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Posted: 5/4/2003 9:04:09 PM EDT
I've got an opportunity to get one of the AR's loaned to the LAPD during the 1997 bank robbery. It has notarized documentation of the provenance. It is one of 4 rifles and 2 shotguns listed on the documentation. It's a pre-ban Essential Arms gun. I'm interested as much for the history as anything else. I should have it tomorrow.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:06:24 PM EDT
sounds like a winner, I just hope you aren't overpaying. Welcome to the club and welcome to 'black rifle fever'. [beer]
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:19:13 PM EDT
Well, I'm not really sure how much the history should add to the gun but I want it sooooo..... Anyway, I don't think I can get hurt too badly on a good black rifle. It will be interesting to tell the grandkids about some day.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:19:59 PM EDT
I was about 3 blocks up Oxnard St. and watched the cops tear ass up the street heading to B&B to get those rifles. We could hear the shooting in the distance as we were slamming rounds into our mags as fast as we could! Had it lasted for another 20 mins, we would have had one of our buddies on the roof of an apartment building accross the street from the bank with his Barrett. LAPD SCREWED up the whole thing and we watched it all on TV in real time. The SWAT guys were all around doing "weapon checks" on their full autos as everything went down but never went in. [peep] Good ole chief willie was history within a few weeks. What a fiasco. I hope you have better luck with the rifle than the LAPD did.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:23:38 PM EDT
Ouch!
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:36:07 PM EDT
If it wasn't simple goodwill of the gun shop shopkeeper, how did the police get those guns to use? Hey pal can I borrow a semi-auto for a while? I don't think so. Does anyone know what happend in this case, and/or if police have some sort of special priviledge to assume private property?
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:50:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2003 9:53:31 PM EDT by rickinvegas]
Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt: If it wasn't simple goodwill of the gun shop shopkeeper, how did the police get those guns to use? Hey pal can I borrow a semi-auto for a while? I don't think so. Does anyone know what happened in this case, and/or if police have some sort of special privilege to assume private property?
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B&B was THE cop shop in the Valley, It was a huge shop with a staff of probably 10 at any time (it has since closed since being that there was nothing else they could sell in Cali. I bought my first AR from them when I was 18 in 1981) There were SWAT teams ALL over the place and all were fully equipped with full auto M16's, heavy cal sniper weapons etc. but they NEVER got the order to go in. These 4 rifles were "borrowed" by beat cops who just wanted to fight back! It is a TOTAL myth that LAPD was "outgunned" that day. They could have put these guys down in a matter of minutes. They just had no leadership, tactical or otherwise. The guys at B&B knew all these guys and they knew them and while they said they had the weapons waiting for them they were probably doing the same thing we were doing and just getting ready for the fight to move our way.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 10:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2003 10:30:33 PM EDT by PaDanby]
They weren't outgunned. My feeling is that things kept evolving so fast they couldn't get the bureaucracy to respond to the changes and movements. I had a buddy that got responded from his training session. For bike patrol, he said he never felt so underdressed in his shorts and polo shirt. I kinda always wondered why B&B didn't kick in a "big-game" rifle or something in 338 or up. One of those with the right bullet would have done the job or at least made him so sick the smaller stuff or a second round could finish the job. Then again trying to get the big guns to where those guys were heading was a challenge. Then again I'm not sure any gunstore in the greater LA area would have had a heavy rifle with sighted in scope sitting around in addition to being willing to give it to a Cop and say what the bullet drop is, etc. I got my black rifle at the B&B in Orange County and I don't recall seeing much in the way of heavy stuff there or any other place. That was a real cluster, I don't think I can second guess too much other than the generic LAPD and city politics combine to keep the really nasty stuff tied up for SWAT and then you need approval. It's better, but we are talking about a big city and big department, you can't avoid issues smaller places don't get. You gotta admit most SWAT training doesn't include the amount of target movement these guys were doing. It ain't an easy problem getting the right gun in front of where the bad guy is going.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 10:49:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas: B&B was THE cop shop in the Valley, It was a huge shop with a staff of probably 10 at any time (it has since closed since being that there was nothing else they could sell in Cali. I bought my first AR from them when I was 18 in 1981) There were SWAT teams ALL over the place and all were fully equipped with full auto M16's, heavy cal sniper weapons etc. but they NEVER got the order to go in. These 4 rifles were "borrowed" by beat cops who just wanted to fight back! It is a TOTAL myth that LAPD was "outgunned" that day. They could have put these guys down in a matter of minutes. They just had no leadership, tactical or otherwise. The guys at B&B knew all these guys and they knew them and while they said they had the weapons waiting for them they were probably doing the same thing we were doing and just getting ready for the fight to move our way.
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I was under the impression that the SWAT teams arrived just shortly before it ended and didn't have time to really do anything. Would you say the beat cops with Glocks and shotguns had the firepower to take these guys out, or were police on the scene pretty quick with heavier firepower, yet they screwed up for some other reason tactically? Not trying to be smart, I really don't know. I only saw the footage on TV in Arizona, which may have been edited, and only got the news the media and police said about the situation. We all know how the news is, and the LAPD isn't going to say they screwed up. Seriously, I would like to know more about the circumstances.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 3:11:07 AM EDT
If I am not mistaken, SWAT killed the second guy or at least they were the last ones to fire on him and are the ones he surrended to. He died on scene. The first guy shot himself. The thing I always got a kick out of is that from all accounts, they went into the store and got these rifles and just assumed they were sighted in.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:04:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 7:05:50 AM EDT by jasondcrum]
Rick: (AR,AR) I take it that the guy with the Barrett was not LE. If he had had the chance to cancel Christmas for the robbers on live TV with a .50 I wonder how that would have gone over. I would assume he would have taken a lot of flak at the least {please insert the word 'overkill' here} but it sure would have made the end of the shootout even more spectacular. I hate to be the guy dreaming of shootout senerios but the thought of that gran finale makes me grin. (AR,AR) I put AR in so we were still on topic [:D] J
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:25:59 AM EDT
Say what you want about the leadership problems and decisions when SWAT had arrived, but the pistol-packining beat cops who responded first were most certainly outgunned.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:06:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Thomas_A_Anderson: Say what you want about the leadership problems and decisions when SWAT had arrived, but the pistol-packining beat cops who responded first were most certainly outgunned.
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No doubt! The thing that non-angelenos need to keep in mind is geography and the LAPD. First off, LA is a BIG place. People who have never lived there or don't know it have to remember this. The San Fernando Valley (where this happened is about 10 miles wide and about 15 miles long with a population of @1.3 million by itself. Because LA is so spread out, LAPD marshals its resources in several places. In the Valley, the main station is the Van Nuys facility. This station is only a couple of miles from the NoHo bank where the shootout occurred. LAPD has APC's in their inventory for christ's sake! Why were the beat cops forced to beg rides from passing Well Fargo armored cars?!? Their SWAT teams have some of the best snipers with the best equipment in the world. My point through all this is that none of it was used! The "SWAT" team that took out the 2nd robber looked like 4 undercover vice cops in a cruiser. Hell, one of them was wearing shorts! SWAT my ass, that was just a story to cover the truth. BTW, one of those cops had his life ruined by the law suit brought against him for "letting" the guy die. As for the Barrett, again geography is important. I grew up in the Valley like many of my friends, we know every street, alley and dead end street there. We were watching the TV while this was all going on dumbfounded on why the cops were doing (or not doing) what they were. Across the street (Lankershim Blvd) from the bank there was a 2 block long large "strip mall" and then 2 3-4 story apartment buildings. Access to the back of these building was WIDE open. Any cop, let alone us, could have easily gotten into firing position in a matter of minutes. This is not speculation, it is a fact. One of the apartment buildings alone had probably 25 baloneys directly looking down over the bank parking lot 50-75 yards away with nice thick stucco/wood cover. One of our shooting buddies lived on that side of Lankershim about 1.5 miles from the bank and owned a .50 cal. We were listening to everything on the scanner and heard all about the body armor and knew one heavy cal shot would take these guys out. I only mention the .50 because that is all he owned. We we finally got him on his cell phone but by that time the first guy had gone down. Yes, I think he would have done it and believe it or not, I think he would have been considered a hero and taken very little heat. Remember in the 5 years leading up to this we had already experienced 2 significant SHTF situations: The Riots and the northridge earthquake. It was a different time and thanks to Rodney King, LAPD is a different police force.....sadly. God, I feel I have started my own Blog. Sorry to ramble on.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:28:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:49:07 AM EDT
...only in California.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:55:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 9:57:36 AM EDT by rickinvegas]
Originally Posted By Aimless: I thought the B&B guns were never actually used, that some SWAT team members that were doing some kind of training responded with police issue ARs before the B&B guns were fired.
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You are correct, these rifles were never fired that day. BTW, getting back to the original post by ldb, given a decent price, I would jump at the chance to purchase one of these weapons. Used that day or not, they are famous weapons that EVERYONE knows about and I believe they have value. I don't want anyone to think I am bagging on ldb for buying this AR. Don't mortgage your home but go for it!
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:03:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ldb: I've got an opportunity to get one of the AR's loaned to the LAPD during the 1997 bank robbery. It has notarized documentation of the provenance. It is one of 4 rifles and 2 shotguns listed on the documentation. It's a pre-ban Essential Arms gun. I'm interested as much for the history as anything else. I should have it tomorrow.
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The fact that your AR is a preban is nice but the "provenance" will likely transcend all other factors. Hold your rifle until the right collector comes along and come along he (she?) will.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:06:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas: ...LA is a BIG place. ... Because LA is so spread out, LAPD marshals its resources in several places.
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Isn't this the reason that L.A.P.D. has that new tactical team program (I forget what they call it)? Basically, they take some experienced beat cops, give them additional training and give them a trunk full of gear, including tactical carbines, body armor, etc. These guys then do their normal job unless a call comes in, at which time they respond to a martialling point and assemble into a team. Upside to it is quicker response and better equipment. Downside is, you don't know who's going to respond so there's no cohesive team that you're always training with. Does this program (still) exist? Or is my memory completely FOS? It's been a while since I saw the program on it, but it seemed like a better-than-nothing solution to L.A.s geography problem.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:06:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 10:30:25 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Originally Posted By Thomas_A_Anderson: Say what you want about the leadership problems and decisions when SWAT had arrived, but the pistol-packining beat cops who responded first were most certainly outgunned.
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No doubt! The thing that non-angelenos need to keep in mind is geography and the LAPD. First off, LA is a BIG place. People who have never lived there or don't know it have to remember this. The San Fernando Valley (where this happened is about 10 miles wide and about 15 miles long with a population of @1.3 million by itself. Because LA is so spread out, LAPD marshals its resources in several places. In the Valley, the main station is the Van Nuys facility. This station is only a couple of miles from the NoHo bank where the shootout occurred. LAPD has APC's in their inventory for christ's sake! Why were the beat cops forced to beg rides from passing Well Fargo armored cars?!? Their SWAT teams have some of the best snipers with the best equipment in the world. My point through all this is that none of it was used! The "SWAT" team that took out the 2nd robber looked like 4 undercover vice cops in a cruiser. Hell, one of them was wearing shorts! SWAT my ass, that was just a story to cover the truth. BTW, one of those cops had his life ruined by the law suit brought against him for "letting" the guy die. As for the Barrett, again geography is important. I grew up in the Valley like many of my friends, we know every street, alley and dead end street there. We were watching the TV while this was all going on dumbfounded on why the cops were doing (or not doing) what they were. Across the street (Lankershim Blvd) from the bank there was a 2 block long large "strip mall" and then 2 3-4 story apartment buildings. Access to the back of these building was WIDE open. Any cop, let alone us, could have easily gotten into firing position in a matter of minutes. This is not speculation, it is a fact. One of the apartment buildings alone had probably 25 baloneys directly looking down over the bank parking lot 50-75 yards away with nice thick stucco/wood cover. One of our shooting buddies lived on that side of Lankershim about 1.5 miles from the bank and owned a .50 cal. We were listening to everything on the scanner and heard all about the body armor and knew one heavy cal shot would take these guys out. I only mention the .50 because that is all he owned. We we finally got him on his cell phone but by that time the first guy had gone down. Yes, I think he would have done it and believe it or not, I think he would have been considered a hero and taken very little heat. Remember in the 5 years leading up to this we had already experienced 2 significant SHTF situations: The Riots and the northridge earthquake. It was a different time and thanks to Rodney King, LAPD is a different police force.....sadly. God, I feel I have started my own Blog. Sorry to ramble on.
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Both suspect were shot by SWAT. The guy who "killed himself" was hit at the same time with a round to the base of his skull. That's why he jerks in two directions as he shoots himself. Much easier, and politically correct to let the suspect be given credit for taking his own life. Suspect #2 was shot by the SWAT team. They were coming from training, that's why the silly clothes were worn, LAPD PT gear apparently. Just because you have a SWAT team doesn't mean they are sitting in an APC waiting for "the big one". Nextly even of they are geared up and the big one comes in, it takes them time to get to where it is. Then they like to know where, who, how to approach etc. So planning takes a bit. The armored cars, were supposedely, primarily used to pull injured people, both cops and citizens, out of the "kill zones". They used the guards to drive, and the officers to put people into the "car". I'm not sure how much "battle taxi" work the armored cars saw. This brings us back to one of OLY's repeated points, if TSHTF, cop wise, they will probably only have access to the equipment they have with them RIGHT NOW. If a dept. has AR-15's, shotguns, etc. they do no good unless the LINE officers have IMMEDIATE access to them.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:16:54 PM EDT
I was at B&B a couple of days before the shootout. They never had anything bigger than the AR15, excpet for bolt actions. I bought my first Uzi their before the 89 ban. The owner let them borrow them, there were not special privileges to LEO. I would agree they weren't undergunned and that it was poor leadership. I went back to work the following day and saw the aftermath.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:32:02 PM EDT
Was reading this thread and am wondering what the effect would have been if rickinvegas' friend had shot the bad guys with his Barret .50. Assuming military surplus ball ammo at 75 yards on a human target wearing body armer. I have absolutely no doubt that the bad guy is toast, but how much residual energy would the bullet have after exiting? Are we talking lots and lots, or what? Just curious. DILBERT_556
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:50:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dilbert_556: Was reading this thread and am wondering what the effect would have been if rickinvegas' friend had shot the bad guys with his Barret .50. Assuming military surplus ball ammo at 75 yards on a human target wearing body armer. I have absolutely no doubt that the bad guy is toast, but how much residual energy would the bullet have after exiting? Are we talking lots and lots, or what? Just curious. DILBERT_556
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If you have never witnessed anything being shot with a .50, more than you could imagine. A human torso with soft body armor would barely slow it down.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:22:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dilbert_556: I have absolutely no doubt that the bad guy is toast, but how much residual energy would the bullet have after exiting? Are we talking lots and lots, or what? Just curious.
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A .50 cal hit from 75 yards? All that would have been left was the ski mask and the AJ's. Remember the shot would have been from 4-5 stories up and the steel core would have probably buried itself down a couple of feet through the asphalt parking lot or street. Also remember, there were no innocent "bystanders" milling about once the shooting started. Hell, even we moved away from the windows and we were almost a mile away.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:12:37 PM EDT
The AR is now safely home. I'll take the every day one in on Wed. to put up for sale since it's not what I really want. I think the next one will be an A3 Dissipator. That's the other one I really want. I've got a Colt 4x scope I'll put on one or the other. Just have to decide which one.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:15:44 PM EDT
Couple more comments. My buddy that got rolled on the incident from bike training was from San Pedro, others in the training session were from other divisions. San Pedro is about 40 miles from the scene. I think the training was around Griffith Park some place, maybe the Academy by dodger Stadium. Geography, as noted, is a major factor. From Pt. Fermin to the north end of the Valley is close to 60 miles. Probably 25 miles east to west at the wide points. And you have the Hollywood Hills breaking up the N/S routes into a series of chokepoints, Golden State Freeway on the East, Hollywood Freeway in the middle and San Diego Freeway on the West with a handful of Canyon Roads. All of which can lock up tight at the same time. Just between you me and the fence post, I'ld be damn sure the good guys knew I was going on to the roof to help before I did it around here. Part of the way LAPD covers it's big area is a lot more air units than most places. And how are they going to react if they see an unknown sniper on a roof. And how are the ground forces gonna react when somebody behind them cuts loose toward them and over their heads in their direction, or in front of them at them. Me I'ld grab a cop and let him know what I had and could engage from the roof and then let them give me an escort and hopefully a go-ahead or the escort with a radio that can get a go-ahead. Doing it on your own may make you a hero or ???. Granted you can use the common law defense that deadly force is legal when defending lives but that may not work in all locations. California it should be OK, other states don't allow it.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 10:51:41 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 11:24:05 PM EDT
Under exigent circumstances LE (in every jurisdiction I'm aware of) can "take charge" virtually anything including guns. I once ordered a cab driver to give me a ride to man with a knife call because I was on foot and the call was too far away to run to. I thought it was quite creative for the patrol guys to go to the gun store and better arm themselves. Although I would suspect that the Department would end up buying everything that was "borrowed". If I owned the store I would insist since the guns were now used.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 1:03:20 AM EDT
If I were the gun shop owner I wouldn't sell the guns to the Police department if they begged. They have to be worth more money with this story to tell. On one of the other post someone is buying one of the guns. He didn't say how much he is paying but it is more than a new one of the same type would be.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:28:59 AM EDT
I bought it at a definite premium over any other preban rifle however the history of it was too much to pass up. It's one of those things that you just decide you have to have.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:57:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 5:57:42 AM EDT by shaggy]
Originally Posted By ldb: I bought it at a definite premium over any other preban rifle however the history of it was too much to pass up. It's one of those things that you just decide you have to have.
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Did you get any kind of verification that it really was used there? Did this little piece of history come with a video of some of the news footage? C'mon - lets see some pics!
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:32:07 AM EDT
Does anybody remember the "Texas Tower?" Charles Whittman? The SWAT Team that handled that? Trick question. The "Texas Tower" shooting incident happened (in Austin, TX). Charles Whittman (sp?) was the shooter. He tagged 20-30 victims as I remember (as in dead - I can't remember how many he wounded. The SWAT Team. SWAT in LA under Gates (not as chief) happened AFTER the Watts Riots. SWAT was in LA anyway, not Austin - or anywhere else. Citizens were racing to and from their homes getting hunting rifles and returning fire with anything that would shoot. Guns were still legal. Cops APPRECIATED having armed law abiding citizens in the neighborhood. Peter Jennings was in Canada. Senator Bird was still a Clansman. The Clintons were in College, not inhaling, and kids had guns - for recreation instead of their own SUV's. It was a better world. We made pathetic parents. I don't know the politics or dynamics of SWAT's role in the North Hollywood shoot out. I saw the footage of their SWAT guys in tac vests and shorts. But in combat, sometimes you just have to put fashion aside, ya know what I mean. My Team has worked and trained with their guys. They're excellent. Out gunned is a media bullshit concept. They were out fought, not out gunned. Two uniformed cops finally worked their way to the top of the Texas Tower with revolvers and killed Whittman. And Whittman had a serious arsinal. The street cops in LA did exactly what they were trained to do. 9mm - center of mass. And the bad guys knew they would. Because you WILL fight like you trained. And the bad guys trained for how they knew the cops would fight. In fact, at one point in the footage you can hear some cop come on the air and tell the troops to shoot 'em in the legs. But we don't train our guys to DO, or even THINK about doing, stuff like that. Or running them down with a car? How about that (media field day)? The scary thing from our perspective (I'm retired - a civilian again) is the way the media ALWAYS portrays the GUN as the event. And of course, the public doesn't know any better than to just accept it's protrayal. A house full of guns and ammo is not a threat to anyone. Someone shooting one of them would be, but most people can only shoot one gun at a time. So who cares how much, or even what kind, of weapons are there. The target is the bad guy (assuming he is) with the gun. The weapons are the brains inside the agressors. Whoever thinks smarter and fights better wins. .22 - .50 caliber doesn't have a great deal to do with the equation. Thank you for the "vent," I needed that. Congrats on your gun. I think it's of historical relevance. But they don't teach history anymore. Ask any kid what the 49th State is, then as him/her how we got it, who bought it and when. They'll look at you like you're from outer space. You think any of them even know ABOUT what happened 59 years and 3 days ago on the beaches of Normandy. Give them a hint. Tell them Normandy's in France, not Alaska. Then raise my school taxes some more.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:08:42 AM EDT
Just so you know, Essential Arms were all investment cast, and not forged.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:28:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shaggy: Did you get any kind of verification that it really was used there? Did this little piece of history come with a video of some of the news footage? C'mon - lets see some pics!
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Yes, I have notarized documentation as to the authenticity of it. The owner of B&B Guns provided that. I also have a magazine article in SOF detailing the incident. Even though it wasn't actually used it's still interesting history and something very unique. There were 3 other AR rifles and 2 shotguns loaned to the police that day according to the stuff I got with my rifle.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:21:07 AM EDT
Running them over with the armored car probably would of worked
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:09:29 AM EDT
I hust bought an unfired preban Sendra 16 carbine from John Ross. He is going to include a signed letter of authenticity with the rifle. I never would have bought a preban because I dont believe they are worth any extra money but I bought this one because of who owned it. The price was very fair also. Good luck with your rifle.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:36:32 AM EDT
FED-up, Great post. Welcome to the site. I think we’re going to enjoy having you around. ldb, That’s a cool piece of history you have there. I once had a Lou Brock autographed baseball. My brother and I played with it until the autograph was no more. Take care of that history.
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