Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 5/18/2003 11:08:46 PM EDT
Okay, before you get your panties in a bunch, calm down.

I know the difference between a Drop in Auto Sear (DIAS) and a Registered Drop In Auto Sear (RDIAS).

What I'm curious about is....everyone knows a RDIAS is something like 2-3 thousand dollars, but I always see some guy always advertise in the Shotgun News DIAS for something like $300 bucks. He claims that they are pre-registred DIAS. How is it that he is able to sell them for such a low price? Also, legally speaking (we all know how efficent the ATF is in busting people they perceive as breaking the law) how is it then this guy has been selling these things for years and years?????

Don't say that he is a ATF plant, because one..if he is, that is considered entrapment, and a good lawyer can get you off on those grounds.

Second, I have heard from people I know that they have ordered and received said DIAS, and they have had it for years with no problems from the ATF or such.

So how is this guy getting away with selling those DIAS, and how is he been doing it for years?
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:41:27 PM EDT
Anyone can buy and own a DIAS you just cant own an AR15 at the same time.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 12:30:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 12:45:58 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
First you get the good lawyer and then you buy the unregistered auto sear. Should be simple for you 50Freak. (What thought(?) process do you use ?? Where do you people come from ??) All us other dumb asses spend $2K - $3K but you, 50Freak, need to only spend $300. You always "know people who...... ." Well if you "know people who...... " why are you posting this idiocy on this board ?? Go ask the "people who". [b]HELLO - anybody home ??[/b] Edited to note: I see you, the 50Freak are from CA where you can't even legally own an AR-15 !! [:X*]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 12:57:19 AM EDT
Ummmm....it appears the 50Freak has left the board. Perhaps we shall be enlightened tomorrow - maybe even later this day.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:29:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 1:40:48 AM EDT by 50Freak]
Actually 5subslr5, yes I am from California, but you are wrong, as I do own a couple of ARs, along with a couple of FALs, a benelli M3, two 50 bmgs, a couple of sniper rigs, and a bunch of other cool toys. They are all grandfathered in as I bought them a while back. And guess what, I even have a CCW. California is not limited to a handfull of guys shooting bolt actions, there are plenty of us that who still have the cool black guns. Unfortunatley liberal tree huggers outnumber us, but hopefully that will change within the next few years. I do however feel sorry for those just starting to collect. They are pretty much resigned to Mini-14s and M1As. As for getting a lawyer, I work in a 800 plus international law firm, so getting a lawyer won't be a problem for me. Why all this hostility? What did I do to you? I asked a valid question. We all know legally there are many rights that we are entitled too, but are denied by our government. The problem is that not enough of us are willing to bring up a legal challenge to these denial of rights. Also with so many gun laws on the books, how many are actually enforced? I have been shooting for almost two decades now and have yet to approached to see if I had US compliant parts in my FALs or if the muzzle brake on my ARs are just screwed in or pinned. If your so afraid of seeking information (which is still legal last time I checked) then please stop throwing insults my way and leave this thread and allow others to answer. Getting back to my question I have seen these DIAS at a couple of gun shows (no not in kali) along with other auto parts (bolts, sears etc). I personally have not bought any as I don't have a class 3 and hence they are useless to me. But I have seen people buy them, and guess what, there were no ATF guns jumping on them as soon as they left the show. So again other than fear factor, why is it that guy on Shotgun News can still sell those DIAS for such a low price? Obviously they are legal as he is not having his anus enlarged in prison.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:56:44 AM EDT
When I was first considering getting into full-auto weapons a few years ago, a close and knowledgeable friend explained the Shotgun News Ad as one of his first lessons. His explanation worked for me but likely would not work for you. However, you, the 50Freak already "know people who......." and have access to 800 lawyers. Be my guest - buy a couple. Since you're so well connected, I'm assuming you know the cost of mounting a defense against a determined Federal Prosecutor and have that covered. Let's see you can save ($2700 max) by purchasing the unregistered auto sear. That $2700 will cover your defense lawyers - right ?? Then there's all that work you miss and hours you can't bill while you 'assist' in your defense. Those economics work well for you ??
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 2:08:54 AM EDT
No where in this thread did I mention I was going to buy one. I am very familiar with the laws governing my state. Even having a DIAS and an AR in the same house are considered by the ATF as having a machine gun. Only those very very well connected (mostly movie companies) can get a class 3 here in Cali, I posted a valid question and still waiting for an answer. And you are correct, I could not bill any time fighting a machine gun charge, and hence it isn't worth it to me. But at the same time, I would have no hesitation in fighting an illegal law.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 2:15:07 AM EDT
50 Freak, Did you not read my reply? HE CAN SELL THEM SO CHEAP BECAUSE THEY ARE LEGAL TO BUY AND SELL. You simply cannot ALSO have an AR15 at the same time. What do you not understand about this? Can you buy and sell full auto parts? YES Can you do this while owning an AR15? NO Do you get it now? Its not that hard to understand. Those items are only illegal if you own an AR15 and if you dont you can buy or sell all the full auto parts and DIAS you want. Get em by the bucket full. As soon as you purchase an AR it is a crime to possess them. Get it? And as far as the ATF not grabbing guys as they walk out the door... why would they? ITS NOT A CRIME TO BUY OR SELL OR OWN THEM.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 2:22:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 50Freak: No where in this thread did I mention I was going to buy one. I am very familiar with the laws governing my state. Even having a DIAS and an AR in the same house are considered by the ATF as having a machine gun. Only those very very well connected (mostly movie companies) can get a class 3 here in Cali, I posted a valid question and still waiting for an answer. And you are correct, I could not bill any time fighting a machine gun charge, and hence it isn't worth it to me. But at the same time, I would have no hesitation in fighting an illegal law.
View Quote
Of course you would never be the purchaser but you would defend such purchaser all in the name of "....fighting an illegal law" of course. No charge for the defense - what's that Italian term- Sonny Bono ?? Letter from managing partner confirming ?? (There is no Federal Law stating you must have a Class III license to own a machine gun.) [b]You have no question to answer. Go back and work on a new script and I'll see you again on the board.[/b]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 2:22:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 2:29:02 AM EDT by 50Freak]
Sorry, guess I missed that part, It's past 3 in the morning right now and I'm getting a little tired. "working on a new script"???? I understand not wanting to give any trolls ammo to attack us later, but lets not see enemies where there is just friends. You can check on my name under FALFILES, and HighRoad (50 Freak) or Biggerhammer (Club Serbu) and other like boards. You will see I have been a gun freak for many many years. But then again I could just be Diane Feinstein looking for a date. See ya on the boards
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 3:38:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 50Freak: 1. And guess what, I even have a CCW. 2. California is not limited to a handfull of guys shooting bolt actions, there are plenty of us that who still have the cool black guns.
View Quote
1. Getting/having CCW in CA? C'mon, that's like discovering the Loch Ness Monster. [;)] 2. True. There are a bunch of "ghettofied thugs" robbing liquor stores and mugging people. There's local law enforcement of course. Oh yes, let's not forget the North Cali Marajuana Militia that employs land mines, punji sticks, & all sorts of other illegal shit to keep their crop safe. I really feel terrible for a law abiding citizen in Kalifornia that wants to defend himself.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 3:48:12 AM EDT
I kind of researched this topic a while back when I was looking into full-auto. I believe that the $300.00 auto sear you are talking about is useless. Legally, you can not do anything with it. In the eyes of the law, you are not even supposed to own it and an AR-15 at the same time. Sure, it will fit and function fine, but you can never register it legally. I am pretty sure about this, but if someone who knows more can correct me, please do so.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 3:56:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:38:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 4:39:48 AM EDT by 50Freak]
Actually getting a CCW in Cali isn't that hard. Its pretty impossible only if you live in SF or LA, apparently there they only give CCWs to crooked politicians (Diane Swinestein) or unpatriotic felons (Sean Penn). But in the rest of the state, especially the further away you get from the cities, it is very possible. You just have to jump through a few more hoops than the other "shall issue" states. You know its pretty easy to get illegal weapons here, only if you are a gang banger or drug pusher. But if your a law abiding citizen, forget it. Pretty screwed up huh. Thank god, I saw the writing on the wall and pretty much got everything I wanted before all the bans. Though I do lust after a semi-auto Barret every now and then.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:28:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: WombRaider is correct. Legal to buy and sell. An 07 FFL/SOT can register it as post may sample but why bother? He can make it for $75. Whoever thinks a RDIAS is "only" $3000 is a little behind! That was true a year or two ago but is way low these days. They no bring about the same as a registered receiver, $4500 and up. You can be sure ATF DOES spy on anybody that buys one, however!!
View Quote
God, so much misinformation. First, current prices for a RDIAS are in the $6500. range. I've even seen them advertised at $7k lately. Personally, I wouldn't sell mine for less than $8k because once the Shrike hits the street, it's only going to get worse. Second, BATF's position is that the pre-81 are legal to own, but only in the absence of an AR15. If you own an AR15 AND a DIAS, BATF was of the opinion you had an unregistered MG. The 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals corrected BATF on this in US v. CAsh. Judge Easterbrook pointed out that BATF does NOT have the legal authority under the NFA to "grandfather" one class of DIAS's based merely upon their date of manufacture. The BATF ruling (81-4) that makes that distinction is now void in the 5th Circuit and of dubious value elsewhere. Third, if you do choose to possess a "pre-81" DIAS, you can still find yourself taking a long vaccation in club fed, [i]even if you don't own or possess an AR15[/i]. Even according to BATF's more lenient pre-Cash rule (which as I noted above is on quite shaky ground), any unregistered DIAS made after 1981 was an unregistered MG. Thus, if you cannot conclusively prove the DIAS was made prior to 1981 you could be easily convicted. How much evidence do you have that DIAS in SGN was made prior to 1981? A xeroxed letter the seller provides to everyone he sells to? Good luck. Fourth, the entrapment defense will never get you off the hook for buying a DIAS to install in your AR15. I'm assuming you make copies or coffee in that law firm, because if you were a lawyer you should know that. You can also buy all the full auto AK parts and drilling fixtures you want out of SGN, but if you convert your MAK90 and then plead entrapment, you'd best sell off your guns and stock up on cigarettes and vaseline.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:48:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 5:51:59 AM EDT by 50Freak]
I make a hell of a cup of coffee, I'll have you know. boy, you guys are pretty hostile here in AR15.com. I disagree on the validity of such a case. Given the fact that the seller provides a "pre81 letter" stating the DIAS is legit (if the seller was an LEO), I think I would have a pretty darn good entrapment case. Heck if they can effectively argue that OJ was innocent, I would place bets on the entrapment charge being dropped. And no where in this entire thread did I state I wanted to put a DIAS in my AR, I asked the difference between a RDIAS and the SGN DIAS. Taking your Mak90 scenario, the ads that SGN display 99.9% of the time state that it is a NFA product. Hence no entrapment defense there if the nice gentlemen dressed in black comes kicking in your door. Even a 1st year prosecuter can effectively argue Intent.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:02:55 AM EDT
50 - What you forget is that the ads for the DIAS in SGN also mention the NFA, so you are on notice. Additionally, you need M16 parts to make it work, so right there, you'd be screwed. Next, you obviously don't understand the required intent (mens rea) to be convicted. Its not that much - basically, if you know you are making a full auto, you have "intent". Its not about what you mistakenly thought the law is/was.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:32:05 AM EDT
Haven't seen one of those SGN ads for a while. Actually haven't seen a SGN for a while....it just pisses me off. Reminds me how much I hate the hypocritical politics that govern this state. So if that is true about the SGN DIAS stating it is a NFA part then my case would pretty much be up sh*t creek. As the NFA notice would as you said "put me on notice" and hence fulfill both requirements of Intent (actus reus and mens rea). Anyways, this is definitely going off on a tangent now. Thanks for clearing up the RDIAS vs DIAS question.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:02:36 AM EDT
Isnt there a legal forum? In the future, I think folks who have legal questions will more easily find folks who know the specifics about legality there.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:10:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: Isnt there a legal forum? In the future, I think folks who have legal questions will more easily find folks who know the specifics about legality there.
View Quote
Sending [b]ALL[/b]questions such as this to the Legal Forum would truly be a dream come true !!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:29:29 AM EDT
I have no power to move topics, just lock or tac them. If I could, this one would have taken a detour long ago.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:41:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 7:43:13 AM EDT by shotar]
50: You need to understand that we are not particularly hostile people and certainly not unfriendly. We are however law abiding people who take our hobby seriously enough that we don't want to see it jeapordized by even the hint of illegality. In the past several days this subject has come up several times. This has included people writing that they would blatently violate the law and asking how to information on making illegal weapons. We will not be party to that sort of thing here. I agree that hostility and name calling is unnecessary. I hope however that you and others will understand that those here will not be complicitous in criminal activity either through word or deed.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:10:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 8:14:15 AM EDT by 50Freak]
Shotar, Thanks for the kind words, I did do a search for "DIAS" and "RDIAS" under the search option and did not really come up with anything. Hence I posted the question. I'm not really very knowledgeable about ARs, as I've always had a preference for larger calibers, with FALs and 50's being my forte. And you can see I've been a member of AR15.com for a long time. I usually just don't post very often. I am however not blind to the times we live in and the necessity of not feeding trolls. Trust me, after living in Cali almost all of my life, I do understand how some posters can be anti-gunners looking for fuel for the fire. But still that is no reason to jump down someone's throat for asking questions. Last time I checked information was still legal here in the US. But anyone who would openly post that they are going to break a law really is stupid in my book. I invite anyone to check this entire thread and see once where I stated I would disobey the law. You will find that none exists. Either way, guess I will be more careful as to what I post in the future. I do however suggest maybe we should be a little more mindful of our manners to other peoples posts. I honestly felt as if I was on the defensive from moment one. Maybe I'm just really sensitive. Comes from living in Cali. Think I'm going to go hug a tree now.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:23:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: 50: You need to understand that we are not particularly hostile people and certainly not unfriendly. We are however law abiding people who take our hobby seriously enough that we don't want to see it jeapordized by even the hint of illegality. In the past several days this subject has come up several times. This has included people writing that they would blatently violate the law and asking how to information on making illegal weapons. We will not be party to that sort of thing here. I agree that hostility and name calling is unnecessary. I hope however that you and others will understand that those here will not be complicitous in criminal activity either through word or deed.
View Quote
Well and truly said.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 12:39:16 PM EDT
50, Please visit my little website... [url]http://quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html[/url] This has quite a bit of info on what the DIAS is, how it works, and at the end there is a description that helps describe the difference between a registered, pre-81, and illegal DIAS. As stated a pre-81 is just as illegal as a post-81 if you own an AR-10 or AR-15 or anything similar where the DIAS could possibly be used. In answer to another question, YES, AR15.com has it's days where the members feel like going on the attack... I agree that it looks to me like all you did was ask a perfectlt LEGIT question and it has been asked a hundred times... Sometimes the pack will give you an answer, other times they will bite your head off.... As for the question on how they still sell these, I actually called the ATF and had a long talk with an agent in my area. He confirmed that the ATF can not do anything about these people selling these and he even indicated that they can't do much about the seller telling people that "THIS PLUS A COUPLE M-16 PARTS WHICH WE CAN SUPPLY WILL TURN YOUR AR-15 TO A SELECTIVE FIRE MACHINE GUN" [size=6]BUT[/size=6] If you buy one, and you have an AR-15 and you get caught... YOU ARE screwed and you don't need any M-16 parts that would even allow you to use it! Some of these places selling are STINGS whle others are charing you a lot of money for a paperweight that if you screw up by owning it with the wrong gun could cost you!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:48:38 PM EDT
Lighten up people.The man asked a valid question in a respectful manner.If you don,t like the question ,don,t answer,beat,s being hostile.DAMMM i,d hate to bump into yyou lot on a dark street.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:47:23 PM EDT
Gentleman, thank you for the support. I thought I was just being overly sensitive. sniff sniff But seriously I have no intention of getting a DIAS. I pretty much follow the rules to the letter of the law. Got to much to lose to being playing around with illegal DIAS stuff. I just always wondered how that SGN guy was getting away with what he is doing. Please do know that I did a search on this this matter before posting the question. Maybe I did it wrong but AR15.com was not bring up very much info. Over on FALfiles, some people get pretty touchy whenever some newbie posts a question about the auto sears that sometimes comes with the kits or is sold at a show. Its sad to see the people on the boards so afraid of sharing information for fear of prosecution or liability. But I do understand the times when live in. And wow, your local ATF guy actually took time to answer a question for you? About 10 years ago, I called them to ask about the process for getting a Class 3 license. The ATF guy pretty much laughted in my face and said I had a better chance winning the lottery a couple of times in a row. Pretty sad huh....Sometimes I hate this state.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:05:47 PM EDT
One of the problems is that there are some guys that sit waiting in their corners waiting to slam California that they will take any opportunity to do so. Clearly you set some off. Whaddaya wanna bet this will too?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:41:08 PM EDT
That is very true, some people make it their mission in life to remind everyone just how much California sucks. They take every possible opportunity to belittle those of us that are still stuck in Cali... Notice that not much is said about NY or Hawaii, or even Washington DC. And all these places have laws just as strict as Cali when it come in regards to guns. I hate to admit it, but sometimes somethings are more important than guns....(did I just say that????) Trust me, I want to leave Cali and move to a more free state, but that would mean leaving all my lifelong friends and family. I'm just not willing to make that type of move especially when I'm pretty satisfied with the toys I currently have. I just feel sorry for all the people that are just starting this gun addition in Cali.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:46:57 AM EDT
Well, to be honest with my website and the fact that at the time I owned a legal Form 4 registered AR-15 conversion (Full Auto) and I am quite active on the web. I am way too high of a profile to do anything illegal as all I need to do is look at my webpage statistics and see all of the .gov & .mil and other domain visitors that have been to my website. If you are not doing anything that is illegal, the best place to go for info is the people that that should know the answers. Even then, I find the ATF to be full of OPPINIONS that have no basis in the law! I do enjoy reading up on a particular topic and challanging just about anybody and if you do it in a friendly way most ATF agents are really great guys just trying to make a living. Some get into the field because they like guns, others do it because they want to serve and protect. I don't have a problem with that and I respect them for doing something that makes them so unpopular with guys that blame them for the laws that the ATF didn't create and much of the pressure comes from the G-ment who over sees the work they do. I have been hanging out at FALFILES and I agree that those guys are not any better and that the responses you will get there are even worse. Hell, someone asked how a selective fire FAL worked and I posed a description with some pics and details. I wanted to save my post as it took me a fair amount of time to put it together and the mod deleted it within a couple minutes! It really pissed me off as I lost all the work I did getting the details down and the details were no more specific than on my DIAS page! We live in a free country where the freedom of speech used to mean something. These days, the government doesn't need to tell you not to talk about historicaly significant guns and how they work... the Internet community will do it for them! Perhaps one of these days the government will ban gas burning cars and the internet community will tell your "NO.. YOU CAN'T OWN A GAS CAR... AND NO, I WILL NOT TELL YOU HOW THEY WORKED... YOU ARE EVIL FOR ASKING... THE BATFEG (G = GAS) IS GOING TO GET YOU AS THEY WATCH THE WEB LOOKING FOR PEOPLE INTENT TO CONVERT THEIR PALM OIL CARS TO WORK WITH GAS!" When I get a chance I will rewrite the discussion on how a full auto fal works but this time I will post the information on my website. Again, shame on people that probably don't know how these things work for hiding under their tin foil hats!
Top Top