he is an active member of the NRA and an avid shooter/hunter, he must follow up on such issues very aggressively... who wants to read about themselves as a person who allowed a second comlubine to develop? Definitely not him. I just wanted to give an opinion from the opposite side of this discussion. I agree with you though, Expulsion = BS. If a kid would get expelled for that my father would be out of work in a second. He even has a framed picture of me shooting my carbine on his desk at work. Good luck.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 12:07:06 PM EDT
you should have never, never told him you have any guns, bad move
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 4:16:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 4:37:18 PM EDT by 88balanced]
Thanks for the feedback, great comments. 14 yrs. old = stupid mouthing off to authority = stupid saying he was a rifle expert = stupid telling them we had rifles = stupid 14 yrs. old = stupid, enough said? Does that warrant a suspension? By the way, to show you what a di%k the asst principal is, when I asked him if he had received the apology from my son, his response was - he didn't sign it! Responsible gun ownership - protected by the 2nd ammendment. AR ownership - totally legal in Arizona. Kid has absolutely no access to any firearm unless under my direct supervision. Does ownership of firearms allow any authority, even schools, to treat the situation differently when there is no access, at all, to the firearms and when it was a harmless, stupid prank? Who is being punished here?
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:13:17 PM EDT
Go to your school board meetings and raise hell with the board. Call your state dept of education and raise hell. Be a major PIA until your son is back in school. Suspension for pointing your finger? Holy shit. The AP is a dickhead on a power trip, and I would tell him so to his face and spend the rest of my life getting him fired. Ops
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:15:02 PM EDT
Get a lawyer! Let me say that again - GET A PRO GUN LAWYER (call the NRA for a source - this is the least they can do for your membership dues)! You can bet your ass that the school board has one. They will have no problem flushing your sons future down the toilet to either get votes or court public favor. DONT let them screw you or your son over! Remember, YOUR taxes are paying for you and your son to be treated this way. Did he screw up? YES. Is he guilty of poor judgement? Yes. But this is why we dont let 14 year olds drive, vote, own guns or buy beer. They are supposed to be and do stupid things. Just because he's 14 and exercised poor judgement doesnt mean he should be screwed over and have his future totally screwed - eg getting into college, going into the military are just a few examples of how his future options could be severly limited by some assholes political agenda.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 6:06:44 PM EDT
I would seriously consider getting a Lawyer, as much as I hate saying that you have no other real option. 14 year old boys unfortunately dont now when to stop the smart ass comments and the hole gets deeper and deeper. To often Children do not understand the consequences of their actions, not only does this affect his future but it also could affect yours. It sounds as though you have made this clear to him. H. dont EVER tell anyone about what firearms you own, its one thing to be a proud gun owner, I understand but NON- Gun owners do not understand anything about firearms except the misconceptions they here on the news. I have been asked by several friend of mine and my wifes to take them shooting. I love to do it, But EVERY time I pull out an AR they think it is some Awsomely powerfull Military Taboo GUN that have exploding bullets for it like in the movies, thats how it is right? Obviously the assessment team may now sees this and you as a potential threat purely out of ignorance. Get an Attorney bro, Just in case! On a side note, I have faced a similar situation, My famly and I just recently switched Pediatricians for my 3 young children, My wife took them for their initial visit and introduction, I was unable to go. One of the first questions the Doctor asked my wife was "do you or your husband have firearms in the home?" My wife siad yes, SHE then began to lecture my wife about locking them up and keeping them out of reach of the children. To this my wife interupted her and stated that "WE" are responsible Gun owners and have more common sense than crack dealers on the Bad side of town who leave Guns out on the table for their Unfortunate children to play with. At this she stopped and moved on to another subject. When I heard this from my wife I was absolutely ticked off, How dare this arogent, egotistical, self rightious Doctor question my responsibility based on the fact I own Guns. I was just about to call her when It hit me, It doesnt matter what I say it wont do anything to change her pre conceived notions. I called the next day and found a new Doctor and had all my files sent to the new doctor and never even told them why, I simply said we did not like her for personal reasons. chuck
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 8:38:13 PM EDT
Enough Said? nope. You can't say 'stupid' and expect the whole thing to just go away. Drugs in school = huge problem Guns in school = huge problem Just how, after the kid has made threatening gestures and claimed to be a gun 'expert', do you expect the school administration to say 'boys will be boys' and forget the whole thing. He suspended pending a 'threat assessment'. While this might have been defused up front, if the kid hadn't dug the hole deeper, now he's in up to his neck and you need to chill out and let it all play out. If there is more too it than a few days suspension, you'll need to get a ruling, in writing, on what they have based their decision. Then you can decide what you need to do next.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 9:30:11 PM EDT
The asst. principle is an asshole. I graduated from high school last year and every person with athority was on a power trip. I used to read Guns and Ammo and SWAT just to F&^$ with all the arses. You should really consider getting a lawer.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 5:37:29 AM EDT
Just forget about it and move on. Consider it a lesson learned. Any further attempts to change their decision will only result in them digging in deeper and punishing you and your son more, or have you not figured that out yet?
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 8:37:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2003 8:55:18 AM EDT by TX65]
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 2:03:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ops: Go to your school board meetings and raise hell with the board. Call your state dept of education and raise hell. Be a major PIA until your son is back in school. Suspension for pointing your finger? Holy shit. The AP is a dickhead on a power trip, and I would tell him so to his face and spend the rest of my life getting him fired. Ops
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And while you're at it, find out why the hell school time was being used for Comedy Acts. This is NOT an appropriate school function. I have to wonder if your son would have pulled his stupid stunt if the school had been presenting him with Math problems or English reading assignments at that moment, instead of COMEDY ACTS???? Sounds like one stupid stunt provoking another.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 3:16:32 PM EDT
i wish you good luck in this but this is npt a lawyer game anymore after columbine. a lawyer will cost you a lot of money for a case that if you win will remove any notion of consequences in our schools as it is. if your kid had simply said he was trying to be funnier than the comedian you might have a case but he diddnt.he shot his mouth off about what he knows about guns and indicated he was a real threat not just a kid shooting off his mouth. add an apology and an addmission of guns in the house and what did you expect them to do? your son will hopefully learn a real adult lesson from this that there are consequences for even dumb actions in the wrong setting. as an aside in todays day and age any parent should tell their kid to not admit guilt or complicity in any act criminal or civil because kids are no longer given a paddling and sent home, those days are over and you need to protect your child from the law
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 9:03:30 PM EDT
Sounds like the best advice...wait for the school system to do their thing and give you a formal document of their decision. Your son was stupid and while you have probably made him well aware of this, he needs to learn that there are ramifications of his actions that Dad can't make go away. IMHO, the most stupid thing he did was telling the principal that "he is a rifle expert" during a disciplinary meeting. To me, at that point, the original reason for the meeting became moot and that statement is being construed as an implied threat. Top that off with when your son is asked about what the school should do about all this and he asks to have the SWAT team come and ... Your already lucky that the principal didnt call the cops and have your son removed from the building with those two statements... Sounds like the principal is not as big of a jerk as you claim him to be. If all your son gets from the school is suspension, consider yourself lucky. If it were my son, at the very least, his days of supervised shooting would be over until a point in time when he was mature enough to be responsible with guns and gun topics.
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Lots of divergent views - I like this one and it's the direction I am taking. Kid needs to learn that there are consequences when he mouths off and he will pay the price. He needs to know that there is responsibility associated with firearms and anything to do with them including talk. He will not be shooting until he demonstrates he has reached a maturity level where he can be trusted. The only thing that still bothers me is that they are treating this case differently because I own an AR, even if the kid has absolutely no access to it - who is being punished?
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 11:26:53 PM EDT
that prejudice sucks but i think you're wise to cut your losses now because i can't think of a good reason for him to want to know about what type of guns are in your house. and that it could very easily be made to seem like you were threatening him. telling someone you have a gun at anytime is a pretty serious thing. your son already faces some serious trouble but as a minor it should be temporary.. if words and actions get twisted any more than they already have been YOU could be looking at jail time. Take your lumps, move on. to save your kids future i'd even vow to remove all of your weapons(don't really do it but say you will, it's none of their damn business so tell them what they wanna hear). of course you have a right to own them but i think it's time to kiss some ass to keep your kid out of a bad to worse situation however you can. i don't know many expelled kids that turned out very well. it's a hard rep to get away from. good luck, really. as a child i got in pretty bad situation like this. as a 2nd grader with knives. get off this ride as soon as you can. then beat the hell out of your kid some more.. there's talking smack and then there's talking about shooting people. with any luck this is just an isolated incident and he's learned his lesson without ruining either of your lives which with only a little more bad turn it could certainly do.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 5:09:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2003 5:11:44 AM EDT by TX65]
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 11:22:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2003 11:30:00 AM EDT by _DR]
One solution would be to blow off the silly school and send your son to a private military academy that takes all ages - expensive, but you wouldn't have to worry about discipline, and they would teach him more about gun handling and the like as he matures, including what is politically correct to say and what is not. He might not like it at first, but it might prove to be a postitive experience in the end. I have known some men whom I served with that attended such schools, and they said they wouldn't have had it any other way. Talk such as what you described would be handled by his mentors, not hysterically reported as a "threat" like the leadership of many public schools obviously do, because of their leadership ineptitude. The poor quality of leadership and lack of discipline in public schools is often the problem more than the "expelled" or suspended children themselves in many cases. This "gun hysteria" that seems to be prevalent in our public schools does not help anyone, it does not promote anything but fear, IMO.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 4:43:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2003 5:53:59 PM EDT by axl]
I'm a JROTC Instructor at a large high school, also have a indecent number of guns and ammo around. Working with administrators and counselors daily and shooting weekly I have a foot in both worlds. Dealing with 14-18 year olds all day also provides a perspective, and having raised three of my own really puts creedence to "I feel your pain". 1. Administrators are terrified of kids and guns. Really afraid. Their purpose in life and they really mean it is to provide a safe place for kids. (They are sort of like the Marines, fucked up but believe totally that they are right and everyone else is wrong.) 2. What they saw was a kid, and they know they are kids cause they have them longer every day than you do, make an obvious threatening gesture meaning harm to another person in a public forum. Flipping a bird would have been better. 3. There was no remorse in the counseling on the kid's part, then you inform them that there are real "evil" guns in the house and your son knows how to use them. So you have a threatening gesture, no remorse, weapons in house, and expertise in their use. 4. Now you and the administrator are not being civil, he feels threatened by you and intimidated knowing that you have "evil" guns in the house. This justifies his position on the other points. This is really gonna piss you and most others off, but they think they are saving the kid from self destruction and a from parent who allow his son exposure to dangerous items capable of mass destruction. Only one way out of this: Eat crow, humble yourself, apologize, tell them you and your son needs counseling, lie like a three dollar whore at a naval station and tell them whatever they want to get your son back in school and out of the headlights until something else happens. And get your preacher, your neighbors, boy scout leaders, sunday school teachers, anyone you can find to go to the hearing. Administrators are intimidated by crowds. Then maybe the school board will drop it. You might win this by fighting but the administration sees it as something really threatening. rk
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 8:05:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By axl: I'm a JROTC Instructor at a large high school, also have a indecent number of guns and ammo around. Working with administrators and counselors daily and shooting weekly I have a foot in both worlds. Dealing with 14-18 year olds all day also provides a perspective, and having raised three of my own really puts creedence to "I feel your pain". 1. Administrators are terrified of kids and guns. Really afraid. Their purpose in life and they really mean it is to provide a safe place for kids. [blue](They are sort of like the Marines, fucked up but believe totally that they are right and everyone else is wrong.)[/blue] [red]I don't think The Marines are fucked up[/red] 2. What they saw was a kid, and they know they are kids cause they have them longer every day than you do, make an obvious threatening gesture meaning harm to another person in a public forum. Flipping a bird would have been better. 3. There was no remorse in the counseling on the kid's part, then you inform them that there are real "evil" guns in the house and your son knows how to use them. So you have a threatening gesture, no remorse, weapons in house, and expertise in their use. 4. Now you and the administrator are not being civil, he feels threatened by you and intimidated knowing that you have "evil" guns in the house. This justifies his position on the other points. This is really gonna piss you and most others off, but they think they are saving the kid from self destruction and a from parent who allow his son exposure to dangerous items capable of mass destruction. Only one way out of this: Eat crow, humble yourself, apologize, tell them you and your son needs counseling, lie like a three dollar whore at a naval station and tell them whatever they want to get your son back in school and out of the headlights until something else happens. And get your preacher, your neighbors, boy scout leaders, sunday school teachers, anyone you can find to go to the hearing. Administrators are intimidated by crowds. Then maybe the school board will drop it. You might win this by fighting but the administration sees it as something really threatening. rk
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But I do agree with everything else you posted. After all the school shootings that have occured over the past few years, the Administrators have a right to be scared, and therefore, overly cautious. Glad to have you back, Imbroglio. [:)]
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 9:35:50 PM EDT
You set up an appointment to meet with the superintendent... with your lawyer. The word "civil suit" works wonders.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 11:59:25 PM EDT
Contact a lawyer if the AP is going to threaten expulsion or anything that would affect your son's permanent academic record. Perhaps he would sing a different tune while talking to your attorney.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 12:19:28 AM EDT
Goddamn - this is why we're in the political climate we are as far as guns go. I can't believe all of the people here saying that it's a bad idea to admit you own legal firearms. Jesus - this is the kind of shit that really makes me wonder if the country will turn around or not. Denying you own firearms to prevent "hassles"??? Nothing burns my ass more than being in a conversation at work with antis - all by myself on the pro-gun side - and then ten minutes after the conversation is over, some fucking fly on the wall will stroll over and quietly divulge that they are gun people too. More sickening than the sheep who think guns are bad IMO. Mark 14:72 - And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept. 88balanced - What your son did wasn't smart in this fucked up political climate we live in, but I don't think the boy's actions were worthy of suspension - certianly not expulsion. The follow-up smartass comments from your son didn't help - BUT HE STILL DIDN"T MAKE ANY THREATS. Suspension or worse, expulsion, for making dumb comments is harsh. I'll rephrase - expulsion would be rediculous. He didn't threaten anyone - he didn't tell his teacher to fuck off - he made some stupid comments. An ass beating from dad ought to be the end of it. Get a lawyer. I think your son has been traumatized by these events - possibly to the point of your family requiring compensation... Jeez - I sound like a liberal - whining that you need a lawyer - but in today's world - you just might need one.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 12:27:20 AM EDT
Forgot to add - better tell your kid to tow the fucking line at school from now on. I've told my son (13) this. if you ever get into trouble, it will help if all of your teachers say you are the most polite, most well behaved kid in their class.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 8:02:36 AM EDT
So what was the outcome?
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:43:12 AM EDT
'its better to remain silent and thought of as a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt'
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 12:56:41 PM EDT
I had the same thing happen to my children (1 boy, 2 girls) when they were alone with a doctor. He asked "do you have guns in your house". I told them to be polite and if asked that ever again to say "that's none of your business, if you have any more questions like this ask my father". They are now 21,20, and 16. I have also told them that if they are ever questioned by a police officer to be polite and say " I'm not taking the 5th but will only answer questions if my lawyer is persent". In Pennsylvania it's illegal for a cop to question anyone under 18 unless a parent or lawyer is present. I wish it were the same for school adminstrators.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 1:06:57 PM EDT
Get a lawyer...not just any old lawyer, not a semiautomatic one, not even a full auto lawyer, but one who has a reputation as a destructive device! Someone who is loved by his clients and utterly despised by the local district/state's attorney's office. Have you ever OWNED a school before? Get the right lawyer, and you MIGHT. At least you can have the principal's balls for a trophy...and maybe his ass, too. This demands action on your part. Remember, zero tolerance means zero thought. If your son is subject to a zero tolerance policy (and this incident sounds like he is, whether it's been said out loud or not), then you MUST do all you can to make those thoughtless idiots miserable in court. There was a time when childish pranks were nothing but that. That day will come again, but only if we STAMP OUT THE ZERO TOLERANCE CROWD or at least eliminate their influence. This is best done by showing the world that they are indeed the idiots that they appear to be. You've got your fire mission. Go do it, and don't disappoint us...or yourself, or your son. CJ
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 2:31:24 PM EDT
This is a pretty ridiculous situation. If 'shooting' people with your finger gun were really threatening then we'd have to lock up the president. He's always banging away with that finger of his, and HE'S got a shitload of guys with guns that'll do whatever he says :). It seems like at this point you're kinda screwed. Unless you wanna dump a boatload of cash into some lawyer's pocket for a VERY uncertain result. Save you're fight for later, when they tell you your kid has missed too much school and will hafta repeat his grade.
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