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Posted: 10/27/2003 12:06:31 PM EDT
Let's assume you have to make a decision: fully fund XM-8 or product improve the M-16 family. Should you choose the latter, what would you do and why?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 12:10:09 PM EDT
improve it, flat-tops with 4 rail handguards, flip up sights and ACOG's standard issue
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 2:17:49 PM EDT
Product improve. New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator) More SPRs issued. Same stuff as above done to SPR where applicable.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 2:58:13 PM EDT
DevL, What is MK 262 ammo?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 3:02:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Product improve. New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator) More SPRs issued. Same stuff as above done to SPR where applicable.
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Ya what he said plus a new paint round and ability to shoot it so we can throw away the MILES gear. Also maybe the Diemaco carry handle (M249 style) so NCO's can bitch at "Joe" for not carrying his weapon at the ready and "Joe" can be pissed for seeing SF guys doing it. Of course to go with the Magpul Stock you need a new Otis cleaning kit that will fit in the storage area, when they come out with it. Also speaking as a former ARMY Armorer everything that has the ability to be taken on and off ie.. grip, ACOG, BUS, IR laser ect... needs to have a "loop" so the item can be tied down (noy just to the mount but to the item). This will stop "Joe" from losing stuff and driving the Armorer nuts trying to count all that crap at 0300 when everyone wants to go home and theres one dick who decided that just because his IR quit working that he would put it in his buttpack and now he can't find it. Sorry had to bitch, it used to drive me nuts that the ARMY would buy all this crap but wouldn't take the time to make sure there was a way to tie it down before the bought/ordered it. Also the military needs new weapons racks because the modified M16A2 racks that now fit M4's don't fit very well if at all with all that crap on it. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 3:07:34 PM EDT
DevL -- that's the kind of input I'm looking for. Keep it up, folks. How about an ambi saftey and ambi mag release? What about advances in durable, corrosion and scratch-resistant finishes? How about a new stainless barrel technology optimized for auto fire and in a polygonal bore? What about about switching over the gas system to incorporate a gas trap? How about 6.8mm? What about chromed bolts and carriers?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 5:11:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2003 5:13:03 PM EDT by DevL]
6.8mm would be SOPMOD bloc 3 The new bolt and cariers will have new finishes. New exernal coatings would be good but hard chrome still needs to be in the bore as its more corrosion resistant and longer lasting than stainless. If a polygonal bore had higher velocities Id be all for it. MK 262 Mod 1 ammo is the 77 grain Nosler 5.56mm round being issued to special forces.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 5:29:13 PM EDT
Other than a improved magazine and the current work being done on plating all reciprocating parts in order to get rid of most need for lubricant, there is not allot really necessary.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 6:01:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2003 6:05:21 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By glockdog:
Originally Posted By DevL: Product improve. New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator) More SPRs issued. Same stuff as above done to SPR where applicable.
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Ya what he said plus a new paint round and ability to shoot it so we can throw away the MILES gear. Also maybe the Diemaco carry handle (M249 style) so NCO's can bitch at "Joe" for not carrying his weapon at the ready and "Joe" can be pissed for seeing SF guys doing it. Of course to go with the Magpul Stock you need a new Otis cleaning kit that will fit in the storage area, when they come out with it. [b][size=3]Also speaking as a former ARMY Armorer everything that has the ability to be taken on and off ie.. grip, ACOG, BUS, IR laser ect... needs to have a "loop" so the item can be tied down (not just to the mount but to the item).[/b][/size=3] This will stop "Joe" from losing stuff and driving the Armorer nuts trying to count all that crap at 0300 when everyone wants to go home and theres one dick who decided that just because his IR quit working that he would put it in his buttpack and now he can't find it. Sorry had to bitch, it used to drive me nuts that the ARMY would buy all this crap but wouldn't take the time to make sure there was a way to tie it down before the bought/ordered it. Also the military needs new weapons racks because the modified M16A2 racks that now fit M4's don't fit very well if at all with all that crap on it. Glockdog Airborne!!
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The phrase I've highlighted above may well be the smartest idea posted !! ---------------------------------------------- We need ONE scope to handle both day and night. Keep the 5.56 rifles but add some 7.62 also. There just is no "one size fits all" and no single caliber is good for all situations.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 6:56:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2003 7:00:07 PM EDT by Knife_Sniper]
[b]THE SUPER MAG WITH GASKET[/b] I think we should make magazines with a rubber "gasket" that sits flush with the magwell to keep all dirt and dust out completely. Of course the magazine would need to be made of composite materials, such as fiberglass reinforced plastic with METAL feed lips. (Dont they have those gaskets on thermolds?) [b]THE RECEIVER GASKET[/b] Also... make an gasket to fit in between the upper and lower that not only eliminates play, but creates a good seal to keep out dirt and dust. This is not only simple to install on all rifles, but cheap as well; a inner tube thick peice of rubber wont cost that much. Make one side of the gasket like a sticker so once fitted to the lower it wont come off unless you peel it off. If any manufacturers use the above idea, I demand a free Wilson Combat UT-15 and a Knights 20 inch model with RAS installed as payment for using the idea. I dont want to be rich, just happy weapon wise. You all are my witnesses, this is *my* idea. Of course the improved three hole bolt carrier with the special relieved bolt. [b]THE DUST COVER QUESTION[/b] could we improve the dust cover? Is their any possible way to make it auto flip back up after every shot without interupting the brass ejection? [b]THE BOLT WEIGHT[/b] (patent not pending) Take some weight out of the buffer and add it to a heavier carrier. Make an even lighter buffer made out of composite materials or a lighter metal. The transfer of weight should theoretically (in my own universe) make the rifle have less muzze rise. ------EEEEGGGG======] At ready ----------------EEEEGGGG=] Fire = (Spring) EEEE (carrier) GGGG (buffer) ] Buffer tube If weight is evenly distributed we have what we have now... If weight is pushed foreward to the carrier (EEEE) we should (in my own world) experience a tad less muzzle flip should we not? [b]The Every Rifle Should Be Cofigured As Follows:[/b] Supressor included with all military rifles (yea thats it) [b] The Upgrades that need to be done NOW damnit Section[/b] IE Misc... Upgrade to composite lower receviers. If you could make them clear that would kick more anus. Flat top upper (duh) New ambidextrous grip Tri-Power (hey man its the future!)[:p] A Spring insert to eliminate the dimples created by the free floated firing pin. A1 buttstock length must be brought back! Get rid of the fat windage adjustment nob. I dont think windage is much of a concern in combat, so it should stick out less to make the rifle more high speed low drag. Keep the elevation knob as it is of course, but set them up with the Santoze IBZ. Thats all I can think of.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 7:16:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator)
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DevL, Santa says that's a copy of the wishlist you sent him. He also said you're not getting it cause sometimes your mean to newbies. [;D]
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 8:09:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 8:51:58 PM EDT
A cleaner gas system like that of the HK G36.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 9:02:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Product improve. New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator) More SPRs issued. Same stuff as above done to SPR where applicable.
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The good news is that even mere mortal civvies like me can have most of this stuff too [:D]
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 9:27:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2003 9:28:40 PM EDT by DevL]
Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
Originally Posted By DevL: New Enhanced Bolt/Carrier Magpul M93 Stock KAC URX Tango Down grip Trijicon Variable 1-4X BAC ACOG in 19S mount ARMS 40 rear HK improved magazine MK 262 ammo standard issue Surefire LED based light Micro sized IR laser/illumintor QD reflex suppressor that has a flash hider/muzzlebreak/compensator mount No more notch in the M4 barrel HK 40mm grenade launcher that still lets the barrel FF Electronic grenade sight that computes the needed elevation after determining range ala the FN2000 with iron back ups (possibly integrated with IR laser/illuminator)
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DevL, Santa says that's a copy of the wishlist you sent him. He also said you're not getting it cause sometimes your mean to newbies. [;D]
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Tell Santa he can kiss my... I mean... tell Santa I will be nice to newbies while your visiting him in the arctic circle. [;)] I do actually type pages of info in Emails and IMs to the newbies who ask me stuff if I can help em. I am only a smartass when someone is a dumbass. [:p]
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:01:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I do actually type pages of info in Emails and IMs to the newbies who ask me stuff if I can help em. I am only a smartass when someone is a dumbass. [:p]
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Sorry, not to hijack the thread. Was just joking of course. I am/was one of those dumbasses, but less and less with every one of DevL's replies to my IM's...thanks DevL! [:D] Getting back to the thread, sort of, looking at your list - most all that stuff is already in the pipeline, right? That's great cause it's actually going to happen: woo-hoo!! What's left that isn't included in the SOPMOD track?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 7:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 7:20:26 PM EDT by DevL]
The suppressor The electronic grenade sight (for the HK launcher) 9V Surefire LED light 1-4X Trijicon Scope None of these have been made for the AR yet. There are QD reflex suppressors and KAC has a brake/compensator/flash hider/suppressor mount coming up but noone has combined the two. The ITI XM8 experimental optic combines a red dot/IR lasr/IR illuminator and back up irons into something the size and weight of an Aimpoint. That cuts a ton of space and weight. Now they just need to start working on a SOPMOD 3 optic thats NV/FLIR/Video 1-8X with built in IR laser/IR Illuminator/IR laser range finder/electronic grenade sight that is under a pound. [;)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:08:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TX65: 1. Increase the magazine OAL capacity to 2.500" .... 3. As mentioned, put in place an ambi selector,bolt and mag release.
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Great ideas, but I take issue with #2:
2. Engineer a new magazine design that is similar to a Glock with a double stack transitioning to feed from a center single stack. Not only would this result in more reliable feeding, it would also reduce the opening for dirt to get in the magazine.
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The simplest magazine is the single-position, single-column of the 1911-style pistols. Next up is the double-position, double-column of the AR, and third is the single-position, double-column common in auto pistols. I don't think adding the careful shuffling of rounds from double stack to single stack would be *more* reliable.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:52:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 10:20:23 AM EDT
If you are going to have a dozen dohickies hanging off the weapon as Devl suggests, come up with a way to prevent all that stuff with hanging up on the surrounding environment! Maybe some "streamline" hanguards that have a place you can shove a flashlight, lasersight, etc. into with a blank out cover. You could even use the unused "pods" to store extra cleaning gear, etc.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 2:18:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mach6: Let's assume you have to make a decision: fully fund XM-8 or product improve the M-16 family. Should you choose the latter, what would you do and why?
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Well, there is only one improvement that you need to make as far as I can see and I have done it and it works and eliminates almost all of the feed and jamming problems that I have had. Open up the gas flow coming back to the bolt carrier and beef up the buffer spring. Reason with the extra gas blowing back you have the extra force needed to cycle the action if you get sand dirt or mud in it. The extra strength in the buffer spring then lessens the felt recoil and provides enough forward force again to slam past anything that is in the way of the bolt carrier. I have done it and tested it and it made the difference between night and day. Especially in the 11.5 to 16" barreled uppers. Improvise, adapt and overcome. If this is what you have to work with, then make it work.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 3:23:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gijohnny223:
Originally Posted By mach6: Let's assume you have to make a decision: fully fund XM-8 or product improve the M-16 family. Should you choose the latter, what would you do and why?
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Well, there is only one improvement that you need to make as far as I can see and I have done it and it works and eliminates almost all of the feed and jamming problems that I have had. Open up the gas flow coming back to the bolt carrier and beef up the buffer spring. Reason with the extra gas blowing back you have the extra force needed to cycle the action if you get sand dirt or mud in it. The extra strength in the buffer spring then lessens the felt recoil and provides enough forward force again to slam past anything that is in the way of the bolt carrier. I have done it and tested it and it made the difference between night and day. Especially in the 11.5 to 16" barreled uppers. Improvise, adapt and overcome. If this is what you have to work with, then make it work.
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This would cause the extractr to rip right through the rim of the brass. Its a common problem on rifles with gas ports too large.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 6:06:59 PM EDT
I'm convinced the LMT enhanced bolt carrier group can take care of any systematic problems with that piece of the weapon. Now and in the future.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 5:41:06 PM EDT
Phased-plasma rifle in the forty watt range...
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 6:28:56 PM EDT
Immediately go to an 18" barrel.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 6:48:36 PM EDT
hmm, so HOW exactly does the LMT bolt group make the 20"ers less prone to malfunction??? I thought they only helped carbines with extraction.. I clean mine after every few hundred rounds fired and have never had any malfuntions... but better is better : ) LittleJacek
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 7:40:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2003 7:41:25 PM EDT by Jasba]
1. Get rid of the "dirty" gas system. Give it a piston style system to make it easier to clean, and more reliable. Think SKS. 2. 18" Barrel standard 3. Upgrade the ammo. Come up with something that offers better stopping power with same penetration ability. 4. Make the exact same model available to civilians to increase sales/thus lowering overall cost to Uncle Sam.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 7:57:24 PM EDT
how about taking the soldiers out and actually having them shoot and practice and qualify with thier weapon. I have talked to grunts who went through thier entire hitch shooting only the 25yd qualification with 22lr kits installed.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 9:54:38 PM EDT
I would like to see a 4 position selector switch. Safe-Semi-Burst-Auto. Not good for ammo consumption, but may be handy in the tight urban combat situations we're finding our troops in these days.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 11:39:39 PM EDT
The m16/m4 family is fine. Develop caseless or some other technology. Night vision and posibily thermal sights would be nice though.
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