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Posted: 5/28/2003 5:00:45 PM EDT
The book "Life After Doomsday" recommends the HK-91 as "absolutely the best defensive firearm available," able to shoot continuously for days, usually resistant to deliberate attempts to jam it, and capable of producing 3/8" groups at 100 yds.

This book is over 20 years old, so I was wondering: Is the AR-15 a good substitute today for the HK-91? I realize the HK is a larger, more powerful caliber (7.62x51), but all things considered...
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:33:18 PM EDT
I think the AR would be a better alternative than the HK91. Cheaper ammo, cheaper mags, cheaper parts, easier to work on and just as accurate.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:49:56 PM EDT
Best rifle? IMO, Hands down it the Enfield No. 4. Relatively cheap, 10 rd mag, lightning fast bolt action. .303 Brit can handle most any game in North America.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:01:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:11:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hawkinszouave: Best rifle? IMO, Hands down it the Enfield No. 4. Relatively cheap, 10 rd mag, lightning fast bolt action. .303 Brit can handle most any game in North America.
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Yeah, I have one of those. Last time I shot it the 20th round cracked the stock in half!
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:25:14 PM EDT
Dittos on the HK-91 vs the FAL. The FAL is more reliable, easier to clean, mags are cheap. Overall, IMO, a much better 7.62. Doomsday in this country it's going to be tough to beat an AR, just from availability of ammo (especially military ammo that is manufactured for weather and abuse), parts, etc. Why do you think, 8 years into a ban on 30 round magazines, you can still get USGI M-16 mags pretty cheap? ... Millions floating around. Everything's a compromise. I could debate that a bolt action rifle is the best way to go. Still, if I had to run out the door and hide for days, I'd have to reach for my AR and an ammo can of 5.56.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:32:09 PM EDT
2 or 3 of the exact same rifle , a technical manual, and the tools to work on it. The rifle will be of great debate but if you only get one and it has to go on your back id say an AR with a pocket/buttstock full of already made repair kits and CLP. The strong will survive and the hungriest of those will eat the others. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:40:11 PM EDT
M-16 with a suppressor.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:09:56 PM EDT
Doomsday gun, AWC silenced 10/22 w/ scope & a backpack of 22's. These are so quiet that they are undetectable, and they look like a standard 10/22. Perception is something to keep in mind. You see someone with a Bad A$$ AR and they will stick out like sore thumb. Interesting topic to think about.... Prosise
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:10:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hawkinszouave: Best rifle? IMO, Hands down it the Enfield No. 4. Relatively cheap, 10 rd mag, lightning fast bolt action. .303 Brit can handle most any game in North America.
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.303 Brit? A .243 can handle most anything in North America. The last thing I want to haul around in a SHTF situation is a heavy rifle and a lot of heavy ammo. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 7:18:44 PM EDT by Hokie]
Figure I'll toss in another angle. My survival gun is a Mossberg 590A1 with folding stock, tac light, shell holder, ghost ring sights, bayonet lug, 1 slug ready to go, 8 OO buck, 3 spare 2shot nitro mags, and 3 rifled slugs. THAT'S...a survival gun. The AR15 would of course be slung over my back, along with everything else. Think it'll be hard to move with 500 pounds of firepower and ammo?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:29:20 PM EDT
AMT .22Mag semi-auto, 20 rd. mags and 5000 rds , more power than a 22.lr, and worth the extra ammo weight. Also capable of bringing down any n.American big game, you just have to send it down the ear canal.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:02:26 PM EDT
If I could pick any gun in the world (besides my AR15s) to be the best all-around rifle, I would hands-down pick the HK G36. Some say that rifle is the most dependable rifle on the planet. However, like I said, my first choice would be an M-16 or M4 because it's easy to work on and you can easily add accessories.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:27:23 PM EDT
Tough call. I would probably skip out on the .308's solely for the weight factor. The rifles weigh more and ammo is heavy! So that leaves me in the AK vs. AR debate. AR's will have the edge in accuracy, scrounging parts, mags, ammo. Mine tend to be more tempermental (ie require more maintnance and ammo sensitive). With all the "must have" and "cool guy stuff" they are heavy (you fellow gear queers know what I mean!). A good AK (not a SAR POS), while not as accurate (mine shoot 1.5-2.5 MOA vs. the AR's which at worst shoot 1 MOA) is probably more reliable when neglected and abused - like if your humping it thru the mud, rain, snow and sand. Required maintnance is more of an issue of, "gee, maybe I should clean this AK because its been so long since I did it last." not "oh, its starting to jam/malfunction so it MUST need a good cleaning." THe mags are indestructable to anything but rust. Problem is where are you gunna get ammo if you run out? In TN, every hillbilly has an SKS or an AK so here it might not be to tough. Parts could be a problem though (probably a nonissue since AK's just dont seem to break). For purely lost in the woods and have to survive without worrying about 2 legged competition, .22lr would be a good choice - you can carry lots of ammo with out using up much space and if you can shoot and stalk (get within 50-75 yards of a deer and make a head shot) meat shouldnt be a problem. Basically there is no perfect rifle/ pistol for everything - its all a compromise.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:54:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 8:59:53 PM EDT by mrostov]
The AR is by far probably the most accurate off the shelf combat rifle in the world. The accuracy of an AR can often easily exceed your average 'hunting grade' bolt action deer rifle. Another reason the AR is the optimum survival rifle is the fact that in seconds you can break the gun open, take out the bolt carrier, drop in a .22LR adapter, and - Shazam! you now have a .22LR caliber rifle. The Ceiner kit firing .22LR ammo isn't match grade out of a regular AR with a 1:9 barrel, but I can make a soda can dance at 75m with one and it is more than good enough for hunting or the low noise decommissioning of a hostile featherless biped (gas port leading isn't a concern when you use copper plated .22 ammo). Probably the best all around, ideal, one gun 'survival' rifle is a 5.56mm AR-15 of some sort with a Ceiner or M261 .22LR adapter handy in a pouch or pocket, and (if it's legal in your State) one of those nifty Gemtech suppressors that are made to just socket rapidly on/off the muzzle of an AR-15/M-16/M-4 (you use their custom flash suppressor).
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:17:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 9:20:52 PM EDT by M-Forgery]
Originally Posted By MarineNP: If I could pick any gun in the world (besides my AR15s) to be the best all-around rifle, I would hands-down pick the HK G36. Some say that rifle is the most dependable rifle on the planet. However, like I said, my first choice would be an M-16 or M4 because it's easy to work on and you can easily add accessories.
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I just don't understand why the Brits let HK modify all those SA80's when they could have had a boatload of new G36's or M4's![whacko] Oh, for me it would be an M4, supressed of course.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:30:41 PM EDT
Survival has different responses do to the situation. IE are you lost in the woods? Which woods? Desert? SHTF senerio? Total collasped society? But back to your "Life After Doomsday" for me that would be a 12ga shotgun for small game hunting (shot), capable of big game (slugs), defense (buckshot) and fowl (shot). Yes, ammo is heavier but you can always find 12ga ammo anywhere. I would not worry about taking my CAR-15 for I've always lived on or near a military istallation my whole life and finding a battlefield pickup in a SHTF senerio wouldn't be a problem. More likely I'll be given my M4 and orders since I'm still active. Another good choice for a survival rifle in a wilderness role would be a combination gun ie. Savage 24 in either 12/20 ga and a rifle caliber suitable for the area ie. 308/223/30-30/22lr. De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 11:28:10 PM EDT
I bought an HK91 back in '79. It is a sweet rifle, and after several thousand rounds, it has every part in it that it came with. It shoots 2 MOA hot or cold. It's easy to clean and 100% reliable. Nothing has ever broken on that rifle. The only mods to it are tritium iron sights that are five years old and still bright. Magazines are selling for $5 apiece, and 7.62X51 surplus battle packs are dirt cheap. Surplus scopes calibrated to 7.62X51 are available and cheap too. Downsides compared to the AR15: It's heavy; ammo is heavy; magazines are 20 rounds, and it has a stout recoil. The only advantage over the AR-15 is that 160 Gr. bullet's energy at 500 yards.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:04:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 4:05:37 AM EDT by Slacker]
Single shot Stainless Bolt action (pull back to cock type) 22WMR w/open sights and a tang/peep sight. Can be suppressed with a 2 liter soda bottle, a hose clamp and some steel wool, is 100yd+ capable, ammo is lightweight and its a simple single shot. Second choice would be a NEF handi rifle in the same caliber.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:47:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 10:06:35 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
"survival rifle"? That's easy.... ...Ruger 10/22. Try shooting squirrels with a .308.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:57:37 AM EDT
Okay, now this is what I call a fair version of the AR vs AK debate.[:D] I'm applying this question worldwide. The 7.62x39 round is universal, you can find it anywhere, by the case, and cheap. The AK is almost indestructable, and men have grown weary trying to get one of those guns to jam. It has acceptable accuracy and metter penetration than the .223 cal. Magazines are dirt cheap and available all over the world; an important consideration with any autoloader. It is the preferred weapon of the bad guys, so I won't stick out like a sore thumb. I'll take the AK.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:25:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 5:26:34 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Originally Posted By Rabbit9: The 7.62x39 round is universal, you can find it anywhere, by the case, and cheap.
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Are you really planning on travelling the globe with your AK, during SHTF? That's a little odd, don't you think? Survival is a "local" thing. If AKs are plentiful in most of the world, but not in the US, it's a poor choice. ARs are more plentiful here. So is the ammo, mags, etc. (it sounds like someone's been watching Red Dawn too much [:)])
The AK is almost indestructable, and men have grown weary trying to get one of those guns to jam.
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Personally, I have no problem properly maintaining MY rifles. If you have put yourself into a situation, where you are constantly running, hiding, and have no time to maintain your AK.... ....You've really screwed up. Your "survival" skills (and judgement) need work.
It has acceptable accuracy and better penetration than the .223 cal.
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What survival situation are you imagining? Zombies?
Magazines are dirt cheap and available all over the world; an important consideration with any autoloader.
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Again, what possible "survival" situation are you imagining, where you travel the world??
It is the preferred weapon of the bad guys, so I won't stick out like a sore thumb.
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"bad guys"?? [whacko]
I'll take the AK.
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[:E] You're funny.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:12:11 AM EDT
I would also agree with the previous posts recommending a 12 ga. A shotgun can do it all from small game, birds, big game, dangerous game, and protection from other "survivalists". A 12 ga is probably the most destructive CQB weapon ever fielded and would definitely get my selection. All you need is a nice selection of shells and you have turned your 12 ga into a weapons platform. Karl
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:48:23 AM EDT
I know of some people who are preparing for 'bad times' and their primary long arm is the Ruger 10/22. Their logic is this: If there is no fighting in their area, then the 10/22 suffices for hunting and pest control. The guns and ammo don't cost much and you can carry and stockpile a zillion rounds of ammo for it. If there is fighting in the area, in order to fight the bad guys must bring the weapons to do so into your area. You then use the 10/22 to acquire better weapons.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:36:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 9:38:13 AM EDT by Phoenix_III]
...You then use the 10/22 to acquire better weapons.
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Or get killed in the process. SHTF you should have a best friend or relative that you KNOW knows their stuff and could help you... you need to be capable of CQB and long range, if engaging other humans... and in a collapsed society, you will get the animals (humans) to come and try and steal your possessions, ammo, house, wife, weapon, etc. .22, a shotgun, and a .223/.308 should make the list... but mind you you aren't going to have any firefights (well, with anyone half sane) where a .223 would be better (more ammo and faster follow up). You are going to get people moving at night, to just kill you with their .22, or whatever they have, and steal/rape your spoils... It's good to have a friend or group of friends, a central location, and then your own little society... not just on your own, trying to defend wife and kids... hopefully the mrs can shoot, but still... you need your boys... (friends) Also, if you don't stock pile ammo and mags (2000 rounds and mags to go with), or if you are FORCED from your location (WMD, etc, or duty to family/relocation very quickly because of fallout), you will need to re-acquire your supplies... I would not want to be stuck with a .303 or some queer (not easily found) calibers... .223 (rather, 5.56nato capable weapon), .308, and .22 and 12 gauge are the most popular...
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:44:02 AM EDT
Odds are, SHTF won't be as Hollywood as some of you make it out to be. Those who prepare for fighting off hoards of zombies and invading bikers will probably end up hungry. If you've allowed yourself to be in a situation where you NEED all that firepower, you're probably an idiot, and won't last long anyhow. Survival is about calm and deliberate planning. It's about avoiding injury and illness. These firefight fantasies are fun, but show a lack of realism.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:58:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:59:26 AM EDT
Springfield Armory M1A
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:41:51 AM EDT
Shotguns and pistols don't have the range. Bolt actions are to slow. A good dependable rifle that is accurate, easy to clean, easy to repair and easy to get ammo for is a must. A AR-15,G-36,FAL are the way to go. Like a few have said in America the AR-15 would be the best for just about all reasons. I would want to have night vision though. Nobody has mentioned night vision. When the shit hits the fan usually it is a night. If you are going to be attacked,looted,wife raped or whatever these things happen at night more often then in the day 10-1. Vertical grips, RAS,SIRS, lasers, lights, folding stocks, comfortable grips and many of the great looking add on's for the Ar-15 arn't near as important in a shtf scenario than night vision.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:47:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 11:48:56 AM EDT by ottergt]
My idea of "SHTF" is either: A) Natural Disaster; or B) Wide-spread Riots... Neither of which I would consider aas "farfetched" in the least. Law enforcement will be busy enough to restore general order...you can very likely be on your own for some time to protect yourself/family/home/business. Ask the folks in LA & Atlanta during the Rodney King riots, or survivors of tornados, hurricanes, floods. Best firearm for SHTF is the one you have and have ammo for, IMHO. Kinda hard to protect youself against a group of rioters/looters if all you have is a Louisville Slugger. Personal Anecdote: I was surfing some AR related website at work over lunch, when another coworker walked by & asked my cubicle-mate (and sort-of neighbor) if he was worried that I was looking at "Assault Weapons". My neighbor replied, "Nope! Makes me feel secure. I have a 12 gage and enough ammo to get to his house." --Otter
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:14:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 4gma: A good AK (not a SAR POS), while not as accurate (mine shoot 1.5-2.5 MOA vs. the AR's which at worst shoot 1 MOA)
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Sorry just had to respond to this post. You sir either don't have an AK, or are simply retarded. There is no way in hell your AK is going to shoot 1.5-2.5 MOA, not unless your idea of MOA is 30 or so yards. Hell, thats the same MOA that Armalite lists for expected accuracy for it's M15's. Try 5-6 MOA on a good day with match ammunition, or greater with the ammo everyone actually uses. I have an SLR-95, and if it doesnt shoot your 1.5 moa please let me know what is a "good" AK for me to get and achieve MOA results, Thanks![newbie]
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:55:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 1:58:24 PM EDT by glockdog]
After long thought I've decided your all just paranoid! Dont worry the leftist liberal democrats will create a social program much like the others that are abused to address the problem. All in the name of getting votes from chicks and minorities. So relax the government is working on the problem and you will be advised acordingly with increases in your taxes. You should recieve your GI surplus angle head flashlight, and a list of phone numbers to call in the mail several weeks after the tax increase takes affect. Edited for spelling but its still wrong Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:03:43 PM EDT
Thanks to all... for what it's worth, "Life After Doomsday" recommends the following as your basic survival arsenal, at least as of 20 years ago: - assault rifles: HK-91 (heavy), Armalite AR-180 (light) - pistol: Colt 1911 (in general, pistols are unreliable and underpowered, but indispensable in situations where a rifle is impractical, like when you are cleaning fallout off your roof) - shotgun: Remington 870 (for engaging multiple zombies and bikers... err, targets at close range)
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:29:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 4:41:45 PM EDT by mrostov]
In 'Life After Doomsday', Clayton relied heavily upon the advice of Mel Tappan and his book 'Survival Guns'. IMHO, 'Survival Guns' and the advice of Mel Tappan is not the best by a long shot. Mel trashed the AR to no end, vastly prefering the Mini-14 to it. He would also do things like recommend for a 'survival battery' having two different rifles of the same caliber but that use different, non-military mags (Mini-14, AR-180 - the original AR180, for some bizzare reason, used a slightly different mag than the AR-15). His idea of the 'optimum survival battery' was to simply buy out a gun store and keep it in your closet. As an example, for your preparations, contrary to what Mel Tappan said, you don't need 8 to 10 different pistols of varying calibers and models. As for the older 'survivalist' books, a far better and more practical book to get would be Ragnar Benson's, 'Living Off The Land in City and Country', which I think is still published by Paladin Press. It is an excellent book, especially as an intro for those newer to the subject. Ragnar Benson also has a much higher opinion of the AR-15, even having used one (a Colt SP1) to kill a bear.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:27:54 PM EDT
Also, in "The Complete Book of Survival," the author (Stahlberg) rates the AR-15 as "acceptable" for survival purposes, but I get the impression he's not excited about it. The .223 round might be too small and fast to kill larger animals reliably, but I'm sure it can help defend your meat locker against starving locals...
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:15:18 PM EDT
There's been several posts suggesting a 10/22 or other .22 caliber rifles. Why not grab your AR-15/M16 along with a Ciener kit and .223 and .22lr ammo? That way you've got decent self-defense and the ability to take either larger or smaller game. Plus you have the other advantages mentioned, light weight, proven ruggedness, and readily available parts and ammo, etc.
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