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Posted: 10/27/2003 7:01:05 PM EDT
well i was giving a free left side bolt handle for my ar. it was done by Lee Hadaway at
the arms room www.thearmsroom.com well i gave it a good look see and
it didnt look to bad. any ways i had the chance to take it to the range yesterday and ran
a little over 500 rounds thro it with the new bolt mod.

well i have found out what a great item it is. at first i had some fail to chamber stopages
( these were due to a fauled chamber(lack of cleaning after gunstock) and mag related
problems nothing to do with the new bolt mod) one of the better parts of the ned mod
is that i normaly look at the left side of the recver when i release the bolt to chamber a
round from a new mag, and with the new bolt mod you can tell very easy if the bolt
didnt go in to full battery because the slot in the recver is cut so that the bolt handle
stops very close to (it see pic below).
and it makes it VERY easy to cock and and if need be re-cock the weapon with out
moving from the firing position and with out moving the muzzle out of the "safe zone"

Lee also replaces the bolt release with one that has the top button milled off so your
not temped to push it to drop your bolt and get wacked by the new bolt handle.
still every easy to lock the bolt to the rear with only 1 hand.(i think thats a good idea)
to release the bolt when its locked to the rear just give the new bolt handle a little flick
and it flys home. also if you wish you can still use the normal charging handle the normal way.

I also used it with my tac-vest and didnt have any problems with it getting snagged even tho it
sticks off the side of the recver about 1.5 inchs. it is just the rite size to grabe with 2 fingers.

the only real "problem" i noticed was the bolt handle did vibarte a little lose after about 500 rounds
but that was MY FAULT i didnt follow the direstion that came with it. it was stated rite on the invoice
that lee suggests to use blue lock tight after cleaning it..will i didnt and only had to give it a little twist tight agine
and all was fine.

final thought are that lee does GREAT work, the mechined slot in the left side of the recver is smooth and not a
sharp edge to get cut on,the hole and threads on the bolt( he drills and taps a hole in your bolt to install the handle) were cut
straight and true. IMHO very great work.aslo the extra "slot" in the left hand of the recver does make lubing and cleaning
much easeyer
over all i would rate this bolt mod as a 9.8 out of 10

well if anyone has any questions feel free to ask
thanks
tattoo
ray
BTW no one paid me to for this review but if lee reads this i could use a free extra handle that would be great incase i happen to lose it like every thing eles i loose
now for the pics!






Link Posted: 10/27/2003 7:04:10 PM EDT
Hmm...is it possible to lose the firing pin retaining pin through the slit that was cut in the receiver? It's hard to tell in those pics.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 7:09:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: Hmm...is it possible to lose the firing pin retaining pin through the slit that was cut in the receiver? It's hard to tell in those pics.
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nope.the "slot" comes down about 1/2 way in the opening for the pin. its just a bad cam angle
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 4:30:04 AM EDT
btt for the day crew
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 5:52:31 AM EDT
Does the stock charging handle still work? Looks Like it would... BTW, looks pretty neat!
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 8:05:05 AM EDT
Okay, but...why? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:55:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 10:18:08 AM EDT
Some questions I have, can you answer them? Does that slot let extra amounts of dirt and sand and other crude in the action? Looks like there is nothing to keep it out (like the ejection port cover)? Does the charging handle snag on clothing or other things when shooting in CQB? Does a noticable amount of gas come through that slot in the reciever?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 10:50:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 10:51:28 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 10:55:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MadProfessor: Some questions I have, can you answer them? Does that slot let extra amounts of dirt and sand and other crude in the action? Looks like there is nothing to keep it out (like the ejection port cover)? Does the charging handle snag on clothing or other things when shooting in CQB? Does a noticable amount of gas come through that slot in the reciever?
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I recently won an AR that came with the Left Side Bolt Handle, and I love it. Perhaps I can answer your questions. 1) I guess that might be a problem, but I haven't had any trouble with it 2)I have never been in CQB, but it didn't seem to snag on a heavy jacket with lots of pockets. 3)I haven't noticed any gas coming through the hole. Hope that helps!
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 11:09:22 AM EDT
Why not just go with one of the non-reciprocating side charging handle uppers that are out there? That is anyone's but ASAs.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 11:14:22 AM EDT
I have also been in contact with Lee. I am thinking about getting a bolt & carrier set up from him. I was glad to see your post. I have a DPMS side charge upper. I need to figure if I am going to get the set up from them or Lee. I was hoping I could do a mod on the carrier myself.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 12:16:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Striker:
Originally Posted By eswanson: Okay, but...why? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
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Logical info from Stiker
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Okay. Makes sense. I just couldn't see why you'd want to mill a slot in your upper, but I guess there's good reasons, especially about getting leverage to clear jams. I've had some blown primers that have been a bitch to clear with the charging handle.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 12:37:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 12:43:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 12:47:39 PM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 4:32:27 PM EDT
Does that slot let extra amounts of dirt and sand and other crude in the action? Looks like there is nothing to keep it out (like the ejection port cover)? Does the charging handle snag on clothing or other things when shooting in CQB? Does a noticable amount of gas come through that slot in the reciever? not that i have seen and i did lay my weapon down in the dirt. i also was shooting it with my tac vest on and it didnt snag on any of the pockets no i didnt notice any extra gas comming out when shooting it
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:07:17 PM EDT
Recently on questions regarding the BO tac latch and the PRI-Gas Buster charging handle, many of the complaints regarding the Badger Ordnance tactical latch was that it stuck out too far and caused bruised ribs, as well as other things. That was one of the big reasons for the popularity of the PRI big latch, was that it did not stick out as far, bruise ribs, and damage the receiver. Now, this side charging handle is much more sturdy than the BO Tac latch, and sticks out even farther. Any input as to if this side handle is going to cause bruised ribs also?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:12:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 7:14:04 PM EDT by tattoo]
Originally Posted By Big-Bore: Recently on questions regarding the BO tac latch and the PRI-Gas Buster charging handle, many of the complaints regarding the Badger Ordnance tactical latch was that it stuck out too far and caused bruised ribs, as well as other things. That was one of the big reasons for the popularity of the PRI big latch, was that it did not stick out as far, bruise ribs, and damage the receiver. Now, this side charging handle is much more sturdy than the BO Tac latch, and sticks out even farther. Any input as to if this side handle is going to cause bruised ribs also?
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well if you smack it in to your rib hard yea it might but i dont see that as a problem. with the rifle slung in frount i didnt have a problem with it hitting me...but i do have a little "extra" padding up front[:D]
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:33:42 PM EDT
This seems like the perfect ergonomic mod to the new Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol... Hhmm...
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:51:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By spider: This seems like the perfect ergonomic mod to the new Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol... Hhmm...
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hhmmmm i dont know if lee can/will do carbon but it would be wotrh a email to ask him
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 8:38:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 8:47:35 PM EDT by Hadaway]
Thanks for the reviews guys. Here's the pitch for the left side bolt handle - 1 - You are able to keep the muzzle on target ang your right hand in shooting position while clearing a malfunction. 2 - It can be used a foreward assist. 3 - You can perform a press check (make sure a round is in the chamber) while your right hand is in shooting position. 4 - If your left arm becomes injured, you can clear a malfunction by hooking the bolt handle on your belt and pushing the rifle down and away. 5 - If the bolt becomes stuck, you can use your foot on the bolt handle to clear it. 6 - There is a certain type of malfunction that occurs with ARs that will completely put the firearm out of action. That's when the base of the fired case stays in the bolt face and the mouth of the fired case gets behind the front of the charging handle. When this occurs, if you pull back on the charging handle, you will wedge the bolt carrier so that the rifle will have to disassembled to clear the malfunction. If you have the left side bolt handle, strip the mag and pull the bolt handle to the rear. The case will fall out the mag well and you're back in the fight. 7 - You can use the bolt handle to open beer bottles. (Tequila Bob's favorite) 8 - You don't have to be on a SWAT team to reap the benefits. If you shoot 3 gun matches, it will save precious seconds clearing a stovepipe. Just roll the rifle to the right while pulling the bolt handle rearward. 9 - Easier to operate the bolt with a low mount scope. 10 - Even though I designed it for right handed shooters, left handed folks seem to take to the idea faster. Dust and debris is not an issue. The bolt carrier does a good job of covering the slot. In all my testing, I've never had it hang on clothing or slings. A shorter handle is available if that is a concern. Striker is partially right. It has been approved for duty use by Denver PD, but Denver is broke so they won't spend the money to retrofit the Depts ARs. I showed the bolt handle at the National Tactical Officers Association Conference in Denver about a month before Gunstock. It was very well received. The Carbon Fiber guns should not be a problem. I have a AR Carbon Fiber Pistol upper here that I am installing one on. Plus, I just finished installing one on a Kel-Tec SU16. Turned out pretty neat. The cost for installation is $150 + $15 shipping. All I need is the upper, bolt assembly and bolt stop. Turnaround is 3 days. Usually less, but I need a little breathing room. I am also set up to do AR10s. Hell, if nothing else - most folks spend a whole lot more money on stuff that is not 1/4 as useful. Thanks for the thread. Lee Hadaway [url]www.thearmsroom.com[/url]
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 8:51:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 8:54:25 PM EDT by tattoo]
hey lee thanks for chiming in. BTW what would a eatra bolt handle cost just incase? thanks for the great work ray
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:08:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tattoo: ... lee suggests to use blue lock tight after cleaning it ...[/url]
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Am I correct in assuming you have to break the Lock-tite seal when disassembling your AR and in reapplying the Lock-tite after reassembling it?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:39:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By spider: This seems like the perfect ergonomic mod to the new Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol... Hhmm...
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Cutting through fibers in a load bearing composite structure is bad juju. BAD things [i]will[/i] happen.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:40:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 9:42:33 PM EDT by Hadaway]
That's why I recommend BLUE Locktite. It's no problem to break loose. The bolt carrier on my personal AR is hard as hell, so I've never used Locktite, I just cinch the screw down hard and don't worry about it. Some bolt carriers are fairly soft and could have the threads stripped by overtightening the 1/4 x 28 allen screw that holds the bolt handle in place. The easiest way to prevent this is to recommend snug pressure when tightening and using Blue Locktite. Thanks, Lee
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:50:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 9:52:44 PM EDT by Hadaway]
Originally Posted By Suburban:
Originally Posted By spider: This seems like the perfect ergonomic mod to the new Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol... Hhmm...
View Quote
Cutting through fibers in a load bearing composite structure is bad juju. BAD things [i]will[/i] happen.
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I agree, but I don't think that a carbon fiber receiver qualifies as a "load bearing structure". The load bearing part is the bolt and carrier. The upper receiver is a "raceway" that guides the bolt carrier. Plus, the upper receiver has rails inside it that the bolt carrier rides on. I am very careful to stay away from the rails. I also make sure the bolt handle does not touch or come in contact with the edges of the slot, especially the front and rear. Talk about bad juju. There'd be juju all over the place if that happened. Thanks, Lee
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 10:29:26 PM EDT
I'm sort of a "traditionalist" when it comes to my rifle, and when I first opened this thread, I was sure I'd hate the idea. Having said that, I have to admit I kinda like it, and I'm marking this thread, in case I ever get $165 to spare.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 7:32:12 AM EDT
We at TMTA, Inc. met Lee about 3 years ago now and he is the only guy who works on our guns, period!!! Personally, I was there when the Left side bolt handle was born, and I think I got the first one. That said, let me address some of the concerns you guys have raised. Since we teach Weapons CQB, Tactical teams, SNAGGING ON EQUIPMENT: I too was concerned of the bolt handle snagging on equipment, vest etc... Over the past couple years we have never had a problem, Not Once!!! Lee even offered to swap it out for the shorter one and I decided that the first time it snags on something I'd call him to get the shorter one. It's never happened. COMING LOOSE: Yup it did come loose the second time I used my Colt A3. I say Second time because I cleaned it after the first time. And YUP I forgot to put the Blue Locktite on, like I was told to!!! So that one was our fault!!! DIRT: How many of you close the dirt cover like your suppose to. We do before and after shooting but not during the day. Because of Lee's design the top edge of the milled slot is rounded and this tends to keep dirt, sand, etc. out of the bolt. If your right handed the left side will be next to the body, thus helping keep "blowing dirt" from getting in there where it should not be. Personally this has never been an issue and we train in a lot of different environments. SEE IT WHILE SHOOTING: Nope can't see it, I'd guess it's kinda like "Do you see the slide move on your handgun" when your shooting??? I guess you could it you were looking for it. Again, never been a problem. The advantages of having a left side bolt handle greatly out weight not having it. "It's one of those things that should have been designed into the gun in the first place". Being able to keep the weapon on target while clearing a jam, doing a press check, seating a round that did not fully chamber and on and on, are things that are very important to us in the tactical community. This bolt conversion is so good that we have adjusted our training techniques with the M4 to incorporate this new device. Let me say that I have looked for more than 20 years for a gunsmith with Lee's professionalism, attention to detail and ability to adapt new ideas. What makes Lee stand out above the rest is that he's not just a Master Gunsmith, he is also a Law Enforcement Instructor, so he understands the tactics, as well as, the proper function of the equipment. This is a rare combination and we feel very lucky to have found him. Also keep in mind Lee just doesn't work on AR variants. He knows all types of firearms so anything you need done, He's your new gunsmith!!! You should see the Springfield Operator he did for me, Oh My God!!! Finally, Lee will listen to you and work with you to solve any firearms related issue you may have. He's also a friendly person and I've spent many hours just bouncing ideas off him. He has a "Can Do & Adapt & Over come" attitude that is refreshing to see in a gunsmith. Brad Trelstad Director TMTA, Inc. www.Target-Masters.com
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 7:46:57 AM EDT
Can the new bolt handle make contact with the bare aluminum exposed after milling the new slot? I would be concerned about metal to metal contact with the exposed non-hard coat anodized aluminum.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 8:35:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 2:55:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander: Can the new bolt handle make contact with the bare aluminum exposed after milling the new slot? I would be concerned about metal to metal contact with the exposed non-hard coat anodized aluminum.
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The slot is machined with .020 clearance on the sides, .030 in the front and about 1/2" at the rear. The bolt handle never comes in contact with the receiver. Thanks, Lee
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 3:43:43 PM EDT
does this new handle becomes the bolt release? as i do not see a bolt release in any of the pics. Stainless
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 8:21:15 PM EDT
The bolt release/lock is still there and functional. I just cut the button off of the bolt lock. The button would have to be shortened slightly in order for the bolt handle to clear it. I found it was better to remove the button all together to remove any temptation someone may have to engage it with their thumb. Removing the button keeps your thumb from being slammed by the bolt handle when you release the bolt. Now, to release the bolt, insert a loaded magazine, pull the bolt handle slightly to the rear and release. Thanks, Lee
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:30:10 PM EDT
hmmmmmmm...
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 3:07:45 AM EDT
I have have shot my son's rifle with this feature, and it works perfect. BTW it looks like a factory job! This guys work is the best!!
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 4:24:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoldtopDude: This guys work is the best!!
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yes it is[:D]
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 7:59:51 AM EDT
I have thought about this idea - but I think I'd prefer one with a folding NON-recipricating handle on the side (ala L1A1). Here is why: Shooting with a 3 point sling during tactical courses and an extended latch I constantly had issues with the latch catching on clothing and gear when 'slinging' the rifle. This latch looks about the same length or longer. The recipricating sling would do bad things to my chest if I ever had to shoot rollover prone (so you SWAT guys can forget the mod), or if I had to shoot SBU prone I'd be afraid of the handle hiting the ground (and causing a malfunction). This isn't an issue for 3-Gunners, Highpower shooters, or plinkers. But it an issue if you need to shoot under your cover (like vehicles).
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:16:24 AM EDT
This would be the perfect mod for non-forward assist uppers if it could be done to the right/ejection port side. You might not even have to eliminate the ejection port cover. This would be a great 3-Gun type upper.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 7:19:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander: This would be the perfect mod for non-forward assist uppers if it could be done to the right/ejection port side. You might not even have to eliminate the ejection port cover. This would be a great 3-Gun type upper.
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Good idea. I could notch out the dust cover enough for the bolt handle. I guess the spring would open the dust cover quick enough to clear the bolt handle .... CRAP! Now I have another idea running around in my head that I'm gonna have to try to figure out.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 12:32:39 AM EDT
Lee: Perhaps you're already aware of this, but Martin and Tillman’s “The Complete Guide to AR-15 Accuracy” has specs on their version of a right hand bolt (starting on page 254). Looks like the bolt slot needs to be quite a bit longer than the ejection port, so trying to salvage the dust cover might not really be worthwhile!
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 1:13:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hadaway: I agree, but I don't think that a carbon fiber receiver qualifies as a "load bearing structure". The load bearing part is the bolt and carrier.
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I've been thinking about this for a while. The upper receiver is part of the rifle's exoskeleton, so to speak. However, milling a slot probably wouldn't hurt too much since the front lug would most likely break with less stress than the side of the reciever.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 4:37:45 PM EDT
I think I might be thinking about this mod.....hmmmmm..... Marked for later.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 7:22:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 9:18:26 PM EDT
You would have to do away with the brass deflector. Off the top of my head, the length of travel for the bolt carrier / bolt handle is about 4". I initially thought about putting it on the right side, but the brass deflector stopped me. I still believe it is more user friendly for a right handed shooter to have it installed on the left side. If someone had a early AR or a upper with no brass deflector, it would be a breeze. I'm not sure how to make it look right with the brass deflector. I'd have to machine it off. If I didn't, you'd have a slot running through it and the bolt handle would have to be extended to clear the deflector.
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