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Posted: 5/11/2003 7:59:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 4:56:19 PM EDT by blueshockey]

I just put together the aimpoint setup. ARMS 39, 22m68 with the comp ml2 aimpoint. I've been reading where if you look through the rear iron sight you should adjust the aimpoint to where the red dot is sitting on top of the front post. I cannot for the life of me adjust the aimpoint to where I can get a visual while looking through the rear sight. Obviously I can see the dot fine looking through the scope naturally. Why can't I get the dot into the picture while using both iron sights? I've adjusted both screws to almost both their limits and back and still no red dot. What am I doing wrong?
Thanks for your help.

*my image server is currently down...
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 8:38:25 AM EDT
Blue, I'm not sure about that. Not making sense to me. If you WERE able to put the dot on top of the front iron site, that would make ME believe that you would in essance be shooting downward when using the aimpoint because of the aimpoint being a few inches higher than the iron sights. I would do some checking on that on their website and if all else fails, give them a call tomorrow. Maybe they can explain it better unless someone else on the board has an idea or has delt with it in the past. Good luck, let us know the outcome. John
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 8:59:06 AM EDT
Your Aimpoint looks to be sitting high,the bottom edge in line with the sights.No spacers ?If you have a spacer tak it out.Silly but the mount is down in the grooves? Not sitting on top right?Any body else?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 9:04:30 AM EDT
no spacer, just using the arms 39 and 22m68 mount. aimpoint working fine with looking it through it naturally, but when you use both sights, forget about it. still researching. thanks...
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:51:06 PM EDT
Looking at your posted picture, your sight line from the rear iron to front iron appears to run along the bottom of the aim point tube. To check this, line up a straight edge with the front and rear sights and see where the straight edge aligns with the optic tube. Then you go from there. I had the same problem and ended up changing my sight mount to one that went closer to the hand guard. CRTC makes a sight mount that has adjustable elevation to allow for indexing the optical and iron sights. You my even have to go with the Fobus M-33 handguard with the rail built in or some similar system to get the optics low enough.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 7:31:52 PM EDT
There is nothing wrong with your setup. The Aimpoint dot is NOT suppose to line up with your iron sites. You should use the iron sites OR the Aimpoint, but never both at the same time. The setup you have will however co-witness nicely, which is the ability to use your iron sites with a 1x scope in place (but in-active!). Go out to the range, zero your iron sites, then zero your Aimpoint, and then enjoy...
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 7:40:43 PM EDT
blueshockey- I had the exact same problem with that setup. Your mount is too high. I fixed it by using two standard Weaver rings instead of the Aimpoint mount. That lowered the dot so it was about 1 mm below the tip of the front sight post. I have to tell you though, I didn't like the setup after shooting it a while. I like the Aimpoint closer to my eye. Having the dot so far away made it feel slow when I was trying to aquire the target. It also seemed to shift the balance of the rifle too far forward. You will have even more shift because of your vertical grip. DILBERT_556
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 9:10:31 PM EDT
what slag said. i use my aimpoint without paying attention to the front sight post. i though the whole idea of a rear site or flip up site was only in case the battery failed in the aimpoint. doesn't matter if the dot is on the post or wherever...where you see the dot is where the impact goes.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:19:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By slag: There is nothing wrong with your setup. The Aimpoint dot is NOT suppose to line up with your iron sites. You should use the iron sites OR the Aimpoint, but never both at the same time. The setup you have will however co-witness nicely, which is the ability to use your iron sites with a 1x scope in place (but in-active!). Go out to the range, zero your iron sites, then zero your Aimpoint, and then enjoy...
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Thanks, I feel much better about the situation. Looking forward to getting in sighted in soon. How hard do you think that will be (to get sighted in) after I have played around with the windage and elevation screws so much the past couple of days? I tried to count each click so I could put it back to the factory settings so I really don't think I'm off more than a few clicks on each from the original point. [BD] Thanks...
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:35:18 AM EDT
Maybe I am crazy, but this doesn't sound right to me. There is no reason to use your dot and your sights at the same time, although it wouldn't hurt anything if you did. I have done it and usually forget the other sighting system is there. In other words if I have my rear BUIS in the up position but am using the dot, I don't notice my rear sight being there. But this is the part that I don't understand: if the dot is zeroed, and your iron sights are zeroed; then if you have them both up and working, then you should see the dot on your front sight post. If you look through your iron sights, the bullet should impact just under where your front sight post is. If using the dot, the bullet should impact underneath the dot or whereever you chose to have it impact. If both sighting systems are zeroed at the same range you should be able to look through your iron sights and see the dot since they will both hit at the same range. Am I wrong on this, maybe I am missing something.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:42:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 444: Maybe I am crazy, but this doesn't sound right to me. There is no reason to use your dot and your sights at the same time, although it wouldn't hurt anything if you did. I have done it and usually forget the other sighting system is there. In other words if I have my rear BUIS in the up position but am using the dot, I don't notice my rear sight being there. But this is the part that I don't understand: if the dot is zeroed, and your iron sights are zeroed; then if you have them both up and working, then you should see the dot on your front sight post. If you look through your iron sights, the bullet should impact just under where your front sight post is. If using the dot, the bullet should impact underneath the dot or whereever you chose to have it impact. If both sighting systems are zeroed at the same range you should be able to look through your iron sights and see the dot since they will both hit at the same range. Am I wrong on this, maybe I am missing something.
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That was my initial thought on the whole Aimpoint setup and I guess the part that still is confusing to me. How can both be holding zero at the same time and not be on top of each other? Anyone, anyone?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 8:44:06 AM EDT
But this is the part that I don't understand: if the dot is zeroed, and your iron sights are zeroed; then if you have them both up and working, then you should see the dot on your front sight post. If you look through your iron sights, the bullet should impact just under where your front sight post is. If using the dot, the bullet should impact underneath the dot or whereever you chose to have it impact. If both sighting systems are zeroed at the same range you should be able to look through your iron sights and see the dot since they will both hit at the same range.
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That will happen if both the iron sights and the aimpoint are the same height. if your aimpoint is a bit higher like in the picture it will stilll be zeroed at the same range, but the triangulation angle to the target will be a bit different. that is why you wont see the dot at the same line of sight as the iron sights.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 9:04:40 AM EDT
I just spoke with Aimpoint® directly and they said it was normal with my type of setup not to see the dot through the rear iron sight. No voicemail prompts or anything there. A live human picked up the phone and was ready to answer questions! [:D]Thanks for all the great feedback and sorry for any confusion.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 9:12:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 9:13:51 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
FWIW, with the set-up you have, if ya zero the irons at 50 yards and ya zero the ML2 at 50 yards, then flip your BUIS and sight through the irons [red][b]your red-dot of the ML2 will be setting on top of the front sight post[/b][/red]. If it's not then your not looking through the rear iron peep properly or ya got a non-mil-spec A2 upper. The 39A2 w/ #22M68 mounted ML2 is a true co-witness set-up, meaning w/ a 50 yard zero the above highlited statement is fact. Mike
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 9:58:36 AM EDT
Mr Wilson and 444 are correct. Since the aimpoint has no parallax, once sighted in, you can look though it from / at any angle, and the dot will be on your point of impact. Therefore, if your sights are sighted in, when you aim through them, the dot has to be there on the front post, at your point of aim. Therefore, fix the gun in a stand, aim through your sights, adjust the dot to the front post and your aimpoint should be sighted in. You were doing the right thing to begin with. If you can't do that, spacing or alignment must be the problem or you have a bum aimpoint. From your photo, it looks like the aimpoint is tilted down toward the handguard at the front. If this is true and not an illusion, that would mess things up, surely. sorry for calling you shirley.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:51:04 AM EDT
[center]
Originally Posted By slag: There is nothing wrong with your setup. The Aimpoint dot is NOT suppose to line up with your iron sites. You should use the iron sites OR the Aimpoint, but never both at the same time. The setup you have will however co-witness nicely, which is the ability to use your iron sites with a 1x scope in place (but in-active!). Go out to the range, zero your iron sites, then zero your Aimpoint, and then enjoy...
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[/center] [center]
...Therefore, if your sights are sighted in, when you aim through them, the dot has to be there on the front post, at your point of aim. Therefore, fix the gun in a stand, aim through your sights, adjust the dot to the front post and your aimpoint should be sighted in. You were doing the right thing to begin with.
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[/center] [center][BD][BD][BD][/center]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:54:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 2:19:38 PM EDT by RLR]
Here's my setup. It looks the same as yours - ARMS rail, ARMS mount, I used NO spacer, bolted everything up, turned it on, and the dot was almost right on the front post. It appears that my mount is turned 180 from yours, but that should make no difference. When I shoulder the weapon normally, looking naturally through the sights but with BOTH EYES OPEN, the dot is right there, it is very fast, I can't imagine faster acquisition. Now if I can just get the picture to load.....nope, don't know how.....
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:27:24 PM EDT
OK, I have this same set up, works pefectly - dot sits on top of front sight in lower 1/3 of Aimpoint window. The question nobody asked - Are your irons sighted in? If not, you may not be able to get the dot in place. Also, are you moving the dot the right way? I think apparent motion is opposite the marked directions on the tube. The best way is to go to the range, zero the irons at 50 using the Santose IBZ. Then attach the Aimpoint and zero it at 50 yds as well. At this point the dot and the aligned irons should be coincident. If your irons are sighted in, you should be able to move the dot in line and save yourself a few rounds. Where exactly it will sit once zeroed is a function of your eyesight, preference, etc.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 6:41:01 PM EDT
[center]Not saying that this is a permanent fix by no means but I slipped a piece of foam that came with the Aimpoint® at the bottom of the mount and now the red dot sits nicely on top of the front post while looking through the REAR iron sight. Thought I would share the pic. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...[/center] [center][img]http://home.nc.rr.com/blueshockey77/ar_aimpoint_fuji.jpg[/img][/center][center][img]http://home.nc.rr.com/blueshockey77/ar_aimpoint_fuji2.jpg[/img][/center]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 7:05:33 PM EDT
I know this isn't a very good pic, but it should give you and idea of what it should look like. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=11934[/img]
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 7:35:52 PM EDT
Nuts! The Aimpoint is the AIMPOINT! Don't use the iron sights! That's the point, fast acquisition of the target that you don't get with the iron sights (they're a back-up). I have an Aimpoint and it's GREAT out to 100 meters. Waiting to pick-up a Trijicon Tri-Power to see if it's good out to 200 meters.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:53:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2003 9:08:08 PM EDT by mrcr0603]
It's a phenomenon that when your iron sights and Aimpoint is zeroed for the same distance, THE AIMPOINT IS TURNED ON, and you're sighting THROUGH YOUR IRONS, that the dot will be resting on the tip of the front sight post. This is because the dot in the Aimpoint "floats". Regardless of where it's located in the field-of-view, that's where the bullet's going to hit. To describe this phenomenon in NO WAY implies the use of irons and the Aimpoint together. [i]It's just an interesting fact that's good for boresighting or quickly confirming the zero of the Aimpoint in the field, AND THAT'S IT![/i] So .... you are NOT going to use both TOGETHER when firing your weapon. That would defeat the purpose of the optic sight. Either your optic is your primary sight, or your irons are, [b]with your optic either TURNED OFF or inoperative[/b]. [i]This is my explanation of co-witnessing from a thread in the [b]Optics[/b] forum, which I hope will clear things up. [b]Blueshockey[/b] - My setup is the same as yours, only I have a SIR attached to the bottom of my #39.[/i]
Do I need a mount that clears the field of vision through the optic? In plain english when I look through the damn thing do I want to be able to see the front sight post or not? Is seeing the front sight post through the optic what they refer to as co witnessing?
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First, remember that you use your irons OR your optic, NOT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. To do so would defeat the simplicity of using an Aimpoint-type of sight. Having your Aimpoint and iron sights [b]co-witnessed[/b], allows you to use your iron sights THROUGH your INOPERATIVE optic. It would be great to have a clear field of view for your optic sight, nothing but "glass". But whether you can do this depends on how you answer the following question: [b]"how fast do I need to access my iron sights in the event my optic sight fails"[/b]? If you have a need to [i]instantly[/i] aim your weapon in the event your optic sight fails, then having your optic and iron sights co-witnessed is essential. The trade-off for this capability is having your front sight in your optic field of view when you're using your optic sight. You will be looking over your rear sight aperture so at least that won't be in the way. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/p2c737bfd262fd05a083e0f206f757178/fc5d0546.jpg[/img] [i]NOTE: It was difficult for me to take this picture, and it doesn't depict what I want it to as well as I'd wanted it to. What I didn't do is focus the camera on the dot, which would've blurred the front sight.[/i] THE FRONT SIGHT WILL NOT BE THIS CLEAR in actual use. As you focus on the TARGET, the front sight will "ghost" out to a large degree. That's the tradeoff that you'll deal with, and not a bad tradeoff at all for the instant sighting capability. Notice again that the rear sight aperture is out of the way. This is the reason for using "spacers", to raise the height of the optic sight. We try and raise the sight high enough so that we can minimize the obstruction of the front sight assembly in the optic's field of view when we are using the optic as our primary aiming system. We want to get the front sight assembly as low in the optic's field of view as we can, while still having it visible enough to get a good sight picture, if we have to go to irons.
Also, what would be the next step if something happened to the optic and it no longer funcioned how do I use the iron sights?
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Okay, the optic FAILS and the optic aiming point DISAPPEARS. You simply lower your cheekweld SLIGHTLY to look through the rear sight aperture and line up your irons THROUGH the inoperative optic sight, as if the optic sight ISN'T THERE. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/pb43e619a439df4195f30f842c37fbfcc/fc5d0549.jpg[/img] [i]In this last picture, if I were to simply turn on the Aimpoint, the dot will be on the tip of the front sight post. Again, just an interesting point to know that's good for boresighting or quickly confirming the zero of the Aimpoint in the field, AND THAT'S IT!!![/i] Chris
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:00:50 PM EDT
I was mounting the Aimpoint® so that the flip-ups were at the 12 o'clock position instead of the adjustment screws being in the 12 and 3 o'clock position. Once that was completed... bingo! Thanks guys for all the great info and especially to RLR who pointed it out!
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 9:46:52 PM EDT
I am amazed at how 50% of the people who voiced an opinion here don't have a friggin clue what they are talking about. Of course if you have two sets of sights adjusted for the same point of impact they will superimpose over each other if you can view them both at the same time. I am glad you were able to filter out the crap and find the solution to your dillema.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 3:15:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: I am amazed at how 50% of the people who voiced an opinion here don't have a friggin clue what they are talking about. .
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Welcome to the world of internet "experts" [;)]
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