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Posted: 4/25/2003 5:11:39 PM EDT
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Man...I REALLY don't want to start any kind of pissing contest, especially since I'm kinda new here. But here it goes, what would be the all around better "battle" / "home defense" rifle? It would be used indoors and outdoors...at ranges up to 300 yards. I'm not concerned with the over penetration of the .308 because I live by myself, and there aren't any neighbors close enough to be effected by the round. Are they both just as reliable as one another? I want maximum damage to the object I am shooting at. I'm a little apprehensive about buying a rifle that shoots the .223. It was clearly designed for varmints...a 6-foot 250 pound tyrant doesn't strike me as a varmint. It just doesn't seem to have that much stopping power to me. But then again...I have never shot the .223, so I can't honestly say what it would do. That's why I want your help. I have been lurking the forums for quite some time, and respect the opinions of you fellow gun owners. I have a Remington 700 PSS in .308, and I love the round...which is why I even considered a FAL in the first place. This way, if the S ever HTF...I can use my rifle ammo universally. The Kimber 1911 for short-range defense, the FAL for medium-range defense, the Rem. 700 for long-range defense. Sounds like a good idea to me...but I want your opinions before I drop the cash on a "battle" rifle. What makes the AR-15 such a good battle rifle? I can understand our forces using them. Hell, they have air and ground support, not to mention 8 to 20 other soldiers that also have this puny round in their weapon. So the size of the round when you have a group soldiers firing on you really doesn't matter. Sorry if this has been discused before, but I want to know that I'm getting the best bang for my buck. The models I am considering are the Bushmaster XM15 A3 Target versus the DSA SA58 Medium Contour. Anyone have any info that can steer me one way or another? Your help is greatly appreciated. And hell...if your near Saint Louis, MO...come on by...we'll go to the range for a little target practice once I get what I'm after. THANKS!!!!!!!!! - John |
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5.56 can cause pretty serious wounds as long as the velocity is high enough to cause the round to fragment. An AR is lighter and easier to maneuver inside the house. If you are more likely to have to use the rifle at 300 yard type ranges (not a lot of scenarios where I can picture that) than a 308 would be better. Honestly I am not sure it matters, I think how much you practice with it is many many times more important than whether you get an AR v. a FAL/G-3/SAR-2 etc. Personally I would normally grab my AR in the house over my HK-91 as it's easier for me to go through doors, down hallways and around corners with. |
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Hey John..I have several FN's and ARs. I would not feel undergunned with the AR. For one thing, it has been used in many wars and conflicts, and I can't think of too many times people have wanted more, with the exception of penetration at greater range. If you use it in your house, either one will incapacitate instantly with a solid hit. You will probably be deaf for the rest of your life if you touch one off indoors. Yes, the 7.62 hits harder, but then so does the .50, and 20mm, and so on. The 223/5.56 does so much tissue damage that a 300 pound fellow will stop what he is doing instantly. You noticed the sniper guy in DC didn't have anyone run away once they were hit. The chances of anyone attacking you with body armour on are very remote...not to worry. It is a very lethal round because it is light in weight and disperses most of its energy in the target (BG) as opposed to taking some of the energy with it as it exits. If you have any doubts about how bad it would be to get hit with one, go shoot a woodchuck or something of the sort with the AR cartridge. I say that because lately I can't get any human targets to volunteer for my ballistics testing. One of my friends has shot a number of deer with his. I would go with the experience of the military. At first everybody badmouthed the AR because it wasn't a "man's" gun. After some years in the field, it seems to do its intended job well enough. Someone else said that one gun can't fulfill the roles that are required in each seperate situation. Pretty true. It's not a sniper gun, but then I wouldn't want to be in another battle with a bolt gun with scope either. When the military went from 45/70 cartridges to .30 calibers, there was a lot of grumbling, but that also went away. OF course, it is all a matter or personal opinion/preference. If you prefer the FN, by all means buy one. The AR will do a great job protecting your hide and home. So will the FN. |
| I guess I tend to think of the AR-10 and FAL as opposed to the FAL and the AR-15. However, as "Aimless" says above, with an adequate barrel length (probably about 18.25") the AR-15's velocity is plenty to kill as well as knock down. Some times I think we've forgotten that our black rifle came out of an Army program in the 1950's that was SCHV - Small Caliber High Velocity. Shorten the barrel enough and you take off enough velocity that you simply have a .22 left. (Yeah, I know carbines look cool and I've got some too !!) |
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I own both and that was the only solution to the same dilema I could come up with. The .308 does hit harder farther and will penetrate more than the .223. However, the little ole ARs are very easy to shoot accurately and quickly and I most certainly don't feel naked with one. Even if you reload, you can still shoot the AR for much less money - which translates into more practice. Another thing, there are a lot of FAL variants on the market today and it has been my experience that quality ones costs in excess of $1,200. Most all I see of the cheaper ones are just plain junk. On the other hand, you can buy an excellent AR for $750 - $1,000. |
| If you want max damage in your house CQB situation maybee 12gauge would be a better choice. If your' trying to justify an AR purchase on the premis of self defense/medium range effect. You won't be dissapointed with the 5.56 round. If your comparring 5.56 vs 7.62 they both "work" within thier limitations. If you'r comparing the FAL vs AR, well, you are on the AR site. I own a G-3 and AR's .In most situations I would feel more comfortable with the AR. |
| I have the perfect test for you to make up your mind. Load up 12 mags of each, load up the guns with all the do-dads you want and go to your nearest forest and walk around for 8 hours. See which one you prefer after that..lol. I just shot a G3 the other day and much rather prefer my 16 in bushy. |
| I own both. Both are great tools. Niether are my home defense guns though. For that I have a 18" barrel 12 ga and a .45 Witness. Both are deadly in the house. For a grab and go rifle the FAL , AR or AK will all suffice. AR is lighter and so is ammo. AK or FAL is, IMHO, more lethal. Of course, how much "dead" does the crook have to be? |
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Have you considered an [url=http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10a4_spr.htm]AR-10[/url]? Or an [url=http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10a4_cabine.htm]AR-10 carbine[/url]? Or an [url=http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/SOFrifles.htm]AR-10 M4gery[/url]? |
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Quoted: I own both. Both are great tools. Niether are my home defense guns though. For that I have a 18" barrel 12 ga and a .45 Witness. Both are deadly in the house. For a grab and go rifle the FAL , AR or AK will all suffice. AR is lighter and so is ammo. AK or FAL is, IMHO, more lethal. Of course, how much "dead" does the crook have to be? Pretty much what [B]he[/B] said....'cept my "home defense" firearms are a 20" bbl Benelli Super 90 "Defense" and a 4" Smith Mod. 66-1 in.357 Mag. The FAL is just about as reliable as any AK, can be "quality" bought for the same price as an AR-15, mags are less than 1/2 the cost of AR mags in similar condition, 7.62 surplus is currently cheaper than 5.56mm, [B]AND[/B] the 7.62 will hit harder, further and deeper than the 5.56mm. [B]HOWEVER[/B], the "puny" 5.56mm will stop pretty much any fight under 300 meters, is alot easier to "tote around" (as well as it's ammo) and canbe fired more easilly in rapid strings (with some sort of excuse for accuracy). Truely, you're comparing "apples to oranges"...the two are designed for different roles...long range "European" battlefields vs. "Jungle" warfare (though interestingly enough, both have been used in [B]both[/B] roles). Face it....you'll eventually end up with both anyway! LOL |
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Quoted: I have the perfect test for you to make up your mind. Load up 12 mags of each, load up the guns with all the do-dads you want and go to your nearest forest and walk around for 8 hours. See which one you prefer after that..lol! YEP! I like my AR's cause they're light, handy, well made, plenty of parts/magazines/ammo available, easy to maintain and easy to work on with minimal tools. Try changing the barrel on an AK! Also, ask yourself how far you would actually be shooting at [i]"a 6-foot 250 pound tyrant."[/i] 300 meters is the furthest a basic training soldier shoots to qualify with his M16. Thats 328 yards. Consistantly scoring a hit at 328 yards with iron sights is pretty good, but beyond that requires a steady diet of carrots and much much practice. .223 is more than adequate out to 300 meters. No worries here. [:D] |
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AR vs FN for home defense? Neither! AR-15: $700.00 + FN: $500.00 + Kiss it goodbye after they scrape the intruder off the wall. $500-900 not a problem to piss away that kind of money for your posterior? Forget I said this then. Otherwise go with a 12-gauge like a Mossberg 500 series. Aiming skills aren't required and worst case scenario is that you are out $200 bucks instead of a premium rifle & pre-ban magazine. Now if a truckload of hooligans rolls up the driveway, (AKA SHTF) I would opt for an AR in 16" configuration. FNs are fine too and you're the one to pick, so it's your call in the end. I have seen some gruesome ballistics on the .223 (given proper velocity, which would be the case given your specs) to ever worry about the "varmint-sized" load. BTW good choice on Bushmaster if you go that way. And remember, muzzle brakes are not a good thing when it comes to home defense, unless you typically walk around in earplugs. |
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I have both and I prefer the 16" AR for home defense. Contrary to popular wivestales, 12gauge is not the best home defense weapon. Slugs and buckshot are the only appropriate AP rounds and both are too likely to overpenetrate in a HD situation. They are high impulse arms that are difficult to fire quickly especially if a wife or child is required to use it. They are not very ergonomic and are hard to fire from less than ideal positions. They are slow to reload and pump guns require the use of two hands at all times. If one hand is injured in a fight i.e. shot, cut, or smashed from defensive blocking of an attack- you're shit out of luck. Oh wait, I forgot, that chick in T2 pumped and fired her shotgun one handed (lol).A lightweight rifle or carbine can still be fired as with a reasonable amount of accuracy from accross the room. |
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Well, if yer thinking SHTF... In the house, you'll probably have no choice but to engage. 200 yards+, you'll probably have the choice not to engage. It isn't a videogame, and you probably won't be concerned with the highest kill count, but surviving. .223 is better close range, and as said, try lugging around 200 or 300 rounds of .308 loaded in mags and the gun. You'll probably have to hunt for food too. .223 will be much better for small game, and for hunting I would rather have the AR's accuracy. |
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THANKS for the info everyone. Redleg99, yes I have considered the AR-10 line...I think those are more of a safe queen/range rifle than a battle rifle. Overall, it seems like a great idea...take the contour of an M16, and build a .30 caliber rifle around it...GREAT. But the one I fired was finicky about it's ammo, and FTF 3 times in a half-hour period. I will probably just end up getting both the DSA SA58, and the 20" Bushmaster. I think everyone here knew I was going to say that. [:D] LOL. I will get the FAL first, then pick up a Bushy when I find one for the right price. The AR-15 platform just seems like one of those firearms everyone should own. And I especially like the fact that they are highly modifiable. Again, your info is greatly appreciated! - John |
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I find these threads funny everytime I read one. If you only have a certain amount of money to spend then buy what you can afford. If cash is not an issue then buy them all as you have alluded to. I just buy what I want at the time and then buy more or different ones later. I enjoy shooting everything I have and would not hesitate to use any of them for self defense if I was forced to do so. It is the collecting of variety of firearms and the time a the range that I enjoy about this sport. Buy them all! Enjoy them all! |
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LOL I know what you mean BUSH_SNIPER, I hesitated to post this...because I didn't want to be one of "those people" that try to compare apples to oranges. This check from the IRS is burning a hole in my pocket, and I was just trying to get the opinions of everyone here (and other boards) before I made a semi-auto rifle purchase. The firearm would be my go-to rifle if I was thrown into a hairy situation. But I guess you all have confirmed what I was already thinking... Just get both and train with both, damnit. Your help is appreciated. - John |
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READ THIS!!!! [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/problemswith556.msnw[/url] [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/bhdweaponreferences.msnw[/url] If you like .308 get and the AR look get an AR-10, but these two articles will let you know how effective a 5.56 or .223 really is. True story and stats from the real Black Hawk Down. |
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HI, I look forward to the new round we all are hearing about,if its a 6.8 mm or something else. I think this up-grade will kill all the 223 talk with the AR15. I too think it is a little to small but when this up-grade to a bigger round comes the AR15 will be the perfect weapon. Thanks,Kev |
| First of all to consider a French rifle at this time. [b]How un-patriotic!! [/b] Just kidding. You need to check out the ballistics on the 5.56 round. It was effective as the sniper rifle in Washington (I am in no way endorsing what that bastard did) because of its terminal ballistics. A 5.56 is not dependent upon fragmentation in that it tumbles inside the body. This generates a wound cavity equal to the length of the round. The problem with the 308 for home defense is that it tends to completely pierce the human body at close ranges and has no chance to either fragment or tumble. So, you end up with a .3" hole straight through. Your best bet for all around defence is the 5.56. If your primary ranges are long distance, the decrease in velocity suffered by the 308's heavier bullet makes it more effective at distance and actually makes for a better sniper type rifle. But, this is primarily for ranges from 300 to 1500 yards properly scoped. If you refer to line 1. and still want a 308, get yourself an AR10 from Armalite. Make sure that you get a couple of 5 round mags so you can also use it for Bambi. |
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