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Posted: 5/2/2003 5:20:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2003 6:51:50 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 5:34:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 6:51:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 11:05:17 AM EDT
I would say Beowulf. 1.) Most places that sell the Beowulf sell the reloading dies also. 2.) They also have a good supply of ammo which wont kill your pocket book. 3.) I think most places have them in stock. I want to get one. I have seen them at impactguns and Cabelas. Oz
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 11:22:03 AM EDT
If you want the big bore then you get the Beowulf. The L-W is all propreitary all the time. Prop mags, prop bullets, prop brass. Only L-W offers the loaded ammo, only L-W mags will work in L-W [b]properly[/b] in L-W guns, only bullets will be made by L-W. This all equals HUGE money. Potomac Arms in Alexandria, VA can get you a L-W if you want one. Although they don't have them ready for delivery as of two months ago. You can find Potomac Arms via Google. Zero Prince St is their address...... The Beowulf is available via Cabela's as is the ammo. Bullets are available via whoever is a vendor for IIRC 50AE bullets...{this may be wrong, but I'm not sure}. The L-W looks very, very stupid in person. The front four rail block looks idiotic in person. The barrel is black, not SS like the pics. L-W has been full of promises from a long time ago -- to date they have not really delivered on those promises.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 11:27:23 AM EDT
The entire L-W gun is $1400+ while the upper is $749 IIRC... I have ordered a custom 458 SOCOM from Teppojutsu for $780. This is made to order, not a vanilla mass produced upper. Working dust cover, A2 type FS, heavy under handguards barrel, but smaller diameter muzzle....CORBON has ordered 20,000 pieces of brass from Starline to be delivered in a few weeks if my source is right. CORBON should have 458 SOCOM ammo loaded to go out in a month maybe. My honest opinion is the 458 SOCOM is a better platform. BTW the LW499 bolt is nice, this is really the only piece that is noticably different from any other big bore AR. It is nice, but from what I have heard all around the horn is that the bolt design was not entirely necessary -- including use of 458 SOCOM in full auto as well as Beowulf in full auto.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 11:32:29 AM EDT
My choice would be "the professionals choice" the LW15.499. Sure it's dedicated, but it's all good. The rifle is $1,100.00 and the upper is $795 and both are available with stainless barrel options - black or unfinished. Ammo is cheaper than AA's and is available in 300gr training and duty rounds (2,200 fps) and 385gr hunting rounds (2,000 fps). Limited supply, but they are out there - most are going to military users - I disagree about the rail, useful and deflects the muzzle blast from the comp away from the operator, but that is a personal issue. I've seen them with floating handguards and carbine handguards too. Didn't someone on this board have one already?
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 11:36:50 AM EDT
Ed, LW have a video out at the moment (CD format) which explains why the bolt is the way it is and why it is necessary to have it that way. It's got some good FEA stuff which shows why you should only use this type of bolt in this type of weapon. E-mail or call them up.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 12:04:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: My choice would be "the professionals choice" the LW15.499. Sure it's dedicated, but it's all good. The rifle is $1,100.00 and the upper is $795 and both are available with stainless barrel options - black or unfinished. Ammo is cheaper than AA's and is available in 300gr training and duty rounds (2,200 fps) and 385gr hunting rounds (2,000 fps). Limited supply, but they are out there - most are going to military users - I disagree about the rail, useful and deflects the muzzle blast from the comp away from the operator, but that is a personal issue. I've seen them with floating handguards and carbine handguards too. Didn't someone on this board have one already?
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Since you seem to ALWAYS have differing info, why don't you start telling someone who matters that the PR for the gun SUCKS ASS! Oh yeah, L-W states that their brass should NOT be reloaded. So you will be buying NEW ammo every time, unless you just say F-it and reload it any way. Yeah, yeah source video from L-W.... Of course this will show why [b]their[/b] VERY EXPENSIVE BOLT redesign is necessary. Even though there are multiples of the Beowulf and SOCOM running around with ZERO problems in thousands and thousands of rounds. The price at Potomac Arms is $1400+, they are right down the street from L-W, wonder why this is when Paul Leitner-Wise hand delivered the demo unit to the store? I would think it would be lower so close to his shop. Guess not, I guess the 20 hour trip to Florida rolls some money off the price. [rolleyes] Yeah, the rail block is personal preference.....it looks idiotic functional OR not. I offered to buy the demo unit from Potomac Arms and asked for options. Told that this one was unavailable, there were no other options at that time. You seem to be the only one with info that is contrary to mine...... If you have an in, you may want to tell the guys at L-W that they need work on public image.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 12:14:48 PM EDT
Hey, don't beat me up. If you want to know facts, why don't you ask the people that make or buy the gun (as I do) - instead of listening to and repeating rumor? I have been following this program for some time (2 years +) and think that the 499 is a really good piece of kit and having fired all of the big bores out there, the LW gets my vote. That's all. BTW product and general liability insurance is a bitch, but I guess if you don't have it or offer warranties it doesn't matter what you let happen.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 12:29:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: Hey, don't beat me up. If you want to know facts, why don't you ask the people that make or buy the gun (as I do) - instead of listening to and repeating rumor? I have been following this program for some time (2 years +) and think that the 499 is a really good piece of kit and having fired all of the big bores out there, the LW gets my vote. That's all. BTW product and general liability insurance is a bitch, but I guess if you don't have it or offer warranties it doesn't matter what you let happen.
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Sir. I will tell you a fact. My communications with Leitner-Wise have gone unanswered. I have repeated facts above, as reiterated from my interaction with a L-W dealer. Not rumor, not supposed this and that.... Facts. Quite honestly I really don't care much. You want overpriced stuff, buy overpriced stuff. I'm sure the Win70 30-06 that Hatchcock used wouldn't be high on your list of equipment to use, nor would the Rem700 in .308 he used either since they were both "hunting rifles". "Professionals" use Glocks too......though I won't -- ever. I guess it's a preference. As far as ammo availability for the L-W.....I think going to Cabela's website to buy 50 Beowulf in whatever quantity is far easier than having to hunt for it from whatever sources you may have. Just my opinion. Further, every bit of information comes from the "source" the source being L-W -- my guess is they wouldn't ever bad mouth their own product, now would they? How many range reports do you want about the 458 SOCOM? How many do you want about the Beowulf? Can we get a range report from more than 5 people? To have a good sampling? How about some dealers of L-W products to get the market hype up? Agree to disagree. I think the level of customer service has ruined any product they will EVER produce.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 2:32:47 PM EDT
Specifically: I called L-W, referred them to this thread, they have never heard of you or from you. How can the product be overpriced when it is cheaper than all the competition???? I wouldn't use a Glock, but those that do by and large swear by them. Ammo is getting out there and direct from the manufacturer. LW will always discuss their product openly, they will let the buyer decide for themselves. Every professional organization that has tested all the mentioned weapons has rated the .499 the best. Most range reports are confidential, I'll see what I have. Agreed. Based upon your experience, others would disagree with you, can please all the people all the time. I suggest we let the products speak for themselves, I don't think you will ever give the gun a fair review, but I think there will be a few surprises down the road on this one.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 3:56:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: Specifically: I called L-W, referred them to this thread, they have never heard of you or from you.
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Yeah, I guess all my emails came when they "weren't taking any correspondance from the public, during their super duper time consuming R&D....." I've heard it before...when I tried to contact them, they had been "underground" for a month doing this research so I should just understand and get back to them. Without calling me a liar, you called me a liar -- I don't appreciate it. I've handled the thing with the intent of buying one RIGHT THEN....problem was I couldn't have one. This was post SHOT show, post public announcement of availability and at a dealer local to their operation. The gun was serialized as 000001......the dealer believed it was a demo model only. Why is that? Really, I don't care why that is.... Actually, I would give it a fair review if I could have bought it the 4 times I have tried. Two emails to them, one phone call to the site listed phone number, and one trip to a dealer. After all that, I decided that it was FAR TOO DIFFICULT TO BOTHER WITH..... To boot, I don't like the way it looks.....similar reasoning to why I won't buy or own a Glock. I'm sure it shoots fine and all, I like the teutonic feel of the H&K and SIG pistols. I'm sure it's a great redesign of the others that are out there and maybe everybody will start redesigning the bolt, but honestly I still haven't heard the horror stories that happened to L-W happen to AA or Teppo or Tromix... That again is not rumor, that is fact. I would have loved to get my hands on an upper when I went to buy the damn thing.......good luck for anyone trying to find one. If you want a firearm with similar ballistics, similar design and similar performance the Beowulf and ammo is available at Cabela's.... One phone call or click away..... Where can I definitely pick up an LW499 again? That's right I have to hunt one down.....[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 3:58:21 PM EDT
Impact Guns also stocks the Alexander Arms stuff.... As well as Fagan Gun's here in Southern Virginia.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:01:57 PM EDT
One question: Does the use of the dissipator type gas block on the LW499 disallow the use of a SIR or other handguards like the RAS or RAS II? The dealer was unsure......
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:26:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 6:38:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2003 6:43:22 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Wave: Please let us know which you get. The LW is likely a fine gun -- as is a S&W or a Glock. Won't buy a new Smith for their support of Clinton. Won't buy a Glock for their support of Ballistic Fingerprinting. Won't buy a LW for their lack of response. [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=157672&w=myTopicPop]LW Info Thread#1[/url] [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=152874&page=4]LW Info Thread #2[/url] Skim the first couple pages as this is mostly boring stuff.....pages 3 and 4 is when the real heavy hitter start showing up..... Ed
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 7:07:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 8:26:17 PM EDT
HI, WAVE, I am also looking at moving up to a 50. I have look into the BEOWULF for a long time and plan on buying it in August. I have seen the LEITNER WISE, after reading about it here , I would and I going to get the 50 BEOWULF. For one thing it pushes a 400 grain at 1800fps, I reload along with most here, you can do that with the BEOWULF but no with the LEITNER. And mags, you can use the same for your AR and the BEOWULF, the LEITNER can't. Looking at this logically the 50 BEOWULF is far more practical, not to mention with the BEOWULF ammo is easier to get. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:15:58 PM EDT
Ed, you can fit any handguard or rail system to the L-W, the gas block is a very low profile item and does not effect standard accessories - we tested with and without the RAS. L-W was not and never has been a sub-contractor for Alexander Arms. The principals of Alexander Arms used to work for a subsidiary company of L-W. Alexander Arms is NOT a government contractor so it is hard to see how any government agency or special ops team could buy from them! The .499 is a type classified military cartridge (50 Beowulf and 458 SOCOM are not) and will - like the 50 beowulf, feed from a standard mag - the only thing is - you can only get five to seven rounds out of it. Stick with a dedicated 10 rounder. My prediction is go with the LW.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:20:02 PM EDT
Ed, I didn't nor wouldn't call you a liar. You said you contacted them - they say they have no record of communications from you. Methinks communication problems. But between you and them. My calls are answered and so are my buddies. Call them.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:43:47 PM EDT
I personally am extremely happy with my .458SOCOM Tromix. The necked case (I believe) is a better design. I like the ballistics options available to me from all the 45-70 bullets I can choose from. And the most important thing you could ask for, it runs like a top. Not one problem yet. (admittedly only about 4 mags worth so far) I know ammo is a little mia right now (.458S is not the only one mia BTW), but that will change, and I can load my own. JMHO.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:50:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 8:05:33 PM EDT by longshot_va]
Oh, I know you didn't ask about the .458. so apologies for hijacking your thread. Re: your question, I like the Beowulf, but not enough to get one. My babies: [img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-4/148693/QJMPSWXVSCTTRGRHL[NP-tromix01b.jpg" width=322 height=320[/img] [url]www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=214651[/url] Cheers! --LS [edited to enter correct image tag]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:49:12 AM EDT
WAVE, Do a arf.com search on Beowulf, Leitner Wise, and .458 and look at what's out there. Then let us know where your thoughts are. Curious as to what you think... --LS
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 6:00:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 6:05:45 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 6:53:24 AM EDT
You could get one in 440 Corbon Mag, there's one on the EE right now. Ammo is available from Corbon. There is also a Desert Eagle chambered in that caliber. There is also the 50AE. Corbon should have the ammo out for the 458 SOCOM shortly. They ordered a huge run of brass from Starline recently. It was due in 6 weeks or something and that was at the end of February....... Both [url=www.tromix.com]Tromix[/url] and [url=www.TeppoJutsu.com]TeppoJutsu[/url] can make a 458 Upper.....custom for you. I think that Corbon may even start diversifing their SOCOM cartridge selection to include a subsonic load. That IS rumor however.....[:D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 6:56:11 AM EDT
Any issues with using a Rock River 2 stage or similar trigger with a Beowulf upper/ammo? This looks to be a fun short-medium range deer thumper.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:04:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:06:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wave: The TeppoJutsu link does not work
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[URL]WWW.TEPPOJUTSU.COM[/URL]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:08:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SP10: Any issues with using a Rock River 2 stage or similar trigger with a Beowulf upper/ammo? This looks to be a fun short-medium range deer thumper.
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I used a RRA 2 stage in my Tromix 458 SOCOM, the pin sizes should be standard on the Beowulf. This would make an EXCELLENT deer thumper. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 10:28:46 PM EDT
As queried by Hipshooter as to how a product can be over-priced when it is the cheapest one, the answer is simple. Even the cheapest price product can still be over-priced if all the products in the category are over-priced. The cheapest may not be over-priced relative to others in the category, but may be over-priced in regard to attributes such as craftsmanship, durability, etc. As for Hipshooter's query about how it could be that the military is buying Beowulfs from Alexander Arms and AA not being a government contractor, the answer is also simple here. They are a contractor. In fact, the Beowulf was designed via funding provided by the military. AA is actually located on a military facility in Radford, Virginia. Alexander Arms is NOT a government contractor so it is hard to see how any government agency or special ops team could buy from them!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:11:28 AM EDT
00spy6, just a couple of points, all the guns are tremendous value for money in terms of what you are getting - essentially a compact AR10. I'm afraid to say that Alexander Arms are not government contractors, the company is foreign owned, the funding WAS NOT provided by the military and Radford is a commercial industrial area.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:20:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: Radford is a commercial industrial area.
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With a DOD ID needed to gain access to their shop? They are on the Radford Arsenal grounds, leasing space from the government. At least they were last year when I talked to them.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:59:45 AM EDT
You can rent space there, it's a commercial venture run by the army
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:07:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: You can rent space there, it's a commercial venture run by the army
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From friends who live there {Radford} -- you can't just drive on the facility. Maybe YOU can with proper ID, but I can't. [url]http://www.alexanderarms.com/facilities.html[/url] Ed
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 8:53:22 AM EDT
Fantasy Land
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:16:02 PM EDT
HipFiredGun is correct. They rent space just like Ares does. Makes it LOOK like they're in w/ the gubmint. Anyone can rent space there.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:40:01 PM EDT
I am not saying they are gov't -- I am saying that I was told that I can not drive up to their front door without prior arrangement/proper ID. By them last year, then by friend's from the Radford area. Is this false?
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:14:13 AM EDT
Proper ID? A Driving License (or any photo ID) suffices.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:23:59 AM EDT
In any case it doesn't matter, it's all about the products yeah? not the marketing BS.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:30:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 6:31:19 AM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: In any case it doesn't matter, it's all about the products yeah? not the marketing BS.
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You're right! So the Beowulf is: 1) Less Expensive than the 499LW. About $100 less. Upper vs. Upper. 2) Ballistically similar, within 100-200fps 3) Widely available via Cabela's and Impact Guns 4) Accepts unmodified USGI mags. 5) Reloading components widely available from dealers, with no stated restrictions on reloading. 6) Loaded ammo widely available from Cabela's and Impact guns in at least two variations. Did I miss anything?
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:57:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SP10: Any issues with using a Rock River 2 stage or similar trigger with a Beowulf upper/ammo? This looks to be a fun short-medium range deer thumper.
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I love mine Beowulf. I bought an upper and min is on a Oly lower with a RRA trigger. Nothing but reliable
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:14:05 PM EDT
Ok Ed, we agree! but 3) applies to both but only 5 to 7 rounds. Warranties? Guess that's about it. How's the 458 by the way?
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:57:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 2:00:17 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: How's the 458 by the way?
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The two standard A3 uppers I had were stellar. Extremely accurate using irons or optics to 100yds. They were so nice in fact I have a custom one ordered from MartytW as we speak. I wanted something more closely resembling an A3 AR15, and the match grade pac-nor barrels were giving me away.[:D] Also not very "tactical". I also wanted a threaded barrel for the addition of a can later on, as well as a working FH and dust cover. I like the care and delicacy with which MartytW and TonyR assembled their uppers, I don't think I would now buy a Beowulf or 499LW unless I just wanted something to have it. I will likely set up my loading station this weekend and attempt to learn reloading.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 2:15:09 PM EDT
Very Coooool.....pics? Let me know how you get on with the reloading, it's an art!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 3:53:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: Very Coooool.....pics?
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[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=11662[/img] 458 SOCOM A3 with working dust cover and FH
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:05:08 AM EDT
Very nice, what's the barrel diameter under the front sight? By the way, I notice it's on a nice soft cloth - was this when it was new-born or are all your toys treated this way? Also, you ever had any feed problems or marks on the brass? Ever had any marks on the cases from the lower lugs on the bolt as it moves backwards? Just asking.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:19:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 6:32:29 PM EDT by MartytW]
HipFired - On SHIVAN's upper, as well as typically on any of the 458 SOCOM uppers we build, we use 1.00" under the hand gaurd, 15/16" at the gas block and 0.93" to the muzzle. That said, as each upper (except the current Group Purchase) is built to the customer's specifications, as long as it does not compromise the safety of the upper we can incorporate most any feature available on the AR-15. We have built them using the Hi Rise, the Lo Pro, the DPMS A3 flat top, the RRA A4 flat top, the Les Baer flat top, standard M-4 hand gaurds, standard rifle length hand gaurds, a variety of free float hand gaurds as well as the ARMS SIR system. Barrel lengths from 7.5" to 24", custom gas blocks, Dissipator-type configurations, custom A2 bird cage flash hiders, the list goes on. Did you have any particular configuration in mind? On feeding issues, I will be totally frank, and last year we had a batch that showed a feed issue with the 300 gr factory load. We have since resolved that after using a root cause analysis to determine the source of the problem. As all uppers are tested before shipment, we caught the issue with all but two uppers, and those two have since been addressed under warranty. Marks on the brass - not from the bolt lugs, however, on occassion the extension will leave small marks on the shoulder. The brass remains fully servicable, though. Towel - to cover up other items on the bench and give a nice background for the picture. Also, we go over the uppers for cosmetic blemishes before packing and shipping. So we pack on the towel, so the customer gets the upper in "newborn" condition. Question/observation - surprised that the Beowulf will only do 5/7 rounds in the mag, we can use 10 rounds in a GI 30 rounder without having any issues brought to our attention. To accomodate loading, we cut a small semi-circular relief in the front, it is not needed for the round the clear the mag when firing. Hope this answers your questions Marty ter Weeme Teppo Jutsu LLC edited to add the reply regarding the towel and the magazine capacity
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 9:29:56 AM EDT
Thanks Marty, all the info I needed. I guess the difference between the .458 and the Beowulf is the fact that yours is a shouldered case as opposed to a straight-walled case. The 458 is able to negotiate the curve of the standard magazine as a result - am I correct? Configuration for me, as close to a military look as possible. Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 7:34:35 PM EDT
HipFiredGun - When you say "military look", that is a rather wide range, given that depending on your MOS you qualify for different goodies and options. Assume we use a flat top, standard hand gaurds, parkerized CrMo barrel, A2 front sight, flash hider - similar to a M4gery. We cannot duplicate the exact barrel diameters of the M-4, but create a similar look. Or else an A2 receiver, rifle length HG, A2 front sight, 20" with flash hider. And yes, the round can "negotiate the turn", it will even successfully feed from the USA brand 40-rounders (finally a good use for those!). I have yet to try one of the MWG 90-round snail drums, but the thought of over 2.5 lbs just in bullet weight makes me hesitate hanging that from the mag catch (30 rounds of 600 gr subsonic loads) Did we perchance speak on the phone some time ago about this type of configuration? Marty
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 10:03:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2003 10:07:18 PM EDT by TonyRumore]
OK, Marty, I can't resist.............."resolved that after using a ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS to determine......." Teppo Jutsu, applying for the Malcolm Baldridge award in 2004. ;-) Here at Tromix, we just drink another beer and think about it........ Tony Rumore Tromix Corp
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