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Posted: 6/1/2003 5:47:26 PM EDT
I have a light weight DPMS postban 16" carbine that came with a pinned telestyle stock. This stock is pinned at the maximum extended position. Is there any reason that a pinned telestock fixed so that it cannot be adjusted has to be pinned at maximum length? I have a drawer full of old telestocks that I could easily pin like the factory job, but with a shorter length of pull. I would rather have something shorter, but not as short as the "stubby" Bushmaster fixed stocks. It seems that it would be ok, but I thought I would ask the group. The assault weapon ban rules are so silly sometimes it is hard to know all of the details. Thanks in advance. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 5:55:17 PM EDT
I may be going out on a limb here, buuuttt, all the post-ban "telestocks" I've seen have a buffer tube the same length as the stock, i.e. the end of the buffer tube and the backside of the stock are flush. You couldn't convert one even if you wanted to unless you cut the buffer tube down. That may be what you have to do to get it "custom" fitted to your preferable length-of-pull. As far as what constitutes "pinned open", I have no idea.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 6:47:37 PM EDT
This postban telestock is just a regular telestock that is set to the longest position and then two blind roll pins have been put in place so that it cannot be moved/shortened. I would like to do the same thing, but pin it at a shorter fixed length. Anyone? Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 6:52:54 PM EDT
There has been much discussion over whether or not a fixed telestock like yours would be legal - since technically you could remove the pins and make it a telescoping stock. Assuming what you have is legal, then there would be no reason not to pin it at a different length. I was thinking the other day that someone out there should make the fixed stocks available at different lengths but AFAIK no-one does.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 7:58:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 8:01:15 PM EDT by Watch-Six]
It would be difficult to remove the pins in the DPMS supplied factory stock since they are in blind holes. That is the hole is not drilled completely through the metal stock locking rail, but only part way through. The pins then bottom out in the dead end hole. Of course the pins could be drilled out, but they could not be easily removed by punching them out. This is similar to the pinned on muzzle brakes on some post ban rifles. I cannot see any reason it would not be legal, since it is in fact a fixed length stock and the overall length of the rifle exceeds the legal minimum. I do not intend to actually modify the DPMS stock, but to create a similar stock from an old collapsible stock that I already have. I intend to put blind roll pins into the adjustment rail at my desired length and never to disturb them. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:16:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 11:17:41 PM EDT by Shadowblade]
I wasn't trying to say that the DPMS stock was illegal, just that there had been a lot of discussion over it. I'm not qualified to say, so I didn't want to say "Yes, it's legal." That being said, if you do it the same way DPMS did, only shorter, you are just as legal as they are since you still meet the minimum length requirements[:)]. Personally I think it is ridiculous that we have to worry about it... If it ever got to court and the defense held up a full length fixed stock and mentioned it was legal, then held up a shortened length fixed stock and mentioned it was legal, the held up a preban and moved it back and forth and mentioned it was illegal, I think the whole thing would get thrown out...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 1:11:34 AM EDT
call your local BATF office and ask them, i did this and got the ok. i called the main office in seattle and in portland to make sure. both agents told me as long as the stock fixed permanently then it is legal, length doesnt matter. i roll pinned mine and glued it so if the pins are pushed out it is still fixed. the BATF guys were actually pretty cool about the whole ordeal and were very helpful.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:24:40 AM EDT
buy a collapsible. Set it at the length you want. SOMEHOW, make it permanent. (When I say PERMANENT, I mean no amount of tools, labor, chipping and grinding can get it to move.) I'd recommend something more than super glue: Acetone could be dumped on it, causing the glue to dissolve, and collapse. Glue into the end of it FLUSH with your shoulder a buffer tube end. It'll make it look fully extended. (Plus, this would be another avenue to make it permanent....) MAKE IT PERMANENT, and all your worries go away.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:17:44 AM EDT
"SOMEHOW, make it permanent. (When I say PERMANENT, I mean no amount of tools, labor, chipping and grinding can get it to move.) I'd recommend something more than super glue: Acetone could be dumped on it, causing the glue to dissolve, and collapse." Anything you can do, I can UNDO, probably with common tools. Pinning is enough.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:12:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man: "Pinning is enough.
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Not according to the BATF or else Bushmaster and RRA wouldn't have spent all that money to come up with a post-ban compliant stock that looks like a telestock.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:33:09 AM EDT
Thank you all for your input. Since the DPMS stock that came on the factory assembled rifle was only blind pinned, it appears that blind pinning is enough to me. I have not seen post ban telestyle stocks from Bushmaster or RRA, but DPMS is not exactly a come lately brand in the AR world. As far as calling the BATF, I did that once before in regards to questions on an AK. They were not very helpful and I got different info from two different people there. Neither person would take legal responsibility for their advice, so I didn't take it as binding. Again, thanks for your input. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:04:01 AM EDT
I did this. Set stock to desired length, epoxy mechanism with High temp epoxy, then blind pin from each side, then epoxy over pin holes to seal and hide. Simply put the stock would have to be destroyed to get the pins out and get the stock to move. It was a $30 aftermarket. If the ban sunsets, I'll toss it and replace with a high end telestock. If the ban is renewed, its already legal and should last a lifetime in this configuration.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:41:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 1:54:18 PM EDT by Watch-Six]
shotar, The epoxy idea is a good one. I will add that to the mix. On second thought, I'm not certain that the DPMS stock does not have some sort of a glue job. The release mechanism still works, but the pins hold the stock in a fixed position. There could be another means of securing it that is not visible. This is an old left over stock from another project and I do not care about ever reconfiguring it for a preban. Same goes for the DPMS stock that came with the rifle. I will not mess around with either of them ever again. I have several other serviceable preban configured telestocks if I ever need one. (Hopefully after the ban sunsets.) Thanks again. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:49:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Watch-Six: Thank you all for your input. Since the DPMS stock that came on the factory assembled rifle was only blind pinned, it appears that blind pinning is enough to me.
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WARNING! DPMS also put out post ban rifles with A2 flash supressor welded on. They thought if it were permanent it was legal. They never checked with the BATF - nor read the law obviously. As a result they sold alot of rifles in an illegal configuration. I beleive they are doing the same again. Just because DPMS is selling something that doesn't make it legal. Again - if it were so simple don't you think Bushmaster would have done it?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:41:46 AM EDT
Jeez Guys! The law says NON folding and NON telescoping......period. It does not say "not easily made to telescope" or "used to telescope but modified to not telescope". Either your stock telescopes or not. There is nothing else contained in the law and no regulations on the issue save some vague opinions by various BATF personnell. Think about it.......I could install a CAR tube on my Bushmaster and cut the last 4 inches off my A2 stock and install a hinge from Home Depot to make it a "folder" and then just JB weld the monstrosity onto the lower. Uh Oh! Did I just make all A2 stocks "POTENTIAL" violations of the law??? The point is, we have enough bullshit laws that we HAVE to obey...........lets stop obeying ones that do not exist! BTW, I have 2 factory fixed CAR stocks, one OLY and one RRA. they are both just pinned with roll pins and not even blind ones. There may be some glue or something in there but I guarantee that if I push out those pins and whack it with a deadblow that sucker will telescope bigtime. They have no mechanisims but that is more a matter of economics than legality. And YES I do believe that if a company is selling something that it is legal. In today's world all firearm manufacturers have a whole staff of lawyers checking on EVERYTHING.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 1:18:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas: In today's world all firearm manufacturers have a whole staff of lawyers checking on EVERYTHING.
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Really!!? And how many years have you owned a fireamrs manufacturing company? Or are you on the legal staff at one of these companies? Most firearms companies don't have the cash to keep lawyers on hand to review everything - and DPMS is one of the smaller AR companies. Besides if they had these 'laywers to check everything' how did so many rifle with flash suppressors mounted on them get through? Guess What the BATF is empowered to create the regulations to enforce the laws. If their Tech Branch (who issues opinions on these matters) says NO Telelscoping stock may be 'fixed' is legal - then its illegal until you or a buddy gets arrested and wins the court case. No amount of whining "that's unfair" or "thats not realistic" will change anything. That is how it is. Don't like it? Then work to insure the AWB dies next year like its supposed to.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:13:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: [If their Tech Branch (who issues opinions on these matters) says NO Telelscoping stock may be 'fixed' is legal - then its illegal until you or a buddy gets arrested and wins the court case.
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I just got off the phone with the BATF "tech branch" in Maryland......the guy watched 44 minutes last night and has issued an "opinion" that ALL AR's are illegal. You have 24hrs to turn in your rifles and remember....no whining about it being "unfair". He issued the opinion so it MUST be the law.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:13:07 AM EDT
Have you seen the short "tactical stock"? It looks like a short characature of the longer A2. It is the same length as a fully collapsed shorty stock. BUT, it is legal because the overall length of the rifle (with 16" barrel) is over 26". Now for the monkey wrench in the works... they make a buttplate that TELESCOPES in and out... an adjustable buttplate. Does this not constitute a telescoping stock? Yet, this is sold as post-ban legal. You figure it out, I can't. And I don't think any reasonable person can. An opinion from ATF is not law, and is just that, an opinion until it goes to court. The law just says it can't fold or telescope. There is no mention of welding or epoxy in the law.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:38:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas: I just got off the phone with the BATF "tech branch" in Maryland......the guy watched 44 minutes last night and has issued an "opinion" that ALL AR's are illegal
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Don't be such an A$$. The ONLY opinions that matter are the ones that come in writing from the tech branch. There is a written opinion from the Tech Branch on telescoping stocks - if you bothered to check the legal forum of this site you could find a link to it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:46:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man: Have you seen the short "tactical stock"? It looks like a short characature of the longer A2. It is the same length as a fully collapsed shorty stock. BUT, it is legal because the overall length of the rifle (with 16" barrel) is over 26". Now for the monkey wrench in the works... they make a buttplate that TELESCOPES in and out...
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yep got one of these setups.
Does this not constitute a telescoping stock? Yet, this is sold as post-ban legal. You figure it out, I can't. And I don't think any reasonable person can.
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Its legal because it requires TOOLS to adjust. Also its the buttplate that is adjusted - NOT the stock. You can remove the adjustable portion of the buttplate and still have a perfectly usable STOCK in place. The law specifies Stock. Its a grey area to be sure, but its much more dark than it is light. You want reasonableness with BATF regulations & Gun Laws? Shoot that would be nice but don't hold your breath.
An opinion from ATF is not law, and is just that, an opinion until it goes to court.
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You are correct - However a written option from the BATF Tech Branch is held in high esteem by the judges. You only hope is to get a friendly judge or hope the opinion was so ludicrous as to be obviously unreasonable. Good Luck.
There is no mention of welding or epoxy in the law.
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If you WELD it (how do you weld plastic to Aluminum anyway? [;)]) that would be fine (finally a use for those aluminum telestocks). However there BATF has always held epoxy is not considered 'Permanent' (that is why you have pin & weld or silver solder permanent muzzle devices).
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:52:08 AM EDT
I wonder if pinning combined with milling out the detent hole channel with the exception of the hole you want it at would work?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:04:29 AM EDT
I think I saw this on "Cops" the other night. "This is the Police. Everyone up against the wall. We are here to inspect the method by which your telestock is made into a fixed telestock!" "Hey Sarge, what is a fixed telestock anyway?" "Beats the hell out of me, but I'll know one when I see it."
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:22:22 AM EDT
I can't believe what a can of worms I have opened with this thread. FWIW, and it may be worth nothing, I just got off of the telephone with Paul at DPMS. He assured me that my new DPMS rifle is perfectly legal and ok with the BATF. Like I said, FWIW. I would appreciate a link to the official BATF written opinion if anyone can provide it. I have looked in the legal forum back as far as the browser will allow and have found nothing relevant. Thanks again. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:31:01 AM EDT
Watch Six - if the post is so old SEARCH can't find it just ask. The guys there have a link to a site that archives Tech Branch Opinion letters. These are letters people have gotten written responses from and submit them to the site to be made public. BTW asking DPMS is their product is legal doesn't solve the issue. If you had asked them if their post-ban barrels with the A2 flash supressors were legal on post-bans they would have said yes too back when they were doing it. Lumpy: Your proposal sounds interesting, I can think of nothing wrong with it - but I ain't the Tech Branch.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:33:32 AM EDT
You guys with the DPMS stock. Have any of you removed the plastic part (i.e. removed the blind pins and checked the tube?). IIRC the primary reason you can pin a pre-ban into a post ban is it still has the detent holes. If DPMS is only drilling a single detent hole in the rail then it would be ok (much like Bushmaster does on their full length post ban telestocks).
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 12:54:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Don't be such an A$$.
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I am so done with this shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You call ME an ass? Look everyone, using Forest's words: These are OPINIONS, written or not!! They are NOT LAWS!! This is the whole point and Forest, if you spent more time reading the freaking Constitution instead of meaningless bureaucratic opinion memos you will see that Congress makes the laws and not some ATF agent and the law says NON TELESCOPING.....period. I cant believe that everyone is worrying so much about epoxy and detent holes when you just have to make the damn thing not work! Have fun everyone.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:46:27 PM EDT
Rick, Grow up a bit will you? Of course they are opinion - but they are opinions by the people who are empowered to excute the laws of the land. It is how they will respond and most likely how the courts will rule. "Read the Constitution" I keep a copy in my desk, I suggest you do the same and actually read it, then take a class on basic government. Congress only passes the laws - most of these laws are vauge (intentionally so) and its up to the Executive Branch to interpret, to the best of their ability, on what they mean and how to enforce them. This is where the BATF comes in. They are part of the Executve Branch and they are the ones who create the regulations that execute & enforce the laws passed by Congress dealing with firearms. Should you violate those regulations (and are caught) it will be up to the Courts to decide if the Executive Branches regulations were indeed the proper interpretation of the original law. That in a nutshell is how it works. The process is entirely constitutional - even if the laws are not. For example what does the term [i]"threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor"[/i] really mean? Taken literally you would not be allowed to have a rifle with threads even if the device was permanent. Thankfully the BATF had a more agreeable interpretation and allow barrels to have threads for the installation of post-ban muzzle devices providing they are "permanently installed". Wanna guess who gets to define "permanently installed" (hint it isn't he guy in the mirror). What is the definition of "Flash Suppressor"? Does it cover performance or looks (or both)? Again this is up to the regulating agency (in this case the BATF). Now YOUR interpretation may be resonable (I certainly think so) but the BATF says otherwise. I would seem kind of silly to be arrested and have to go to court because you didn't think the BATFs regs were 'fair' or 'constitutional'. Even if the court rules in your favor (which is doubtful) the legal fees you spent and the time lost from work could have paid for many many pre-bans. At best you could expect to lose the rifle. If that is worth it to you;then you go boy! Let us know where to send the donations to your legal aid fund. Do what you will - just go into with your eyes open knowing how the people who enforce the law will execute it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:16:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gootmacher: call your local BATF office and ask them, i did this and got the ok. i called the main office in seattle and in portland to make sure. both agents told me as long as the stock fixed permanently then it is legal, length doesnt matter. i roll pinned mine and glued it so if the pins are pushed out it is still fixed. the BATF guys were actually pretty cool about the whole ordeal and were very helpful.
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Same response from the BATFE guys (actually a lady) here in New Jersey. Collapse it and blind pin it and you will be fine.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:33:16 PM EDT
I was surprised (pleasantly) that on a Carbon 15, one could remove the stock completely. The owner's manual does not suggest firing like this, but it would work fine. There would only be six inches of buffer tube sticking out of the back of the receiver. How could an intelligent person not see that legislating the length of a stock, on a rifle, is a violation of the 2nd Amendment? I don't think this law is what our founding fathers had in mind.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:35:03 PM EDT
The DPMS rifle still has the normal locking mechanism installed. It is set into the last hole and then pinned. I think we have talked enough about this issue. Thanks to all. Let's let it go away. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 6:21:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 8:50:48 PM EDT by rickinvegas]
Forest, You are correct on every point except one, The section of the 1994 omnibus crime bill dealing with evil features has never been codified. The regulations you refer to do not exist on these points. As for the threads on this board, I am always surprised at the level that they either rise to or fall to on a given issue. My frustration originates from the wholesale spreading of information that is faulty at best and outright lies at worst. I am not necessarily referring to this thread but certainly others. As for either of us reading the Constitution, while I have no knowledge about your background, I hold degrees in both Political science and History. I served as a political appointee staff member at the Cabinet level during the last year of the Reagan administration and the first year of Bush 1 while in my early 20's. My roommate from college went on to become the Executive Director of Virginia's Project Exile and is now the Director of a private foundation running point for Bush's version of the same program at the Federal level (Project Safe Neighborhoods). If you would like to speak to the U.S. Atty responsible for federal gun law prosecutions in Southern Virginia, I think I have his card laying around somewhere. Nice guy, pro gun. I am not making this stuff up and I am tired of having to defend the obvious truth. Thanks for your time but I don't believe I will be posting on such issues in the future.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:17:29 PM EDT
Just a little over a year, and this will be moot.
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