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Posted: 8/16/2003 8:49:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 8:55:02 PM EDT by Hokie]
Are A2 uppers still practical and tactical? Or is the A3 platform just too versatile to pass up? Optics on a carry handle useful? Or does the cheek weld make ya want an A3? Does the A2 just feel good and A3's don't have that "AR" vibe?

What's the difference? I've got two A3's and now I want an A2...maybe, my driving motion for an A2 is currently...just cause I want an iron sight setup. But if I want an ACOG set up down the road after I sell my left nut, I'm probably gonna wish I had an A3.

Not too big a fan of removable carry handles. Don't know why...just me I guess. Hate those knobs on the side.

Core question...What's your opinion on upper recievers?
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 11:01:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 11:02:23 PM EDT by G35]
Be a real man soldier !!!! Get an A-1 upper. I recently switched out the factory (Bushmaster) A-3 upper reciever with a Bushmaster A-1 upper reciever. The "retro" 20" AR is now my favorite. BTW, I strongly favor iron-sights. Use the XS Sight same-plane large rear apeture on the A-1 upper.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:02:32 AM EDT
I would say, go A1 or A3. An A1 is simpler and there is less to go wrong. If the smaller aperture bothers you, change it out for an A2 or an XS same plane unit. Otherwise, go with the flattop for versatility. The A2 is good for CMP, or just target shooting with irons, but for serious work, the A1 and the flattop are what work best.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:35:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 12:45:28 AM EDT by Boomholzer]
I was in the same boat. Late to the ar game but with my Pop's SP-1 experience behind me, I bought a 16" flat-top M4 type. It was "wrong looking" to me and I had to also have a A2. To me at the time a flat-top was for 24" targets. Well now any A1 or A2 will never be anything but irons. I tried the colt 4x and red-dots, and tried the reflex. Did'nt work. I love the co-witness ability of the flat-top and in time adjusted to the new look of the upper rcvr. Hate to say it but I still love the look but not the feel. I rather shoot ARMS flip ups for irons. The removeable carry handle is useless to me, you can't even fit your fingers through that handle.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 1:25:38 AM EDT
Everyone says to go with the A1, because there is less to go wrong. How many people have broken an A2 sight in the field? When I was in the service I never saw one broken, and we used our equipment hard.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 2:31:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stickman: Everyone says to go with the A1, because there is less to go wrong. How many people have broken an A2 sight in the field? When I was in the service I never saw one broken, and we used our equipment hard.
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I don't feel the problem would be so much in breaking as the knobs might be knocked around and your zero changed. I have never seen it happen and if it does its an easy fix, but odd things do happen I guess. I guess some of us feel like why should it be more complicated than it has to be? Who's going to adjust for a 400 meter shot out in the field?
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 5:03:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By G35: Be a real man soldier !!!! Get an A-1 upper. I recently switched out the factory (Bushmaster) A-3 upper reciever with a Bushmaster A-1 upper reciever. The "retro" 20" AR is now my favorite. BTW, I strongly favor iron-sights. Use the XS Sight same-plane large rear apeture on the A-1 upper.
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A-1??? Are you guys nuts? I guess to each their own. I have one A2 and one A3. I would never ever swap an A2 for an A1 I love the sights on the A2 way too much. The A3 is absolutely wonderful. I can't run my mouth too much about the A1 though, it is the first AR I shot as a kid back in the day when nobody wanted AR's and they were selling them for like $400 new. Again to each their own, I'd go A3 for optics and A2 for irons. But I must admit if you are running an A1 platform, you are a real man. Oh and uh, a bolt action .22 chipmunk can be tactical in the right hands ;)
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:05:10 AM EDT
I have 4 ARs and they all have A-1 uppers. The A-2 front sight is way too thick, (it looks like a telephone pole in the way at 100yds), and the rear is too complex to operate in the field under stress. I also do not like the fact that your zero can be ruined by a quick twist of a knob. After the A-1 is set it takes a tool or tip of a round to move. The A-1 just looks sleeker to me. Like the way it should be. IMHO. Best regards, Scott
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:17:19 AM EDT
Im sorry Im old school. I carried the M16A1 and the M16A2 while in the ARMY. I liked them both. I would vote for the A2 .Thats just me....I love iron sites. But love the weight of the A1 with pencil barrel. Don't ya hate to many choices??? :) WD
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:17:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scottfn308: I have 4 ARs and they all have A-1 uppers. The A-2 front sight is way too thick, (it looks like a telephone pole in the way at 100yds), and the rear is too complex to operate in the field under stress. I also do not like the fact that your zero can be ruined by a quick twist of a knob. After the A-1 is set it takes a tool or tip of a round to move. The A-1 just looks sleeker to me. Like the way it should be. IMHO. Best regards, Scott
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I hear ya, all personal preference. I love the A2 sights and hit tight with them all day long. I have never lost my zero by bumping the knob.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:28:24 AM EDT
Yeah I agree the A-2 setup is a good one, and much better than the A-1 as far as zeroing and bullet impact ranging is concerned. But the A-3 is certainly more versatile.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:47:28 AM EDT
If yea stick with the same ammo, A1 wouldnt be to bad. On a A2, you can quickly adjust for differnt bullet weights & general windage. I worked with A1 sights, on M16's while in the service. I currently have A2 sights on my Bushy A2S, Im hooked on them, I think their 2nd to none. [:D] TG
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:51:11 AM EDT
A3 is my favorite, but A1 is my favorite fixed upper. But then again I dont target shoot on static ranges and fiddle with my sights.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:52:10 AM EDT
I think I'm gonna order an A2 upper with a Bushmaster M16 profile 20" barrel. Preban of course, as it's going on a PWA lower with an M16 stock. [bounce] I just think every AR collection needs an iron sight set up. I betcha too, that even though my carbine has all the bells, lights, sights, cup holders, etc and my Varminter is tricked beyond conceivable understanding, I'm sure my plain 20" AR15 will be my favorite. Now I need to figure out what configuration on my [b]4rth[/b] AR should be!
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:04:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 8:05:57 AM EDT by Minuteman419]
If you know someone who has a Bushy Upper, ask them to let you try it on that Lower first. I just had trouble putting a Bushy A-2 upper on a Oly lower and had to do some filing along the whole bottom edge(of the upper) to get it to fit. Armalite, RRA and Colt uppers fit it fine BTW. Good Luck... MM419
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:13:03 AM EDT
Interesting point, think I'll start a thread and see if there's an issue. Thanks for the heads up.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:44:19 AM EDT
I have three PWA lowers. I have used Colt, DPMS and Bushmaster uppers on them. They all matched up just right. PWA made a great lower. On the topic at hand. I have come to love the A1 or should I say C7 style of upper. Simple and clean the way a fighting rifle should be. I have run an M4 with the A2 upper and a TA-11 ACOG for the last 4 years. The only time it was an issue haveing the ACOG up on the carry handle was shooting head shots at 3 yards. Other than that no big deal. In CQB I like having the ACOG up high so I can keep my head up it also helps when your wearing a gas mask. Thess may not be issues for you but they have come up in my life. Pic of what 20 inch AR with the A1/C7 upper looks like. [img]http://www.diemaco.com/images/sal-c7.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 9:08:12 AM EDT
Excellent data, thanks Luckystiff
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 10:35:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73:
Originally Posted By scottfn308: I have 4 ARs and they all have A-1 uppers. The A-2 front sight is way too thick, (it looks like a telephone pole in the way at 100yds), and the rear is too complex to operate in the field under stress. I also do not like the fact that your zero can be ruined by a quick twist of a knob. After the A-1 is set it takes a tool or tip of a round to move. The A-1 just looks sleeker to me. Like the way it should be. IMHO. Best regards, Scott
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I hear ya, all personal preference. I love the A2 sights and hit tight with them all day long. I have never lost my zero by bumping the knob.
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Yes it is all about personal preference. When I started shooting AR-15s all you could have was an A-1 upper. By the time the A-2 came out, I was already used to the A-1. I felt comfortable with the A-1 and did't see the need to change. I do however make modifications to the front sight posts. I turn them down to .055 on long sight radius rifles and to .050 on short sight radius rifles. (Like the M-4 and CAR-15). This does tighten up group size considerably. I feel that the A-2 front sight is too thick, and being square develops shadows that keep it from being picked up quickly. (At least for me) A thinner front sight post also gives you better pinpoint accuracy, if a target is behind cover or whatever. But you don't want it too thin or you can't see it in low light. Experiment and find out what works for you. I zero my A-1s short range app. for 150yds, so when you flip to the long, it is on at about 350yds. I feel that is far enough for a 14.5" barrel. Any farther than that and I just use holdover on the target. That can be effective if you know your rifle's point of impact at any given range. Best regards, Scott
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:28:34 AM EDT
I have never had to touch the sight on my A2. Havent found a range long enough yet to require adjustment so for me all the iron sights are the same. My next AR will be flattop because the benefits of the ACOG toward visability and acquiring targets are just too great. Shooting with irons is fun, but when you are shooting for serious purposes...
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:59:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scottfn308: I zero my A-1s short range app. for 150yds, so when you flip to the long, it is on at about 350yds. I feel that is far enough for a 14.5" barrel. Any farther than that and I just use holdover on the target. That can be effective if you know your rifle's point of impact at any given range. Best regards, Scott
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Wondering, how does changing the rear app. change the "elevation" setting as you pointed towards? Do you put the top of the front sight post on the top of the app. on certain shots? Trying to learn how to adjust for longer shots on a A1 rear sight. As for the topic, I'm an irons man myself. For CQB everyone has their EOtech's and Aimpoints but I feel you can easily hit someone <25yds without even using sights. Try this, have your rifle(unloaded) at your waist or pointed at the ground, now pick something out 15yds or so away, bring the rifle up fast and get it pointed at the "target" without sights. Hold it still and then look through the sights to check yourself. Suprised?
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:56:23 PM EDT
A1s are nice, but I can shoot accuratley at greater distances than point blank range. All that practice goes to waste with the A1. With an A2, I can go out to 500+ yards with confidence. If you are not interested in shooting that far, the A1 is the way to go. Just hope you don't run into a bad guy who has an A2 and knows how to use it. The primary advantage of the A4 is the ability to mount magnified optics. However, I think this is overated for a combat weapon. With practice you can shoot a very, very long way with the A2 irons. Your are really only limited by the capabilities of the 5.56 round. I shoot tighter with A2 irons than I do with a scope like the ACOG. Most scopes make you slow. The ACOGs are faster than irons, but they in turn are slower than a dot scope. The irons have poor low light performance. Given all of this, a very good setup is A2 irons for medium to long range and an Aimpoint mounted forward for short range and poor lighting. I feel very confident with such a setup, and think it compares well to an A4 with an ACOG.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 1:24:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By imposter: A1s are nice, but I can shoot accuratley at greater distances than point blank range. All that practice goes to waste with the A1. With an A2, I can go out to 500+ yards with confidence. If you are not interested in shooting that far, the A1 is the way to go. Just hope you don't run into a bad guy who has an A2 and knows how to use it. The primary advantage of the A4 is the ability to mount magnified optics. However, I think this is overated for a combat weapon. With practice you can shoot a very, very long way with the A2 irons. Your are really only limited by the capabilities of the 5.56 round. I shoot tighter with A2 irons than I do with a scope like the ACOG. Most scopes make you slow. The ACOGs are faster than irons, but they in turn are slower than a dot scope. The irons have poor low light performance. Given all of this, a very good setup is A2 irons for medium to long range and an Aimpoint mounted forward for short range and poor lighting. I feel very confident with such a setup, and think it compares well to an A4 with an ACOG.
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Imposter, I can shoot farther than point-blank effectively also. I have successfully engaged targets at farther than 400yds with an A-1 upper on my rifle, by using the holdover technique. The front sight is way too wide for my tastes, it is also the main gripe I have with A-2 sights. However with a 14.5" barrel and a suppressor, 400-500yds is about max effective range. Tivoli410 The long range aperature on the A-1 is TALLER than the short range aperature. This gives more elevation to the rifle when it is flipped down. These are just my opinions and YMMV, this is what works works for me. Best regards, Scott
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 3:29:52 PM EDT
One can easily switch out the front sight post.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 10:02:02 AM EDT
The A2's sights and stock were designed for range shooting. For field work, the A1/C7 sights are more reliable, and the A1/C1 stocks are more ergonomic.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:32:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 7:34:52 PM EDT by model927]
HAVE BOTH AND LIKE EM BOTH,DRILLED OUT THE A1 REAR ARPERTURE TO .200 AND I MUST HAVE GOT IT RIGHT BECAUSE AT 50 YDS WITH 11.5 5.5 PERM SUPRESSOR IS SHOOTING 2" AT 50 YDS OFF HAND."SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS STUCK"
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 8:37:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By model927: SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS STUCK"
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ROTFLMAO!
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 11:25:18 PM EDT
CANT UNDERSTAND YOU UNLESS YOU SPELL IT OUT IHATE CODE.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 8:15:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By model927: CANT UNDERSTAND YOU UNLESS YOU SPELL IT OUT IHATE CODE.
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Do you understand CARTOON ? ROTFLMAO! = [ROFL2] [ROFL]
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 8:38:37 AM EDT
Hokie asks, ________________ Core question...What's your opinion on upper recievers? __________________ Core answer: M4 sexy A2 is what the bullet was originally designed for. A3 is for playing sniper. If you're SP. Ops one day and sniper the next and Plain Jane after, that get all 3 and interchange. I prefer A2.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 9:09:00 AM EDT
I'm trying to figure out a few things here. First off, why in a thread about upper receivers are some people discussing butt stocks, front sight posts and barrel weights? Secondly, apparently I'm the only guy this applies to, but I really don't like the view thrught the A1 as compared to the A2. The A1 has a lot less space on either side of the aperture and I feel like I have tunnel vision with it even though both eyes are open. The additional space on each side of an A2 aperture (or a GG&G or ARMS flip-up) is much more comfortable for me. What I would like is an A2 rear sight but replace the windage knob with an A1 style that won't get 'unadjusted' and is a lower profile.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 12:30:55 PM EDT
My carbine has an A1 upper. I got it for a couple of reasons: 1. $50 cheaper than A2 2. $130+ cheaper than A3 w/carry handle 3. There is nowhere for me to take a shot over 100 yards in the local area. 4. Learned to shoot on the A1, and it worked OK for me, so why mess with it? 5. It is a carbine, so long range/scope shooting was not my intent. just a short and handy relatively inexpensive (in the world of evil black rifles) toy! standard disclaimer: YMMV
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 4:22:34 PM EDT
I'm gonna roll with an A2, as I stated above, but I think my underlying reasons stem from the undisputable fact that most if not all my shooting will be done at the range. If SHTF, I'm sure the A2 will preform. Besides, I've already got an azz-kickin sharpshootin' AR setup, and a carbine. Me thinks a slick A2 20" gov't profile would be a nice add on. I've already crossed the line of practical, I'm now into collecting! Hoplophile and mister2 you both have very good points. Cheers
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 7:03:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2003 7:07:21 PM EDT by model927]
To G35 I get it now[thinking]
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 10:24:19 PM EDT
I sold every shorty I owned, they just did nothing for me. All my AR's are Iron sight 20's and my favorite is my Pre-ban PWA A2 Clone with a GI 1:7 barrel that I use for military EIC combat match practice.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 1:43:07 AM EDT
my lower is a PWA as well. I'm just not sure if I want a 1:7 or a 1:9 twist on the 20" gov't A2. Decisions decisions...
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