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Posted: 10/16/2003 11:17:29 AM EDT
[#1]
The difference to me is that Bushmaster has QC checks, which, for example, ensured that none of the too-wide flattop rails shipped out.
RRA shipped them out, and then came up with a totally bogus excuse for doing so. Only under tremendous pressure from folks from this board and other industry folks did they admit that they were FOS, and that their rails were out of spec. Anyone can make a mistake; how you deal with that mistake is what matters to me. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/16/2003 11:20:11 AM EDT
[#2]
I've heard the same thing about the collapsible stocks; one or two companies make 'em and then the big boys slap their name on them. A supplier reported to me that there is no difference, for example, between the 4 pos stocks going for $20 on Ebay and the $100 ones that Bushmaster sells.
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Posted: 10/16/2003 5:17:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: I've heard the same thing about the collapsible stocks; one or two companies make 'em and then the big boys slap their name on them. A supplier reported to me that there is no difference, for example, between the 4 pos stocks going for $20 on Ebay and the $100 ones that Bushmaster sells. That I won't buy. Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS, and a couple of other of the bigger boys are selling the same pieces, except for ID markings, and in those cases, you can use price as a factor. It's just that the least expensive (which I think is Rock River right now) is still going to set you back $65-$70. The $20 jobbies, which are conveniently not brand name listed, are always non current M4 style, bave really sleazy tubes, and the buffers are invariably filled w/lead shot, not steel discs interspersed w/rubber siscs; that is, when they even come w/a buffer and spring. That's why they're being peddled on e bay and not on our EE site.[:D] |
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Posted: 10/16/2003 6:35:21 PM EDT
[#4]
I have bought Bushmaster and RRA uppers recently, and the finish at least is nicer on the Bushmasters. Not $70 nicer though.
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Posted: 10/16/2003 6:49:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: After discovering Continental Machine and Tool makes upper recievers (to 100% completion)... How did you discover this? Care to cite any sources? |
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Posted: 10/16/2003 7:32:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Im not sure of the name but there was another thread about a guy who bought an upper and lower from continental at a gun show for $65 a piece because he had a connection there and claimed they made uppers and lowers currently for bushmaster and bushmaster answered back and said continental in times of peak demand at bushmaster has made uppers for them to their specs but they have never made lowers for them.
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Posted: 10/16/2003 8:13:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Which begs the question....Who DOES make Bushmaster's lower receivers...?
I would not mind at all having CMT make my lower, they do very good work. If Bushmaster does not make their own lowers (and their rep did not state this) who makes them. Obviously the quality is good, but it is nice to know where the parts come from. It's kind of like Sears putting the "Kenmore" badge on their whirlpool washers and dryers. All good stuff, but not really what it appears to be. I suppose if it allows them to make more profit via the brand name marketing, why not? |
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Posted: 10/16/2003 8:23:41 PM EDT
[#8]
I also read that earlier post and sent an email to CMT. I have not gotten a reply back but when I do I will post here to show you all the responce I got on them selling product with their name on it.
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Posted: 10/16/2003 8:56:42 PM EDT
[#9]
I just happened upon this at olyarms.com. I was checking a friends lower for its preban status. Looks like Olympic made a sizeable number of lowers for Bushmaster.
[Quote:from olyarms.com] cheV0001 V0716 12/02/1986 10/01/1987 These receivers were manufactured for Bushmaster. While all of these are for BM, there were more. |
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Posted: 10/17/2003 7:17:59 AM EDT
[#10]
[url=continentalmachinetool.com]Continental Machine Tool[/url]
[img]continentalmachinetool.com/images/sections/firearms.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 10/17/2003 10:03:38 AM EDT
[#11]
I recently bought a CMT lower at a show. I was able to go to a few tables and compare by sight only the CMT with some of the other name brands. While that is not a good comparison, it sure looks good. Price was significantly lower too.
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Posted: 10/17/2003 10:31:38 AM EDT
[#12]
I would like to see an overhead view looking inside a CMT lower if anyone can provide one. It would give a clue as to whether or not it is at least milled to the same specs as RRA or Bushmaster.
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Posted: 10/17/2003 3:54:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: I just happened upon this at olyarms.com. I was checking a friends lower for its preban status. Looks like Olympic made a sizeable number of lowers for Bushmaster. [Quote:from olyarms.com] cheV0001 V0716 12/02/1986 10/01/1987 These receivers were manufactured for Bushmaster. While all of these are for BM, there were more. This was the period before BM manufactured their own lowers. Prior to that, they were a parts company (Quality Parts, Co.), and built complete guns on other brands of lowers. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/17/2003 4:13:09 PM EDT
[#14]
I purchased a Model 1 Sales A3 upper, and I'll admit it looks good, and compared to the Colt A3 M4 marked upper I had the finnish and machine work looked identical. But when it came to rail specs, the Model 1 failed. I had to hit it with a file to get my #38 Swan sleeve to slide on.
It fuctions perfect, other than the fact that the rail was out of spec. But if ya want quality and ZERO headaches in the future, pay the price. |
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Posted: 10/17/2003 6:02:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Which begs the question....Who DOES make Bushmaster's lower receivers...? Quoted: This was the period before BM manufactured their own lowers. Prior to that, they were a parts company (Quality Parts, Co.), and built complete guns on other brands of lowers. -Troy Based on what Troy said it sounds like Bushmaster makes their own lowers. My next guess would be since they are setup to machine lowers then it would make sense that they machine their own uppers too. Right Troy? |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 6:20:57 AM EDT
[#16]
So, Bushmaster manufacturers their rifles completely in house?
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Posted: 10/19/2003 10:15:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Surprise, surprise....If you guys think that all the different "manufactures" out their actually machine their OWN parts in house, then I have a bridge for sale at an incredibly low price!
I found this out many years ago while building Model 1911 handguns. Out of all the different M1911 "manufactures” only a very few actually machine their own parts in house. Les Baer and Ed Brown do in fact machine most (but not all) of their own parts in house. At the time Ed Brown did admit they were using Baer Frames and Slides. Wilson Combat for example does not machine one single part in house! Wilson gets every part they sell from an independent supplier. From what I found out, Wilsons QC standards are in fact higher then many others as to what they will accept and their for put their name on (probably what Bushmaster and other high name manufactures do as well). It's also why you see AR-15 carriers with different machining attributes on their under sides even though these carriers come from the same "manufacturer" (One supplier was out of stock so they simply used another). Agreements are made between the suppliers and "manufactures" when it comes to keeping TIGHT LIPS so to say. Most manufactures will swear up and down that they manufacture (machine) ALL their own parts in house, when in fact they do not. I can imagine the AR-15 industry is much the same. |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 11:26:38 AM EDT
[#18]
Why that's a surprise to anyone, I don't know. Very very few companies make every component of their product, because doing so is horribly inefficient. Bushmaster sells around 70,000 AR lowers a year, but it's STILL more efficient to out-source the lower machining to a company that does nothing but machine work, and can therefore afford the ultra-high-end computer-controlled mills that can make each lower exactly like the one before it.
What *matters* is the QA checks along the way. Does it matter if the lower was machined by Continental or Lewis, or filed on by hand by an old man in Afghanistan, as long as it meets specs exactly? Not really. As long as a company is ensuring those parts are held to the required tolerances and specs, then where it was machined is irrelevant. Oly is known for machining much of their products in-house, yet back when they machined their own lowers, they were well-known for making out-of-spec lowers. That's because a $10,000,000 CNC machine will give you much better consistancy than a $50,000 Bridgeport and a guy. That's why we have the computers do it. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:51:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Here's a scan of 2 recently purchased CMT lowers...
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/pe3e52a5c0a44105c74f53512154a89a4/fac86c3d.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 2:42:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Is it just me or are the walls of the recievers two different widths?
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Posted: 10/19/2003 2:54:35 PM EDT
[#21]
It's just you, and the fact that the receivers are sitting a bit askew on the scanner bed...they measure exactly the same.
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Posted: 10/19/2003 3:19:25 PM EDT
[#22]
They dont have the same internal specs as my Bushmaster, as one of my walls juts out just a tad in one section but they look very nice. I will be getting one of these as my next lower and upper. [:)]
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Posted: 10/22/2003 9:07:28 AM EDT
[#23]
a les baer upper with forward assist is $108. it may be the only value on the les baer website. everything else is more expensive than the big 3. i almost ordered one today.
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Posted: 10/22/2003 9:37:40 AM EDT
[#24]
Who makes the Les Baer upper?
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Posted: 10/22/2003 11:38:37 AM EDT
[#25]
Where can I get a CMT lower and upper?
Thanks |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 12:24:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Where can I get a CMT lower and upper? Give Hoffman's gun center of Newington, Ct a call. They have CMT stripped A2 uppers & lowers in stock, for $150 a set... 860-666-8827 |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 3:58:58 PM EDT
[#27]
I got my CMT lower from Numrich Gun Parts in ShotGun news Mag. Love it. A set for 169.95 plus your ffl dealers charge. Lower for 99.95.
Also Wholesale Gun has lowers for 88.99. They say made by the folks that make them for Colt. Numrich says made by same company thats makes them for Colt and FN. |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 4:37:38 PM EDT
[#28]
les baer may make his own receivers. i didn't ask who made them, but he said they were machined to very tight specs. the baers i've handled were CRAZY precise. almost didn't seem like an AR.
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Posted: 10/22/2003 5:13:18 PM EDT
[#29]
I would bet Baer machines his own as I know for a fact he machines all his Model 1911 parts in house.
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Posted: 10/22/2003 5:29:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Is the front hole for the pivot pin bevelled away toward the bottom on each side or left intact/whole on the CMT upper?
edited to clarify: Not the actual hole but the lower portion of the loop..........er something like that! |
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Posted: 10/30/2003 10:49:25 PM EDT
[#31]
I know this is late, but I just read the message. I just checked my CMT lower and the metal around the hole is flat with the sides of the lower. My Colt pre-ban is made the same way.
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