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Posted: 5/13/2003 8:00:22 PM EDT
Does anyone out there know the truth regarding FN parts and their availability to the public and/or other ligitimate manufacturers? I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to believe anymore!

On the same subject, who manufactures an A2 upper that carries the raised identification of the crosshairs in circle (like NATO) along with the letters AR on the right side of the carry handle just forward of the rear sight base?

TIA
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:33:03 PM EDT
As far as I know there are NO real FN M16 parts available for civilian purchase. Either way you should NOT USE ANY M16 parts when constructing an AR-15. Im not going to go into tecnicalitys but if you have more than 1 M16 part in your gun it is a machine gun and illegal. Dont know who makes that upper but it probably aint a FN if thats what your wondering.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:58:53 PM EDT
Wasn't thinking M16 parts at all! AFAIK the bolt carrier and fire control parts are the only things that are found in the M16 that make it a 'machine gun'. I was talkin' everything else, with the probable exception of the lower. Someone who should know once told me that there were only two companies that forged AR/M16 uppers - FN and Maremont. I haven't been able to verify that. Who uses the NATO cross & circle with the letters AR designation?
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 9:08:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Wasn't thinking M16 parts at all! AFAIK the bolt carrier and fire control parts are the only things that are found in the M16 that make it a 'machine gun'. I was talkin' everything else, with the probable exception of the lower. Someone who should know once told me that there were only two companies that forged AR/M16 uppers - FN and Maremont. I haven't been able to verify that. Who uses the NATO cross & circle with the letters AR designation?
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There are several companies that come to mind that forge or have forged AR uppers: Alcoa, Anchor Harvey, Cardinal, Continental Machine and Tool, Diemaco, Kaiser, just to name a few. IIRC, I believe someone mentioned getting a flattop upper receiver with these markings from Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 3:35:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Does anyone out there know the truth regarding FN parts and their availability to the public and/or other ligitimate manufacturers? I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to believe anymore! TIA
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Take it for what it's worth... I tend to listen to Forest and I personally won't purchase from anyone claiming 'FN' anything... [url]groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/theseriousar.msnw[/url]
OK so you already have an AR and want to upgrade it to make it more reliable. First lets talk about part suppliers. Many are indicating the parts they get are ‘FN’ Manufactured (they hold the current M16A2 contract for the US Army). BEWARE OF ANYONE SELLING “FN” PARTS/BARRELS/RECEIVERS – AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE. FN is prohibited from selling rifles or parts on the commercial market. FN can not legally produce AR-15s, so all their fire control parts are M16A2 (thus not legal in a typical AR-15). Any parts that are ‘truly’ FN produced were either stolen, or were factory rejects that were sold as scrap. Buying stolen item is never a good idea, and using what may be factory rejects isn’t smart either. Do you want to bet you life that ‘FN’ barrel you bought doesn’t have some sort of flaw in the steel? Another point to consider. Most AR parts are not marked as to the manufacturer, many shady dealers sell their parts as ‘FN’ knowing no right minded person will buy ‘factory seconds’ or ‘ cheap imported parts’. A word to the wise – stick with the big three for parts.
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Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:26:31 AM EDT
OK, so it's claimed that FN is prohibited from selling parts on the 'commercial market'. Does this also mean that they cannot or do not sell parts and/or unfinished forgings to other FFL manufacturers? Are unmachined forgings going out to some of our domestic AR manufacturers, getting the finish work done by them, and then being assembled into complete rifles, uppers, and lowers for retail sale? If that is so, then to take this one step further, could overruns of these parts wind up being sold as spares on the retail and wholesale markets? Remember that just like a brand new automobile, an AR would bring several times its cost if sold as new uninstalled seperate parts (at retail pricing). If there are FN components in AR's being legally manufactured and sold on the retail market, then why the secrecy? I don't trust the French anyway! And for those that live by the letter of what they read on a website, would you be shocked to find out that parts (an upper forging for example) that came from the manufacturer of your (Armalite for example) originated at FN? Take this one step further - would you be surprised to find out that companies that are claiming to sell rifles made with FN parts are telling the truth? Are they purchasing unfinished FN parts and contracting out the finish work, then selling the completed rifle or component on the civilian market? I'm not posting these questions just to be a pain in the ass! I'd really like to find out what the truth is. I don't believe that if a part is made by FN it's better or more valuable than an equivalent part manufactured by someone else. I'd just like to get to the bottom of it, once and for all!
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:31:53 AM EDT
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=141117[/url] Mike
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 9:11:31 AM EDT
A while back Tweak (one of the moderator's here, and over all AR Guru (both on AR15-L and MD-AR15.com) actually sent FN a letter and asked them about the parts. FN responded and the letter is in the File area of AR15-L@yahoogroups.com. Just sign up as a member to the e-mail list (you don't even have to get the e-mail as it can be read online), and you can read the correspondance. BTW I did post FN comments here and they indicated they do not sell to anyone other than the .MIL types. Now there are companies that do get forgings and sometimes machined parts from some of the same vendors that FN does. These still are not FN parts contrary to many 'bottom feeder' claims - FN has never taken possession of the part nor have they machined the forgings, or even done their in-house Quality Inspection. The interesting thing is the vendors that do supply FN are supposed to be bound by a confidentiality agreement and are not supposed to tell the public they make parts for FN. So either FN's Vendor's don't care (or don't realize) about a legal agreement they signed onto (perfectly possible with the smaller shops), or the guys you are buying your parts from don't know and are just saying the parts are FN because that helps them sell the parts. Remember though FN sells no AR-15s so there are no 'FN' fire control parts that should be used in AR-15s, same with bolt carriers. FN barrels should be so marked, should be 'pre ban style', 20" long, A2 profile (narrow under the handguards), and chrome lined. However since FN doesn't sell to the public that means these barrels were either stolen (from the company by employees, from the armory by soldiers, or from UPS/FedEx by their employees) or they are factory rejects that were sold as scrap. The question is are you a betting man?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 9:19:10 AM EDT
My understanding is that FN contracts out certain operations in their manufacture of M16 rifles. One of these operations is the upper receiver. It is possible if not probable, that the contractor who makes the uppers for FN also makes them genericaly. This doesn't necessarily make them seconds or rejects. To make them marketable the tag gets attached that these are made by the same contractor who make FN uppers. As the story gets passed from wholesaler to distributer to retailer it changes to FN contractor uppers, to FN contract uppers, to FN uppers. Of course, the more obstification, the more likely that any kind of upper can be passed off as an "FN upper."
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:47:50 AM EDT
Do be sure to distinguish between those who claim plainly that they have FN parts, and those who have FN contract parts. Latter groups, such as JT Distributing, distribute parts from FN suppliers, of high quality.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:47:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By monkeyman: It is possible if not probable, that the contractor who makes the uppers for FN also makes them genericaly. This doesn't necessarily make them seconds or rejects.
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Correct but that also means they are not FN parts. They are 'contractor' parts - there is a BIG difference.
To make them marketable the tag gets attached that these are made by the same contractor who make FN uppers. As the story gets passed from wholesaler to distributer to retailer it changes to FN contractor uppers, to FN contract uppers, to FN uppers.
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That may or may not be the case. I can see that happening in some cases, but dealers SHOULD know bettter by now. I have found cases of obviously inferior product being sold as "FN".
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:55:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: OK, so it's claimed that FN is prohibited from selling parts on the 'commercial market'. Does this also mean that they cannot or do not sell parts and/or unfinished forgings to other FFL manufacturers? Are unmachined forgings going out to some of our domestic AR manufacturers, getting the finish work done by them, and then being assembled into complete rifles, uppers, and lowers for retail sale? If that is so, then to take this one step further, could overruns of these parts wind up being sold as spares on the retail and wholesale markets? Remember that just like a brand new automobile, an AR would bring several times its cost if sold as new uninstalled seperate parts (at retail pricing). If there are FN components in AR's being legally manufactured and sold on the retail market, then why the secrecy? I don't trust the French anyway! And for those that live by the letter of what they read on a website, would you be shocked to find out that parts (an upper forging for example) that came from the manufacturer of your (Armalite for example) originated at FN? Take this one step further - would you be surprised to find out that companies that are claiming to sell rifles made with FN parts are telling the truth? Are they purchasing unfinished FN parts and contracting out the finish work, then selling the completed rifle or component on the civilian market? I'm not posting these questions just to be a pain in the ass! I'd really like to find out what the truth is. I don't believe that if a part is made by FN it's better or more valuable than an equivalent part manufactured by someone else. I'd just like to get to the bottom of it, once and for all!
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If I understand your post, you are saying that FN produces its' own raw forgings, something that Colt never did, nor any other manufacturer of ARs to my knowledge. Where did you come by this information? And even if true, how would a raw forging produced by FN become an FN product, if the forging was turned into a reciever by someone else---any more than an Anchor Harvey forging turned into a finished upper by Rock River is anything other than a Rock River product? What we know for sure is that FN does not sell any parts that it has produced to the civilian market; PERIOD. So any part being sold as an FN product either isn't, or it was stolen; or possibly scrapped by FN as junk. Why is this hard to understand?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:56:10 AM EDT
It's funny: I've seen some of the exact same forger marks on M16A2's as I have on my Bushy and my J&T rifle. Just an observation...
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:04:31 AM EDT
I have an A1 barrel marked "FNMI MP CHROME BORE" in the usual place. It's brand new. Are you saying that it's a second?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:35:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 12:10:54 PM EDT by notack]
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=141117[/url] Mike
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All the answers are provided in the link from "mr_wilson" [red]and no, there not "stolen","rejects",or "scrap"[/red][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:36:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: It's brand new. Are you saying that it's a second?
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Please re-read
However since FN doesn't sell to the public that means these barrels were either stolen ... or they are factory rejects that were sold as scrap.
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Ya gots two options there.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:39:23 AM EDT
Shamayim, What's wrong, did I hit on a sore spot. Take it easy - remember your blood pressure! As to your questions: "How do you know?" I don't know, that's why I'm here questioning the conventional wisdom. "...how would a raw forging produced by FN become an FN product?" Easy. "produced by" = "product". That's plain English. "...FN does not sell.....to the civilian market." Are you at all familiar with the way Remington "LE only" guns and parts get into civilian hands? I am! How do I know "for sure"? Actually, I don't know "for sure" or otherwise. My question to you is - how do YOU know for sure? If your knowledge only comes in the form of a letter from FN, did you also buy stock in Enron? Now tell me what's so hard for YOU to understand. Guys, Please help me here! Did I unknowingly dare to throw some doubt upon a sacred cow? I thought that this forum was meant for questions and friendly debate. Tell me that I'm not wrong. One of my original questions still goes unanswered. Who produced an A2 upper with the raised designation - NATO circle/cross A B ? It came on a NIB Eagle Arms by ArmaLite M15A2 rifle that I purchased about six weeks ago. I watched as in came off the UPS truck and saw the box as it was first opened by the dealer. I suspect that the code denotes FN, and I also suspect that Bushmaster might also use some of these. But, unlike others on this site, I DON'T KNOW - FOR SURE ;-)
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:48:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: It's brand new. Are you saying that it's a second?
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Please re-read
However since FN doesn't sell to the public that means these barrels were either stolen ... or they are factory rejects that were sold as scrap.
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Ya gots two options there.
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I'd prefer 'stolen'[:D] It's perfectly straight and totally in spec as far as I can gauge. Hm.. Oh well. It appears to be a good barrel.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 12:17:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Shamayim, What's wrong, did I hit on a sore spot. Take it easy - remember your blood pressure! As to your questions: "How do you know?" I don't know, that's why I'm here questioning the conventional wisdom. "...how would a raw forging produced by FN become an FN product?" Easy. "produced by" = "product". That's plain English. "...FN does not sell.....to the civilian market." Are you at all familiar with the way Remington "LE only" guns and parts get into civilian hands? I am! How do I know "for sure"? Actually, I don't know "for sure" or otherwise. My question to you is - how do YOU know for sure? If your knowledge only comes in the form of a letter from FN, did you also buy stock in Enron? Now tell me what's so hard for YOU to understand. Guys, Please help me here! Did I unknowingly dare to throw some doubt upon a sacred cow? I thought that this forum was meant for questions and friendly debate. Tell me that I'm not wrong.
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My blood pressure's fine, sport. It's my patience that's wearing thin. 1)You've produced no evidence that FN, unlike all the other makers of AR and M16 parts, does its' own raw forging. 2)Using your implied reasoning that the maker of the raw forging is the maker of the finished product, then my two uppers purchesed from Rock River are actually Anchor Harvet upper, and my Colt sourced upper with the C K mark is really a Kaiser upper. 3) What discussion are you talking about? You came on site asking two questions. One was answered, the other wasn't; I assume because nobody had the answer. Rather than take the answer you got, from folks who have reasonably complete information, and saying "thanks for the info, guys" you come up with some cockamamie scenario to prove some point, or advance some agenda. Whatsamatter bubbie; did ya get scammed on a fake FN upper deal?[:D] And no, I didn't buy stock in Enron, or anywhere else. That's just legalized gambling, and I find gambling morally repugnant, and degrading to the human spirit [:D]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 1:55:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Does anyone out there know the truth regarding FN parts and their availability to the public and/or other ligitimate manufacturers? I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to believe anymore! On the same subject, who manufactures an A2 upper that carries the raised identification of the crosshairs in circle (like NATO) along with the letters AR on the right side of the carry handle just forward of the rear sight base? Here is what you need to know. FN is a manufacturer in Belguim. The rifle is a FAL or in english LAR Light Automatic Rifle. You can buy complete FN FAL parts kits for around $150. Don't do it. Buy a Steyr Fal parts kit from DSA and buy nothing but a DSA upper receiver. They will also headspace and barrel for you and solder on muzzle brake. I went to the Entreprise site the other day and almost crapped myself as they have a picture of a guy barreling up a receiver with the receiver wrench in a vise and an adjustable wrench on the barrel, you will seen this done by people on websites who also use 80 grit sanding discs to remove part of the barrel shoulder when their cheap receiver doesn't time right, stay away from these FAL butchers. Also, DO NOT weld a muzzle brake on with a MAP gas torch, this will not only burn off the finish it will create soft spots in the barrel. DSA has an infusion machine that works like an oven direct from Steyr of Austria. Stay away from Entreprise, Hesse, Armscorp their stuff is made in a cave by a guy with a rock. DSA all the way. Warning....once you shoot a real FAL your AR-15 will seem completely irrelevent. You need to include 7 US parts to assemble the rifle to be legal. If you cheap out and buy an FN kit or lower, you will spend hours and hours poishing the sear down and the safety selector as all DSA parts are made to exact Steyr blueprints. DSA will tell you their trigger, hammer, sear set will drop right in an FN G1....but they don't. They do drop right into the Steyr. Also, ditch the full auto selector and replace with DSA semi auto selector and throw the de-milled receiver in the garbage, this is where the full-auto safety sear and ejector block are. If you want to do some long hard time as someones bitch, then have machine gun parts in your house, otherwise in the garbage before you get the receiver. The Steyr is a nice finished rifle with a hammer forged barrel (although using a used barrel is just dumb to me) The German FN G1's kickin' around were sold to the Germans after WW2 for their internal police work then sold to Turkey and they look like they were used as wheel chocks and shovels. When FN refused to grant Germany the contract to build the FAL themselves, as the Belgians were still a bit miffed with Germany in the 50's Germany went to Spain and got the contract to build the CETME which is known as the HKG3 if you ask me, they are both garbage. The FAL is the best rifle ever made. The M1A is great but the result of US Military arrogance and politics. John Browning designed the Fal and it is hands down the best rifle ever made. www.dsarms.com DSA is the only way to go PS be careful with Imbel receivers. The receiver is the regulated part and I have heard rumors that ATF has been sniffing around looking for pre-ban Imbel's being built. Don't be cheap and stupid and go to jail and don't buy junk. Hope this helps. Welcome to the world of Men's rifles. www.fnfal.com TIA
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