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Posted: 6/20/2003 7:05:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 7:06:58 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
I got the following question on another forum regarding the vertical grip on my recently upgraded M4gery. Do you guys agree with my answer? I ask because this is my first exprience using a foregrip and these were the reasons I found that they work. Let me know if you think I missed something because the last thing I want to do is be passing off B.S. info.

****Posted by fatdog****

very cool project

Very high speed stuff. You clearly did this one right.

I do have one question. Do you think the vertical foregrip is really the way to go? I buy the general assertion you noted:

"The vertical foregrip puts your off-hand in a stronger bio-mechanical position speeding up your gunhandling it also allows better rapid fire shot control and induces much less fatique when shooting off hand."

It has felt so awkward to me every time I tried one on an AR-15 (on someone else' gun) that I have not pursued that mod, but I keep thinking there must be something to it since I see so many on the guns of people who probably know what they are doing.

Just curious if you liked it now that you have one and have shot it some, and why. Is there really a noticable advantage once you get used to it?

It could just be that I can't easily overcome 25 years of muscle memory with the conventional front stocks and associated grip/stance. That does not mean I should not try I guess.

TIA

****Yojimbo's reply****


First my disclaimer, please note that I'm not a SEAL, DELTA, SF, Ranger or other high speed operator I'm just a guy who likes shoot, train with and collect firearms. I'm also not a professional firearms trainer and I'm basically just repeating things I've learned from people who've forgotten way more than I'll ever know.

That being said, I really like the AR series of rifles but I also understand that it's not the be all and end all of rifles. I enjoy configuring AR's and trying to squeeze as much performance as I can without seriously comprimising it's design and gunfighting ability.

Now back to your question...

I'm sure you've noticed that the way longarms are used tends to be very different when shooting for accuracy or match style compared to the methods used when gunfighting.

Here, an HK trainer shows excellent form in the gunfighting stance.



Note the following:
1. Forward lean and squarer stance.
2. Shortened stock position to allow proper cheek weld and eye relief from the sights.
3. Butt of stock placed closer to centerline, below dominant eye vs shoulder pocket.
4. Elbows down.
5. Off hand placed further back, around the magwell instead of the handguards.

This is kind of like the mod-iso stance for longarms. It allows fast movement in different directions and most importantly faster target aquisition and gunhandling during the fight.

Having the off hand around the mag well offers the same advantages of using the vertical grip that I mentioned. So in essence, a vertical grip is not necessary and only a change in stance and grip is all that's needed to get the same effect.

The vertical grip comes more into play depending on how your rifle is configured. As more accessories, optics, etc.,get installed the way your rifle balances and handles changes. The vertical grip allows you adjust the feel of your rifle to maintain the advantages of the gunfighting stance described above.

You'll notice on my rifle that I have the vertical grip placed just under the optics. This location was the sweet spot for my rifle where the weight/speed/balance was just perfect for me and yet still allows me to maintain a comortable combat stance.

Everybody is built differently and everyones rifle is also configured differently, so much of configuring a AR type carbine or rifle boils down to user preference. You basically just have to try different things and use what works best for you and your setup.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:23:28 AM EDT
Wow, I thought the forward grip was for shooting rapid-fire from the hip![LOL]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:34:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By notack: Wow, I thought the forward grip was for shooting rapid-fire from the hip![LOL]
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Oh, damn, I forgot to add that one...[;)][lol]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 8:34:44 AM EDT
I am not one for accessories. But the VG is a good one, it allows you to pull the weapon in tight on your shoulder, allowing less movement for singler shots, and less muzzle jump in FA. IMO.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:07:41 PM EDT
If the AR/M16 receiver didn't get so hot during rapid/FA fire, then I'd hold it by the front of the receiver... since it does (and the front grips are so cheap) I just went vertical grip (back by the receiver). :) Alex
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:28:22 PM EDT
Personally, I don't like the vertical grip for control of the weapon. I find it harder than the stance which places the arms as close to the body as possible. I do find the forward grip invaluable as a mono-pod; evidently this is important to others also as a modified forward grip which includes an integral notched extension to elevate the rifle has been incorporated into the current SOPMOD revision.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:54:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rabbit9: I find it harder than the stance which places the arms as close to the body as possible
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Then you're not using the grip 'right'. The grip should not be near the front sight - but farily close to the magazine well. This gives better muzzle control and your arms will be closer to your body.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:10:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By Rabbit9: I find it harder than the stance which places the arms as close to the body as possible
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Then you're not using the grip 'right'. The grip should not be near the front sight - but farily close to the magazine well. This gives better muzzle control and your arms will be closer to your body.
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I've read different on this site. Closer to the magwell for CQB ranges as it allows faster, smoother motion, farther out toward the front site to provide more stability for offhand shooting at targets farther out.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:06:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stryfe: ...farther out toward the front site to provide more stability for offhand shooting at targets farther out.
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The DCM shooters like to put their hands further out to minimize motion for precision shooting in prone (where your elbows rest on the ground). This does not work when your elbows have nothing to rest on. However, moving your grip further out (toward the front sight) removes any mechanical stabilization and you must rely completly on muscles to hold the hand in place. Note even the high power shooters bring their hands closer to the receiver when shooting offhand so they get more mechanical stability.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:30:15 PM EDT
Vertical fore grip is for people with "Look at Me" syndrome. Ooooh I'm so tactical that I need this gadget!
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:40:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rabbit9: Personally, I don't like the vertical grip for control of the weapon. I find it harder than the stance which places the arms as close to the body as possible. I do find the forward grip invaluable as a mono-pod; evidently this is important to others also as a modified forward grip which includes an integral notched extension to elevate the rifle has been incorporated into the current SOPMOD revision.
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I once saw a picture of the KAC grip with the telescoping monopod, but I have been unable to track one down. It did apear to be made out of a Harris bipod leg. Do you know where to get these?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:42:53 PM EDT
Military uses it, also during extended fire keeps your hand further away from the heat
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:13:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm: Vertical fore grip is for people with "Look at Me" syndrome. Ooooh I'm so tactical that I need this gadget!
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This is usually what I hear from guys who have sold all their ars and bought mini 14s. [bounce]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:20:40 PM EDT
Note the following: 1. Forward lean and squarer stance. 2. Shortened stock position to allow proper cheek weld and eye relief from the sights. 3. Butt of stock placed closer to centerline, below dominant eye vs shoulder pocket. 4. Elbows down. 5. Off hand placed further back, around the magwell instead of the handguards.
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This is how we were taught at Sigarms with the exception of placing the stock center to chest.I used my magwell as a place for my weak hand instead of a vertical grip for fear that it might get in the way.It doesn't though, and I train with one now.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 10:08:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chdaal4:
Originally Posted By markm: Vertical fore grip is for people with "Look at Me" syndrome. Ooooh I'm so tactical that I need this gadget!
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This is usually what I hear from guys who have sold all their ars and bought mini 14s. [bounce]
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I can't imagine anyone who would be fool enough to replace an AR with a Mini 14.
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