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Posted: 10/23/2003 5:01:29 PM EDT
I saw a lower that's equipped with a trigger group or modification I'm not familiar with. The hammer falls when the trigger is pulled, then locks back normally. When the trigger is released the hammer drops again, then locks back. In other words, it fires once when the trigger is pulled, then once again when it's released.

It was explained to me that this is a legal modification, due to it taking a seperate manipulation of the trigger for each round to be fired.

I didn't get a chance to examine the internals, so I don't know if this is a modified trigger group or some sort of manufacured trigger pack that was installed. Is anyone familiar with such a setup or kow the legalities?
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 5:26:43 PM EDT
Sounds familiar. Their used to be a company called Tac Trigger{?} back in the 80's. Its sounds like something they put out. Its not the same company that puts out that cheap simulated F/A separate trigger thing. Find out more if you can. Sounds interesting.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 5:30:27 PM EDT
Of all the stupid things that can be done to a semi auto, this is the dumbest. Just when you think you've heard it all something like this comes along. If it happened accidentally because some fool was doing some amateur "gunsmithing" it would be one thing, but the fact that someone would do it deliberately leaves me speechless.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 5:42:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2003 5:44:02 PM EDT by SBR7_11]
UHHHH- the rifle is doubling. Recognize the complaint as asked here periodically?? The disconnector is not timed correctly to allow the trade from disconnector shelf to primary sear when trigger released........... More than one round fire with 1 complete trigger cycle = machine gun. IBTL
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 5:49:32 PM EDT
A weapon that fires more than one round per pull and release of the trigger is classified as a machine gun. There are devices that can be attached which simulate full auto fire, but they only allow the trigger to be pulled at a more rapid rate. A similar effect can be produced by bump firing.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 5:51:19 PM EDT
Why? That is what I keep asking myself about this. I can see some possible advantages, but I can see so many disastrous life threatening malfunctions from this type of set up.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 7:06:09 PM EDT
I have always wanted to see a dual direction trigger. Pull it to the rear, bang; push it forward, bang. Instead of a conventional grooved trigger, it would have a circle and your index finger would go into it. Would be very fast for double-taps with a pistol.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 8:58:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2003 9:01:26 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
That could be a dangerous trigger. Pull it once and miss (luckily) but suddenly finding out [i]"Oh shit, this is a no fire situation!"[/i], then release the trigger due to habit....BANG! Kill an innocent....they're fucked (and so are you). Yes I 'd love to have a full auto w/o government glove up the ass restrictions, but the trigger you're talking about is someones dumb idea. Run away!
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 9:10:39 PM EDT
that things not anywhere near me and I'm scared of it
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 2:01:35 AM EDT
A guy was selling these a few years back on rec.guns.net and he had a letter of ATF approval since it fired once per MANIPULATION of the trigger. Pull is a single manipulation and release is another manipulation. He was also warned by the ATF his trigger was legal in the test sample he sent, but it could be illegal in anohter poorly fit reciever. I wish a company would make a trigger that was semi auto and when you install a full auto selector and flipped to the full auto position it would do the double trigger thing. That would be the shiznit.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 4:04:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Txsguy: I saw a lower that's equipped with a trigger group or modification I'm not familiar with. The hammer falls when the trigger is pulled, then locks back normally. When the trigger is released the hammer drops again, then locks back. In other words, it fires once when the trigger is pulled, then once again when it's released. It was explained to me that this is a legal modification, due to it taking a seperate manipulation of the trigger for each round to be fired. I didn't get a chance to examine the internals, so I don't know if this is a modified trigger group or some sort of manufacured trigger pack that was installed. Is anyone familiar with such a setup or kow the legalities?
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Dude I hate to burst your bubble here, but this is a condition known as doubling, and it indicates a problem with the weapon. The AR family is NOT supposed to work like this and should NEVER be INTENTIONALLY FIRED like this. If your weapon starts to double, you stop firing and get it to an armorer ASAP. This is technically legal in the same sense that a stuck firing pin is legal: The weapon is BUSTED and not working properly. (A stuck firing pin can sometimes cause the weapon to fire every time the bolt closes...) Don't EVER try to get your weapon to do this, OK? It is dangerous and irresponsible to have the weapon fire on trigger release. And remember that in the future anyone who tells you about something like this without telling you the weapon is broken should be ignored...
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 6:30:07 AM EDT
As I stated in my original post, I saw this lower and the owner said it had been purposely modified to fire in this manner. This rifle is not just doubling due to a defect. If it makes any difference, this was an old preban lower. The selector lever had the normal safe mode, but the semi position put it into double fire mode. The lever would rotate through to what would normally be the FA position, but it was in fact putting the rifle in the safe mode again. No actual semiauto fire was possible. I'm not saying any of this is a safe idea, a practical defensive weapon configuration or something I'd want to have. This guy had it out at a local range and demonstrated how it functioned, but I declined to fire it. It just got my curiousity up on whether this modification was in fact legal and whether it had ever been offered commercially or was just a kitchen table butcher job.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 11:38:18 AM EDT
I guess noone read my post.... About the ATF letter of approval and the fact the guy designed that trigger set and sold them... So everyone but me on this thread is wrong. It was not a malfunctioning rifle.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 11:56:12 AM EDT
DevL i am with you on this it is legal and there are ways to modify for that reason....No biggie some guy like to double or roll back and forth for FA fire.. Big farking deal! SOme of these guys think its a shame to waste cheap ammo and have blasting away.. Shit! Shooting is fun especial when you can sim FA fire! Give this guy a freaking break!
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 3:25:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I guess noone read my post.... About the ATF letter of approval and the fact the guy designed that trigger set and sold them... So everyone but me on this thread is wrong. It was not a malfunctioning rifle.
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I wasn't wrong either....and you didnt read my answer I guess.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 6:03:26 PM EDT
My SP2 was doing this... I had to replace all the parts... Pull the trigger BANG release the trigger BANG oh yea, fun... but BAD Happened again.. but it turned out to be a bad disconnector. Fun but BAD AR15 is not supposed to do this. but if you don't like your face... go ahead and risk a ka-boom.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 7:51:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DOA:
Originally Posted By DevL: I guess noone read my post.... About the ATF letter of approval and the fact the guy designed that trigger set and sold them... So everyone but me on this thread is wrong. It was not a malfunctioning rifle.
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I wasn't wrong either....and you didnt read my answer I guess.
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MY bad DOA. This was not a malfunctioning trigger to the rest of the guys... and the trigger did not let the weapon fire out of battery. No KB issues.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:23:59 PM EDT
Actually, the press-release fire trigger is a common modifications in shotgun (over-under, side by side, and semi-auto), setup for skeet, and as I understood, it is legal, since it is two separate manuplation of the trigger. A few years ago (back in the days when they were debating Federal AW ban), I was working on a design of a mechanism, using the selector to pick between normal fire, and press-release fire. Dropped the idea because although it is fun, there are no practical or tactical reason to have such a trigger, and too much liability. Besides, the Class 3 manufacturer that I was partner with agree it is legal, but have concern that the ATF might not be happy if such trigger devices. Here is my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 9:05:34 PM EDT
If you make the trigger I will buy it. It was OK with the ATF as they tested one.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 10:38:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I wish a company would make a trigger that was semi auto and when you install a full auto selector and flipped to the full auto position it would do the double trigger thing. That would be the shiznit.
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If that was safe and legal, that would totaly be off the hizle.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 5:40:19 PM EDT
AR15 is not supposed to do this. but if you don't like your face... go ahead and risk a ka-boom. END This is a dangerious situation but not because it can cause the gun to fire out of battery. The AR15 can not due to its design fire out of battery. Pat
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