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Posted: 5/6/2003 8:36:03 AM EDT
Does anyone know the difference between these two cartridges? Thanks
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:01:39 PM EDT
The .50 Beowulf case is 1.650 inches long, tapered and based on extended .50AE brass. The .499 LWR is 1.750 inches long, straight-walled and designed specifically for the purpose.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:08:50 PM EDT
Ballistically speaking, not much......they perform about the same.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:38:20 PM EDT
Although the packaging for the 499LW is getting better looking every day....... [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=15134[/img] I still prefer the 458 SOCOM made by [url=www.teppojutsu.com]TeppoJutsu[/url] [:D]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:57:37 PM EDT
I think it's called the DMR or Dedicated Marksman Rifle. It has a one-piece upper receiver and rail system and a quick release barrel. The barrel itself is 24 inches long with 1 in 24 polygonal twist. The scope appears to be the Springfield Armory 4-14 x 56 Government Model.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 4:00:22 PM EDT
From what kind of range {distance} is it employed? Looks like it is meant for LR, but then again the parabolic trajectory of all these rounds would kind of preclude that.... Hmm.....
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 4:11:16 PM EDT
The guys said they were shooting a new spitzer round of 275 grains which had a BC of about 350 and an MV of around 2,500 fps. From what I could ascertain the maximum range was intended to be around 550 yards.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 4:16:54 PM EDT
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=15137[/img]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 4:44:36 PM EDT
If you can quickly change barrels, then you could have this gun in .223, .499, .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf! All you'd need are the barrels and bolts. WOW!
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 4:52:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3shotburst: If you can quickly change barrels, then you could have this gun in .223, .499, .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf! All you'd need are the barrels and bolts. WOW!
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Forgive me for being dense, but isn't this concept already intrinsic in the design of the AR-15? [;)] I have three uppers that ride in my gun case with the AR-15 lower: 50AE, 458 SOCOM, and 5.56x45.....I am tossing around the idea of scoring a Beowulf, but kinda like the look of the DMR above..... Ed
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:00:47 PM EDT
I guess what 3shot was getting at was the fact that you didn't need to buy different uppers, just different barrels and bolts, a cheaper option? I've sniffed around and the reasons behind this upper seem to be 1, ability to change barrel length and 2, better integrity and performance than the current crop of RAS and RIS etc. .223 versions are about with the military.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:06:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: [red]a cheaper option?[/red]
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With the standard LW499 upper checking in at $895+shipping, I'm betting the cheaper part of that equation is not accurate. Upper receivers can be had for under $100, if you have three different LW uppers all you need is the bolt group and you can roll, right? Simply operate two pins and you have a contained system, vs. a spare parts truck to support you. I think I would rather have self contained units than parts lying around for change outs..... In whatever caliber. Innovative, but not sure of the necessity. Now if this was a LMG this is a superb idea. Ed
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:14:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 5:15:41 PM EDT by HipFiredGun]
I guess I was just thinking the the bolt head an barrel would be cheaper than a complete upper but I take your point, think of all those barrels and bolts rolling around in the back of the truck! Re; the LMG, I did see something which looked like a Beta C Mag (it wasn't a Beta) which I was told held 74 rounds [:)] Now if the ban sunsets in 04........
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:59:24 PM EDT
Sounds like the MWG "snail" drum, but what scares me: Suppose I load it with 74 rounds (being me, I would use the .458 SOCOM cartridge, naturally, and being me once more, I would use the 500 grain loads). Now, let's see. 500 grain bullet, 26 grain powder, suppose 100 grain for the case (just a number, it is more but it still gets the point across) That makes about 630 grains per round. 74 of those makes 46,620 grains or 6.66 (yikes!) pounds - all supported by that diminutive mag catch. Sure hope it has a bungy cord! [;)] Marty
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:10:37 PM EDT
It wasn't the MWG mag, it definately had a twin drum set up. I asked on the weight and was told 7.4lbs, but it has an uprated mag catch. Other than that, and the fact that it looked like an inverted MG15 mag I don't know any more.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:12:12 PM EDT
Was this weapon select fire??
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:19:37 PM EDT
The one in the photo is semi, but there was also a full auto lower there. They were shooting on the semi for accuracy with the 2 stage trigger, I didn't actually see the full auto fire whilst I was on site.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:36:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 7:38:02 PM EDT by ar10er]
The Coast Guard buys weapons for boarding ships, so you would want something with knock down power at close range. This looks like it fills the bill well, but they will still be using shotguns.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 9:41:19 PM EDT
My understanding is that the Coast Guard was looking for a rifle that they could employ in drug interdictions for stopping hard targets, ie: boats. Up 'til now, there wasn't any armament available between the M16/M4/M-14 rifles and the HBM2 .50. The 5.56 and .308 did not have enough horsepower and the .50, well, it sinks most boats. The .499 give them hard target stopping power without the over penitration of the .50 cal. The training time is also reduced since it is basically a M16/M4 carriage.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:08:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 9:09:41 AM EDT by blikbok]
Why would they want to employ a hand-held weapon against boats? I don't think I completely understand the connection between the Coast Guard's job and the LW 499.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:16:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 9:17:21 AM EDT by fastang50]
Coasties conduct A LOT of boardings. This thing is ideal for them, tons of knockdown power. edit: they have 50bmg and bigger to use against the other boat/ship itself.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:17:44 AM EDT
Frangible loads too.....although the Beowulf and 458 SOCOM both have them available as well.... 5.56 frangibles still had debris ricochet, from my understanding, on metal hulled boats. Ed
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:35:14 AM EDT
Where do you get Spitzer bullets in .50 cal? Bob
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:40:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fastang50: Coasties conduct A LOT of boardings. This thing is ideal for them, tons of knockdown power.
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Along with tons of overpenetration. Actually, I've heard the CG never purchased any .499's. They evaluated a few rifles but never bought any.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:45:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BigD:
Originally Posted By fastang50: Coasties conduct A LOT of boardings. This thing is ideal for them, tons of knockdown power.
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Along with tons of overpenetration. Actually, I've heard the CG never purchased any .499's. They evaluated a few rifles but never bought any.
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You heard wrong. I think the order was for about 8,000 rifles, and there was a blurb in the American Rifleman about it.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:50:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson:
Originally Posted By BigD:
Originally Posted By fastang50: Coasties conduct A LOT of boardings. This thing is ideal for them, tons of knockdown power.
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Along with tons of overpenetration. Actually, I've heard the CG never purchased any .499's. They evaluated a few rifles but never bought any.
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You heard wrong. I think the order was for about 8,000 rifles, and there was a blurb in the American Rifleman about it.
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Funny thing. A lower is considered to be a "rifle"... And I believe the order was for 6k LOWERS only. The CG only has 1 weapons procurement officer. He loves the .499 LW. He's retiring. Can you guess who has hired him already?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:52:16 AM EDT
[peep]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:46:28 AM EDT
Why in the world would the C.G. order lowers only? That makes absofuckinglutely no sense. The lower is the same as any other lower, except with L-W markings. If you have a source for your statement that the C.G. only "evaluated" the weapon without signing the contract to purchase the rifle, please let us know what it is.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:50:27 AM EDT
Non-senisical things have happened before in the gov't....anybody remember the $600 hammers? $3000 toilet seats? How about the expenditure of $1 billion dollars on the Crusader artillery platform, only to have it scuttled -- when the Dept of Army hated the design to begin with...[rolleyes] I have no doubt there are complete rifles running around the CG, but still unclear about who is getting them and such. It's not like the CG is Delta or anything....why is there no huge report about it? FWIW, I think the American Rifleman blurb was a L-W press release. Ed
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:52:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 11:54:17 AM EDT by eswanson]
I'm sure no one will believe this, since it's from L-W's website and, therefore, obviously just propaganda, but here goes: "Senator Allen Touts Virginia Company's Homeland Security Contribution April 23, 2003 Washington, DC… United States Senator George Allen (R-VA) today announced the United States Coast Guard [red]has accepted the first order of new rifles[/red] which will be used in the effort to secure our nation’s waterways, ports and borders from terror attacks. The weapons were made in Alexandria, Virginia by the Leitner-Wise Rifle Company. “Modernizing our weaponry and providing our troops with the best equipment possible are a top priority,” said Senator Allen. “When our military purchases from a Virginia-based company, they know they’re getting a top quality product. These purchases also give a boost to our local and State economy.” The [red]five-year contract calls for the purchase of up to 8,000 Leitner-Wise LW15 .499 “mini-.50” weapon systems[/red] over the next two years. The mini-.50 is a state-of-the-art weapon and is compatible with existing standard weapons, according to a company spokesman." Whatever. I'll hopefully be posting a range report about mine next week, since I'll finally be getting it to the range this weekend.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:53:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: If you have a source for your statement that the C.G. only "evaluated" the weapon without signing the contract to purchase the rifle, please let us know what it is.
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It may not make sense until you consider the fact that the Weapons Officer knows the people at LW and wanted to give them business. If I gave my source, it wouldn't be available to me anymore. That's the way most sources like this work. You can believe me or not, but consider that none of our members (arfcom) who are in the CG have yet to see a .499 LW rifle yet.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:55:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 12:00:20 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By eswanson: I'm sure no one will believe this, since it's from L-W's website and, therefore, obviously just propaganda, but here goes: "Senator Allen Touts Virginia Company's Homeland Security Contribution April 23, 2003 Washington, DC… United States Senator George Allen (R-VA) today announced the United States Coast Guard [red]has accepted the first order of new rifles[/red] which will be used in the effort to secure our nation’s waterways, ports and borders from terror attacks. The weapons were made in Alexandria, Virginia by the Leitner-Wise Rifle Company. “Modernizing our weaponry and providing our troops with the best equipment possible are a top priority,” said Senator Allen. “When our military purchases from a Virginia-based company, they know they’re getting a top quality product. These purchases also give a boost to our local and State economy.” The [red]five-year contract calls for the purchase [blue]of up to 8,000[/blue] Leitner-Wise LW15 .499 “mini-.50” weapon systems[/red] over the next two years. The mini-.50 is a state-of-the-art weapon and is compatible with existing standard weapons, according to a company spokesman." Whatever. I'll hopefully be posting a range report about mine next week, since I'll finally be getting it to the range this weekend.
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having worked around gov't contracts for the last 6 years I can tell you we have a contract that has an 8 year value of $75 million. Phase I is funded for $75K, with no expectation on either side, that the contract will be awarded, in full, at any time. Right now, they are unsure whether we will even get the $10K for Phase II testing. "up to" means 1 or 2 or 50 or 500....or 8000. Or none. Doesn't mean some of the peripheral stuff isn't true, like the fact that L-W may still get paid $xxx,xxx.xx or whatever..... Time will tell, I am reserving judgment. "up to" is NEVER language you want to see from the supplier's end of the contract...[peep]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:56:13 AM EDT
Most of our members in the military also haven't seen an F-22 Raptor. Or M955 AP 5.56 ammo. They must not exist either.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 12:01:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: Most of our members in the military also haven't seen an F-22 Raptor. Or M955 AP 5.56 ammo. They must not exist either.
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OK, well it's not worth arguing over. I've put forward facts. You can chose to believe them or not. In any event, I have nothing against LW. I'm not a fan of the caliber, however, as I don't like it's shortcomings. I.E. a high-pressured straight-walled case in an auto-loader is a known problem (extraction issues) and the fact that it's not reloadable. I would like to hear a range report, however.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 12:11:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BigD: OK, well it's not worth arguing over.
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Agreed. I'm bringing the digicam to the range, so hopefully the report will include pics.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 2:20:27 PM EDT
The original order called for up to 8,000 conversion kits, this is now being increased to 16,000. These are built on USCG supplied M16 A2 lowers. The USCG is in the process of fielding the first delivery of these weapons now. The DMR is built on a LW full-auto lower and is supplied as such. Big D, I don't wish to flame you but you are talking crap! The pressure barrel readings (not computer program commercial balistic software guestimates) give pressures below 30,000 psi on the 300 gr projectiles and 32,500 on the 385 gr so you should really check your facts and as for extraction problems the weak extractor springs were dealt with over a year ago. The application of the weapon for the USCG's new role after 9/11 is spot on, it sits between 308 and 50 BMG. As for any members of the USCG joining LW, they are forbidden to do so for 2 years after they leave the service.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:10:17 PM EDT
[banghead] alow me to dispell SOME rumors (not all). the uscg has indeed taken delivery on several LW15s. for now they remain in armory in yorktown virginia. Several friends of mine have had the opportunity to fire them, and thier opinon of the rifle is... well the uscg doesn't care what their opinion might be. the rifles are at the disposal of some of the units at that base, but most of the personell from those units have been and remain deployed to hot sandy places that will remain un-named. it is true that most of the units that were told they were going to recieve LW15s to date have not [including my own]. nor have they recieved M4s, M16s, shotguns, or anything else that might be considered useful. [the scuttelbut is that every thing that wasn't nailed down was shipped east(far east)]. am i ever going to get a LW15? i'd be happy to get anything better than the crappy M9 i've got now. now for the INTENT. the intended use for the .499 is vessel interdiction, wether it be from a a helo, small boat, cutter, or shoreside. to take-out an incomeing boat(drug go-fast or USS Cole type thing) either the engine has to be ruined or the operator hit. that's all for now will finish up later...kids getting sleepy...
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:13:52 PM EDT
I'm not a fan of the caliber, however, as I don't like it's shortcomings. I.E. a high-pressured straight-walled case in an auto-loader is a known problem (extraction issues) and the fact that it's not reloadable.
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From what I understand the LW .499's chamber pressure is much much lower than the SOCOM or BEOWULF round. Due to the relative low pressure it will also be re-loadable.
I would like to hear a range report, however.
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I have sent rounds down range with this weapon system and I can attest that extraction problems are something it doesn't have. It did however have lot's of feed jams due to first generation mags being used. According to Paul, the new mags have all the bugs worked out and function 100%. It's definitely a interesting rifle, A rifle you never want to be on the business end of. DD out!! [sniper]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:16:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 6:18:54 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By DDMAO:
I'm not a fan of the caliber, however, as I don't like it's shortcomings. I.E. a high-pressured straight-walled case in an auto-loader is a known problem (extraction issues) and the fact that it's not reloadable.
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From what I understand the LW .499's chamber pressure is much much lower than the SOCOM or BEOWULF round. Due to the relative low pressure it will also be re-loadable.[red]You may want to consult someone before making a claim like this...this has been covered before and nothing about the ballistics, pressures, velocities, etc is MUCH, MUCH anything different. Only thing that is MUCH MUCH lower is the price of the 458 SOCOM and 50 BEOWULF.[/red]
I would like to hear a range report, however.
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I have sent rounds down range with this weapon system and I can attest that extraction problems are something it doesn't have. It did however have lot's of feed jams due to first generation mags being used. According to Paul, the new mags have all the bugs worked out and function 100%. It's definitely a interesting rifle, A rifle you never want to be on the business end of. DD out!! [sniper]
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Brass made by L-W is [b]specifically[/b] branded as NOT RELOADABLE.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:49:06 PM EDT
Damm I've had a 499 LAM for years AKA Lever Action Marlin in 45-70 10 shot mag shoots 300,350,and 405 grn at 2200fps not fancy but works for me in the AAM (anti-asso-magnum dept.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 8:21:11 PM EDT
I talked to the Paul Leitner-Wise once, and he said that reloading stuff was not being offered b/c at this time b/c of liability issues. He said that the insurance companies were evaluating the cartrige's saftey at such. He said it had something to do w/ the metallic projectiles which are harder to load properly than lead projectiles???
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 8:22:30 PM EDT
Coastie, the 499's are being issue from SARF in Crane not Yorktown where they have two early models. Ed, the brass is indeed labled not suitable for reloading which if you call LW is an isurance requirement. We have tested the brass and it has the hardess reading we have ever taken off the head of a brass case, the stuff is indestructable! LW are committed to supplying factory loaded ammunition only until their insurance company ok reloading. At $16 for 20 Speer 325 gr HP, that's pretty good value. I have to concur with you that the DMR looks good. I don't know if they are selling them to the public or not though?
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 3:06:51 PM EDT
Can anyone tell me anything about the upper in the photo? Looks interesting, is it available in 223?
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:49:42 AM EDT
CmdrColt: LW will sell the upper with a 5.56mm match barrel. Call them for the price.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 10:29:21 AM EDT
do a google search for mh-68 or hitron 10. it is the helo that the coast guard is using for drug interdiction. it is equipped with a .30 cal machine gun, a .50 cal sniper rifle to disable engines, flir, spot light, and damned fast. really awesome aircraft. if any are interested, they make an appearance in bad boys II. later.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 10:34:00 AM EDT
What is the coast guard using these for? What will they do that an M16A4, ACOG, and 77GN OTM ammo wont? Or a M14 wont? Or an M1 Garand wont? Other than blow alot of tax dollars...
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:01:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: What is the coast guard using these for? What will they do that an M16A4, ACOG, and 77GN OTM ammo wont? Or a M14 wont? Or an M1 Garand wont? Other than blow alot of tax dollars...
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The CQB versions will put a 300+gr frangible [b]non-lead[/b] projectile on target with force in the 3000lb+ range, like a semi auto 45/70. This cuts down on richochet and also diminishes lead being introduced in to the waterways. I am not a huge fan, but there are other uses as well.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:57:57 AM EDT
AR15fan: The Coast Guard are using the DMR rifles for a last line defense of HVA's. The purpose of the weapon is to engage hostile threats, once identified, with accurate rifle fire and if that fails to deter, full-auto. The weapon is fitted with a 70 round magazine similar to a C Mag. It bridges the gap between 308 and 50 BMG. Try using a 5.56 or .308 against a small boat - it's useless! And as for tax dollars, with new M240's costing $9,000 + and M2's around $17,000, it's clear to see that these are very cost effective weapon platforms.
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