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Posted: 6/26/2003 8:05:14 PM EDT
I have a question, how would the feds know what weapons you have? Im in the state of Florida and we have no gun regestration here. The paper work you fill out for the back ground check does not say one way or another what type of weapon your buying. The only person who has a record of the gun sale is the gun dealer you bought the gun from. Providing you bought the gun brand new. I guess if you buy it from a private dealer no one has a record of the transaction. So how would they know if it came to gun confiscation?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:25:00 PM EDT
The ATF performs 'Compliance Checks' every year or so on dealers. They have full access to their books and will enforce illegal sales. If they wanted to, they could easily use that information for confiscation, all they'd have to do is demand all dealers turn in their books or go to jail. Unless you know a dealer who would have an accidental fire on that day (I'd hope they all would) there are no guarantees you won't be sold into slavery. On top of this: - Do you have a firearms or hunting permit? - Did you pay for your gun on your credit card? - Do you pay for ammo or equipment on your credit card? - Do you donate to the NRA on your credit card? - Are you on any mailing lists or have any magazine subscriptions to gun magazines? Online: - Do you ever post to public forums on the Internet? - Have you ever visited the ATF's website? - Have you ever used google to search for firearm related information? Google _does_ in fact keep a record of all searches and refuses to say what they use it for. - Have you ever purchased a gun accessory online? Other: - Do you have a rebel flag on your car or an 'Eat shit' bumper sticker? - Have you ever claimed a firearm on your taxes? - Do your neighbors or friends know you own a gun? (They will denounce you when the time comes) There are probably a thousand other ways they could find a majority of the people who own guns not to mention the obvious - mandatory registration.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:37:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warhorse: I have a question, how would the feds know what weapons you have?
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Stay out of trouble with it and they won't know what you have.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:50:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BH1: Stay out of trouble with it and they won't know what you have.
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Yep, obey the laws and you, me, and the rest of us can enjoy our guns for a long time.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:00:13 PM EDT
I don't know guys, if all that jzdziarski is saying is true (which i don't doubt it isn't), I think we're all royally F***ed!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:19:21 PM EDT
Like BH1 said, the main thing is to stay out of trouble, if you stay out of trouble they really dont care what you have theyll just focus on the real criminals and gun runners. Now to answer your ? They have many ways of knowing even if its a private sale with no paperwork in volved, how do they do that you say? simple! For example some people will buy say a Ar 15 from a friend of a friend of a friend with no paperwork in volved and swear that nobody knows about thier purchase, then these individuals will get on line or on the phone and order up hundreds of dollars worth of Asseccories, cleaning kits , scope bases , flip up sights etc. and charge it to thier credit card- Get the picture now ? Why would you spend Hundreds of Dollars on AR 15 parts if you dont own a AR15? Get the picture? The Feds are plugged in directly to all three major credit Card Bureaus . I know these things because i do investigations for a living, everyday.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 8:02:09 AM EDT
First of all Jzdziarski is not only right, but he's just scratching the surface. Assuming the remaining dust from the already masterfully eroded Second Amendment gets completely blown away (one of those Constitutionsl protections that obligates the Government to preserve, protect and defend - FOR us) there ARE still a few hurdles. One of them is a law. Right now there is no law providing for blanket superceding of the the Second Amendment. They're getting there (the "Laughtenburg Amendment being the most flagrant example that comes to mind). Barring ex-felons from firearms possession opened the door. It took a while, but now selected misedmeanors (spousal battery) blew the door off the hinges. There's no nexus in the "ex-felon prohibition to cause the Government to demonstrate that any Felony had anything to do with any kind of violence. And on topic of legislative absurdity, there is actually a section (I can't recall the cite off hand) of Title 18 United States Code, that makes it a felony to counterfiet the image of "Woodsie Owl" - no shit. So if felonious counterfieting the image of Woodsie Owl is as cause supporting to revoke Constitutional Rights as felonious drug trafficking/racketeering, etc., how big is the leap to make misdemeanor speeding (it is in some states) just as cause supportng as misdemeanor spousal battery (like say, dumping a bowl of cold pasta at your errant teenager who is pitching a temper tantrum at the kitchen table)? I wish I was making that up. But it's a matter of record (not mine). But when they do take enough steps to legislate further infringement of the Second Amendment, to permit the Government to outlaw possession of whatever firearms we have left, there's still the Forth and Fifth Amendments (and don't ever think those are absolute, nor universally interpreted and applied either). Of course, obviously, seizing your firearms is going to first require finding them. It's true there is a paper, as well as electronic, trail a mile long demonstrating that someone that might have been you bought gun. But the Probable Cause Test (not-withstanding the fact that it is applied inconsistently as hell) for a search warrant requires a demonstration by the Government (supported by an affidavit executed under oath by an LEO) to a judge that: 1. Probable Cause exists to believe that a crime has been committed. and 2. Probable cause exists to believe that evidence of that crime (which has to be specifically described) exists at the location for which application for the Search Warrant is being submitted. Merely proving that your credit card was once used to buy a gun doesn't prove that you were the one who used it. Logging onto a website doesn't prove who was using the computer when the event occurred. And your owning, and/or living in a house doesn't prove anything relating to what is in that house. Demonstrating those kinds of things ALONE (being a key word) won't come close to passing any of those tests. Even combined with ALL of the the dealer's records, federal firearms forms, instant background checks (I know they're not supposed to keep them. But techonologically I guarantee they're recoverble), could prove that you probably bought a gun - once. All of those things alone, or even combined, don't go far enough to demonstrate that you probably (as in Probable Cause): 1. Still have it. and/or 2. It's in your house. Your own big mouth will though. It's human nature, don't be offended - be enlightened. Your neighbor's will help. But that's a "Pandora's Box too (i.e., your dog took a shit in his yard and it's pay back time). His credibility needs to be foundationalize for purposes of using him as a source. You also have a Fifth Amendment - your Right to Remain Silent? It's true that for your Fifth Amendment Right to apply, two circumstances must exist, which are: 1. Custody. And that test is not whether you are charged with a crime and formally placed under arrest, it's simply whether your freeom to leave is, or would have been, prohiibited. and 2. Interview (Interrogation/Solicitation of dialogue, etc). So when those "Jack Booted Thugs" show up at your door and dump their opening line on you, it would be advantageous to listen politely (but you don't have to), then tell them you don't care to talk to them. Unless they've got a subpoena. In which case, you would accept the supboena, of course, represent that you will provide it to your attorney. That would be a Grand Jury Subpoena, and ATF/FBI Agents aren't a Grand Jury. What they're usually not going to tell you, is that you have every right not to talk to them, but you do. They're not going to tell you that you have the right to leave (or close the door) either, but you do. And if they do advise you of the foregoing, be extremely judicious because they are very well trained, disciplined and skilled investigators. And they're telling you that because you: 1. Are a target of the investigation and 2. They are wisely cleaning up arguments agains defenses to supress anything you tell them. So shut up. You ALWAYS have a right to remain silent and you ALWAYS have a right to an attorney, whether you're under arrest or not. Remember that and always and exercise both of those, as is appropriate. Don't engage casually ("Oh!" "What a nice dog." "What's her name?") or confrontationally ("Show me a warrant or get the fuck out of here"). Watch your mouth, be polite and don't answer any questions with anything but other questions. And perhaps clarifications (like the classic "it depends on what the meaning of the word "is," is") Excepting, of course, those relating to your identity and what you are doing there (i.e., "Yes, I'm Joe Blow." "Yes this is my house." And, "Yes I live here." As opposed to "It's none of your business." "It's not my house." And, "I'm just a burglarizing the neighborhood."). Now, what we all need to do is realize that Civil Rights didn't happen because the Government suddently, and spontaneously, decided to enforce OUR Constitution. Unfortunately, the cost of freedom is not a price paid once, but rather a recurring charge billed in endless installments. Here's to liberty and justice for all.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 8:11:00 AM EDT
1. Probable Cause exists to believe that a crime has been committed. and 2. Probable cause exists to believe that evidence of that crime (which has to be specifically described) exists at the location for which application for the Search Warrant is being submitted.
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This doesn't seem to really apply anymore. The FBI searched 11 people's houses recently in the DC area because they were all muslims (one an army veteran) who happened to play paintball together. The FBI used that to suggest they were "training for terrorism on US soil" and was able to get a warrant to search their house. Illegal search and seizure rules no longer exist IMHO. Rumsfeld is F!$CKING CRAZY and if he had the opportunity, he would strip all Americans of their civil liberties for the sake of his agenda.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 8:56:02 AM EDT
Shit, where did i put that tin foil hat?
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 9:37:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PosterBoy:
1. Probable Cause exists to believe that a crime has been committed. and 2. Probable cause exists to believe that evidence of that crime (which has to be specifically described) exists at the location for which application for the Search Warrant is being submitted.
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This doesn't seem to really apply anymore. The FBI searched 11 people's houses recently in the DC area because they were all muslims (one an army veteran) who happened to play paintball together. The FBI used that to suggest they were "training for terrorism on US soil" and was able to get a warrant to search their house. Illegal search and seizure rules no longer exist IMHO. Rumsfeld is F!$CKING CRAZY and if he had the opportunity, he would strip all Americans of their civil liberties for the sake of his agenda.
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I'm not paranoid enough to see this happening on a large scale;But it is possible to draw an "activist" judge who feels he knows better than anyone, who would interpret the evidence, decide to authorize a warrant, BATFE shows up for a "no knock," walks away with your firearms, and by time you can present yourself in court, and prove the search was illegal, it's too late because they already have your firearms, and no, you can't have them back. But how many times can they do that before someone gets wise? It only takes once if it's you.
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